Root aphids are destroying me, please help!

I think I have root aphids, I'm not quite sure if it's them or gnats but based on the problems I'm seeing I think I have RA. I'm 15 days into flower right now and just spent the last hour and a half plucking bananas off my girls. It has to be RA because it can't be anything else. They haven't been getting over-fed, I water them every 3-4 days, and I have no light leaks (I made sure to check before I even flowered). The only thing that makes sense is that I have bugs. I know my yields are going to suffer, as they have my last few harvests because of these bugs but is there anything I can do to minimize the damage? I know being in flower really screws me over now, but is there anything I can do to make it so I only lose half my yield instead of 3/4 of it? I would greatly appreciate any help because I've stumped..

I have the following symptoms:

- "Phantom" deficiencies. Various plants in my garden are showing Cal/Mag deficiencies. I use RO water with Cal/Mag added into it since my tap water is much too hard (350ppms). Cal/Mag seemed to fix some of the problemed leaves, but there are some that seem to be getting slowly worse.

- Growth is stringy and has now begun to stunt. I was getting decent growth the last few days, now they have stopped.

I've attempted the following:

- Diatomaceous Earth. Top dressed with this and got rid of a decent amount, but of course not all of them.

- Neem oil drench. Drenched with neem oil a few days ago, seemed to help a little but I obviously still have some critters in my soil that the neem oil didn't kill. Plus, in my research I've found many people claim Neem oil drenches cause more problems than they fix, is this true?

Can I keep at it with these two or will I need to bring in more firepower? I've been doing a lot of research and these products seem to come up a lot, but they seem to have negative effects sometimes as well. I was hoping someone here could chime in and let me know what the best way to deal with these bugs is without killing by microbes. I have yet to buy any new forms of pesticide because in the past few weeks of research I still can't find a definitive answer. I have very little money now and whatever I buy I need to make sure it will work for sure.

Azamax: This seems to be the most reliable method that has been brought up. However, I heard that this can kill microbes as it isn't 100% organic? Should I just cut my losses, drench with Azamax and inoculate with guano/insect frass teas to re-inoculate the soil?

SNS 203: I've used this before I grew organic and it worked pretty well, it's just pricey is all. Furthermore, I've read this will kill your microbes as well. Is this even a viable option?

Nemotodes/Dunks/Gnatrol/etc: I've read these will destroy gnats, but won't quite work on RAs? I've also read that neem oil/Azamax will kill nemotodes as well. I'd also have to wait for the nematodes to reproduce enough to start combating the pests.

Insect Frass: I've read brewing a tea with this is great for minimizing damage done because of the chitin in the frass. However it seems like this is more for prevention than for curing? Should I get this as well as nemotodes or azamax?

Does any one have any sort of advice to give at all? I could really use some help here and I'm tired of crappy yields What do you guys think is the absolute best pesticide? Seeing as I'm in week 2 of flower I'm hoping I can reduce some damage? Should I keep top dressing with DE until the pesticide shows up? Thanks for any and all help!

omni tree and shrub pesticide i think it is but in small dose that shit is sestemic im not shure but that will kill root aphids and so will azosol neem powder water soluable good luck..

ow by the way this neem kills ever thing no joke thrips mites and anything its safer than all the others oils sucks big time this shit is the bomb!!!!!

Interesting really.

I've had problems with "phantom deficiencies" and suddenly halted or slowed growth. Never really found exact causes or solutions... You're right, they do all seem to resemble cal/mag deficiencies, but I think a lot of the time it was me being lazy and not dechlorinating my water.

Neem oil is meant to be used scarcely because even though it is organic, it's quite harsh. I used a heavy treatment once for my reservoir to kill fungus knats and larvae and shit, it almost killed all of my plants. But it worked. lol

I'm interested to see what's up with your stuff though.

rosemary oil and dr.bronners lavender soap. soil drench.
rosemary 2-3 tsp, soap 10 tbsp for 5 gal of water. or brew a botanical teas for a couple days. A couple handfuls of dried rosemary and dried lavender. or mix and match

also top dress worm castings. it has the same effect on aphids as gnats

neem is an inhibitor. If not diluted enough it will suffocate roots.

Azamax is 100% organic and safe to use. If you go this route, it's 1 tablespoon per gallon of water applied as a drench every week. Another product I've heard works well is OG Bio War. It's a fungal tea, and it works by attaching itself to a host and sucking the life out of it. Might be worth looking in to. Good luck

Step 1 is to know what you're up against. You said yourself that you don't even know that it's root aphids.

You say that DE "got rid of a decent amount", as in you were able to see insects flying around or crawling on the soil surface?

Just trying to wrap my head around your situation and make sure you aren't actually CAUSING the problems by chasing your tail over a simple fungus gnat infestation.

hyroot said:

rosemary oil and dr.bronners lavender soap. soil drench.
rosemary 2-3 tsp, soap 10 tbsp for 5 gal of water. or brew a botanical teas for a couple days. A couple handfuls of dried rosemary and dried lavender. or mix and match

also top dress worm castings. it has the same effect on aphids as gnats

neem is an inhibitor. If not diluted enough it will suffocate roots.

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Oh wow what a great idea! I think I'll do this in combination with Azamax, that should get rid of these fuckers! Definitely gonna get more EWC and top dress with that as well. Thanks for taking the time to help

SpicySativa said:

Step 1 is to know what you're up against. You said yourself that you don't even know that it's root aphids.

You say that DE "got rid of a decent amount", as in you were able to see insects flying around or crawling on the soil surface?

Just trying to wrap my head around your situation and make sure you aren't actually CAUSING the problems by chasing your tail over a simple fungus gnat infestation.

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This is very true, however all of the signs I have point to root aphids and not gnats. I read the following thread on ICMag

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=159960

This article makes it seem like my problem is in fact aphids and not gnats. He says that gnats are stupid and they'll just float along in the air and will be easy to catch, kill, and observe. The RAs however, will actively avoid your attempts to catch or kill them. Every time I attempt to catch one of these things to study it they actively avoid my ass.

Now, my room isn't exactly the most professional setup in the world of course.. but there isn't anything in the room causing stress aside from bugs. All LED lights in the room (AC, power strips, etc) are covered in duct tape. All cracks are sealed with duct tape or caulk. I know for sure I haven't been over-feeding them either. Plants have vegged for 6 weeks and have been in flower 16 days now and in all that time I've barely fed them. They got one veg tea and one flower tea (using Rev's TLO recipes) and I watered with EWC teas like 3-4 times overall. Every other time has just been plain RO water with Cal/Mag. I switched to RO water thinking my tap water was causing the problems (350+ppms) and although this has fixed a lot of problems, I'm still getting phantom deficiencies. The phantom deficiencies are mainly Cal/Mag, the leaves are a bit darker than usual so I may have too much N in the soil as well?

Let me detail how the bugs have been acting as well, hopefully that will help you help me as well? I vegged for 4 weeks in 1 gallon pots under a T5 bulb, then I transplanted them into 7 gallon geopots with supersoil and some DE and put them under a 1000 watt Metal Halide for another 2 weeks. The first week under the 1000 watt I saw a few fliers around, but ignored them not knowing how bad gnats/aphids could truly be. A week later, they had multiplied and I had quite a few fliers in the room and it was at this point I knew I had a problem. From this point, up until a few days ago I've been top dressing with DE and it has definitely been getting rid of the adults. I only see like one or two flies in the room, but tonight when the lights are on they'll probably be some more and I'll need to apply more DE until the azamax comes in.

In your experience, what is it you think I might be doing to the plants attempting to fix this? I mean, I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure that I have aphids in my soil still. I've taken care of the adults, but all the damage is caused by the eggs/larvae which the DE doesn't hurt. I would think this explains my problems, but if you think I don't have RA and can prove so you would make me so happy! I'm pretty damn sure I have RAs though Thanks for the reply Spicy!

UncleReemis said:

Interesting really.

I've had problems with "phantom deficiencies" and suddenly halted or slowed growth. Never really found exact causes or solutions... You're right, they do all seem to resemble cal/mag deficiencies, but I think a lot of the time it was me being lazy and not dechlorinating my water.

Neem oil is meant to be used scarcely because even though it is organic, it's quite harsh. I used a heavy treatment once for my reservoir to kill fungus knats and larvae and shit, it almost killed all of my plants. But it worked. lol

I'm interested to see what's up with your stuff though.

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Hey man, you should check out that ICMag thread I posted in response to Spicy's question. Does this scenario sound familiar? You get pretty good veg growth and no problems throughout veg, then when you put them into flower they start off pretty nice for the first week. But after week 2 of flower you start noticing problems. Phantom deficiencies start popping up, growth comes to a complete stop, and your buds just don't look very amazing ever. Come harvest time, you get fluffy airy nugs and about 1/4 the weight you should have.

I've been dealing with this for the last 2 years I've been messing with organics. I can't seem to do it right and couldn't figure out why. Turns out I wasn't screwing everything up like I thought, I was just ignoring an RA infestation! There are tons of things to put in your soil while it cooks to prevent an infestation, but since I wasn't that smart I need a way to fight these guys now. Another reason for me posting this thread is because I read exactly what you said about neem oil a few days ago and would rather not do any more drenches if possible. Here's hoping you don't have RAs though!

st0wandgrow said:

Azamax is 100% organic and safe to use. If you go this route, it's 1 tablespoon per gallon of water applied as a drench every week. Another product I've heard works well is OG Bio War. It's a fungal tea, and it works by attaching itself to a host and sucking the life out of it. Might be worth looking in to. Good luck

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Good to hear, it's looking like I'm definitely grabbing some Azamax today and watering with that when the girls get dry. I'll look into finding that OG Bio War, couldn't find it on Amazon so perhaps my hydro store has it? I was wanting to make an Insect Frass tea to use in conjunction with the Azamax. Right now its looking like I'll alternate between Azamax and the Rosemary/Pepperment oil drenches. Then once things are a bit under control I'll get the Insect Frass/EWC tea going to get some chitin and other beneficials in the soil to help against pests/disease. Thanks for your help!


Sorry for such a huge post, just thought I'd do this all in one reply so as not to spam Again, I really really really appreciate your guys' input. All of these problems have been quite discouraging so it's nice to know there are people willing to help noobs like myself!

Interesting... thank you for that. I had a problem with some root pests my first grow, learned a few things firsthand from that shit lol. I'll have to take preventative steps this grow so I don't have to wage a war with bugs.

UncleReemis said:

Interesting... thank you for that. I had a problem with some root pests my first grow, learned a few things firsthand from that shit lol. I'll have to take preventative steps this grow so I don't have to wage a war with bugs.

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Yeah same here man, fortunately they're quite easy to prevent.. however if you don't prevent them you'll be at war with them forever. This war I'm fighting is pretty much going to be a losing battle. It's just a matter of if I want to lose 100% or if I want to lose 25% at this point :/

I still say that STEP 1 is to confirm that you actually have root aphids. Pick up a few sticky traps and a magnifying glass; then you will know.

I'm just very leery of these root aphid "articles" on ICmag or other forums. With all their talk of "phantom deficiencies", they tend to make many newer growers jump to conclusions. For example (and I honestly don't mean to point fingers here) you say you are sure you aren't over feeding your plants, but you also say the leaves are darker than usual (indicating the beginnings of nitrogen toxicity). The fact that your plants are throwing lots of male flowers implies that they got stressed at some point. This could have been insect related, or it could have been the plant's reaction to your "veg tea", given that it doesn't sound like they received any liquid feed before that point.

Again, really not trying to imply you're doing anything wrong, I just suggest making 100% sure you're fighting the right battle. If you are able to determine 100% that they are root aphids, then you can react accordingly.

SpicySativa said:

I still say that STEP 1 is to confirm that you actually have root aphids. Pick up a few sticky traps and a magnifying glass; then you will know.

I'm just very leery of these root aphid "articles" on ICmag or other forums. With all their talk of "phantom deficiencies", they tend to make many newer growers jump to conclusions. For example (and I honestly don't mean to point fingers here) you say you are sure you aren't over feeding your plants, but you also say the leaves are darker than usual (indicating the beginnings of nitrogen toxicity). The fact that your plants are throwing lots of male flowers implies that they got stressed at some point. This could have been insect related, or it could have been the plant's reaction to your "veg tea", given that it doesn't sound like they received any liquid feed before that point.

Again, really not trying to imply you're doing anything wrong, I just suggest making 100% sure you're fighting the right battle. If you are able to determine 100% that they are root aphids, then you can react accordingly.

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No, you're 100% correct and I do appreciate it a ton! When my lights come on at 7pm tonight I'll post some pictures for you guys to give you a better idea of things. I'm growing out two strains now, Fruity Pebbles OG and Crystal OG. Most of the FPOG have the bananas on them where as the Crystals have absolutely no bananas on them. The Crystals are showing Cal/Mag deficiencies worse than the FP are however. The FPOG has some cal/mag deficiencies but not as bad as the Crystal. Also, the Crystal doesn't have beginning signs of N toxicity, only the FPOG has N toxicity. The guy I got the cuts from did say the Fruity Pebbles will hermie on you if it gets stressed. I can't think of anything more stressful to a plant than to have a bunch of larvae/eggs chewing at the roots. I could see how an N toxicity could cause stress, but don't you think the bugs are the most likely problem here?

I don't think it could have been the veg tea I used because I used minimum amounts of everything. In a 5 gallon bucket I took 2.5 gallons of RO water and added the following; 2tsp veg guano, 2tsp molasses, 2tsp liquid fish, 1cup EWC, and 2tsp Alfalfa Meal. I gave them the veg tea in week 5 of veg. Before week 5 of veg I gave them an EWC/Alfalfa Meal/Kelp Meal tea every week so they were getting EWC feedings before the veg tea feeding. Although that isn't too much, I could see how even this small amount of nutes would overdo this N in the medium seeing as Blood Meal is pretty powerful in supersoil according to what I've read. What do you think?

I do know that my supersoil is in fact infested. I let it get anaerobic and had to spend a good 2-3 weeks getting it back on track. I spread some DE into the soil while I was fixing it but I likely only got all of the adults and the eggs/larvae were still inside the soil. I managed to catch one of them and get it under my loupe but it was just a fungus gnat, these are the only thing I have been able to confirm. I do know that gnats usually co-exist with aphids so isn't it possible that I have both? Or would the gnats be causing these phantom deficiencies too?

I'm just so sure that I have infested soil because nothing else makes sense really. I grew the FPOG my last run and had no problems with hermies whatsoever. I did get the worst yields known to man though. My 7 gallon pots yielded 1.5 oz max Here is a list of the things I have fixed in my room for the last 2 years I've been growing organic.

- I was overfeeding my plants with guano teas. I would put in 1/2-1 cup of guano per 2.5 gallons of TAP water lol. I used to feed every single watering too. This current grow they haven't been overfed like the previous grows getting my 1 cup guano teas, so I'm pretty sure it isn't my feeding schedule that's stressing them.. unless you have reason to believe I'm wrong with your experience?

- I was using my tap water (350+ppms). I've been using pure RO water for this current grow with a little Cal/Mag in the water. These plants I have now are the absolute best I've had indoors, but they are still showing problems. I'm getting some leaves that show Cal/Mag deficiencies but it isn't nearly as bad as the last grows I've had. The plants also aren't as stunted as they used to be. For perspective, I vegged under a 1000 watt MH for 6 weeks the last grow I did. In that time they only grew to be a foot tall, I topped them a bunch but still. It was even worse in flower, they didn't stretch at all and all 8 of my plants yielded a measly ounce per plant. All were in 7 gallon pots.

I know I've been making a lot of stupid mistakes so please go easy on me I bring all of this up though because it seems like I've fixed everything except for my bug problem, and having infested soil would explain the fact I've been having these problems for the last 2 years. Root growth is lousy and the plant growth is even worse. The buds are always fluffy and airy. I have always followed subcool's recipe exactly, I didn't skimp on any of the ingredients and make it perfectly every time.. but I never get the results that everyone else does.

Sorry for the wall of text, I just wanted to let you know why I'm just so sure about it being bugs. I have no light leaks, my water is better than it has ever been and my feeding schedule is better as well. I don't feed every watering anymore and I feed with much less. The plants have been going for 7-8 weeks now and have received 5, maybe 6 feedings max? My AC keeps the temps at a stable 72-78 degrees and my humidity isn't too bad. I have great ventilation and clean the grow room once a week. With all of the things that I have typed, is there any thing that stands out to you as wrong? Am I still doing something wrong or do I actually have an infestation? Thanks again for all your help Spicy

I look forward to seeing those pics. Quick question. What shape are your leaves? Are they board-flat and directed toward the light?

Nothing you wrote jumps out at me as being "wrong", but there are a few things I would probably do differently. Here are some things to consider:

- The ppm of tap water is primarily a concern for hydroponic growers. A hydroponic grower has to deal with a theoretical "maximum" ppm that the plant can handle without burning. If the tap water already has, say, 350 ppm of hardness (primarily calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate), then the grower has to factor that 350 ppms into his nutrient calcs. Organic growers don't have this concern. I would recommend trying your tap water again and losing the Ca/Mg additive (especially if if contains EDTA like the Botanicare version).

- With super soil, you don't want to feed the plant AT ALL unless it starts showing a deficiency. You want the plant to receive a steady, even supply of nutrients from the soil. If it's already getting absolutely everything it needs, even a dilute compost/alfalfa/kelp tea can throw things out of balance (alfalfa actually provides a pretty good jolt of nitrogen). I would recommend trying a run with only your tap water, start to finish.

I use a soil that's considerably mellower than Subcool's mix, and I rarely add any additional nutrients. Erring on the side of not enough nutrients will have much less of a negative effect in your yields than over fertilizing your plants.

On the bug front... My gut tells me you just have a fungus gnat problem, but I could be wrong.

I've had my share of "phantom deficiencies" while growing organically, but in hindsight I have learned that most of them were actually caused by me adding things to plants that were already healthy.

Sorry if these photos aren't the best, HPS lights are a pain for photos

It's looking like you're totally right SpicySativa, I can only find gnats and no aphids. The N damage is likely burn from the tea and the Ca/Mg "deficiency" is from the gnats like you were saying. In your opinion, how bad do you think the damage is and how bad will it effect my yield? I ordered Azamax a few hours ago so that should take care of the gnats in the soil when I get it. Since I'm so sure I have gnats now I'll be sure to get some dunks asap as well (after Azamax of course).

Don't mind all the little spots on the plants, that's residue from the DE that was top dressed on the plants. It got all over my plants and looked like a bad mite infestation when I went in the next day, spent like 10 minutes looking for mites before I realized it was just DE



Can kind of see burned tips here, node spacing appears lanky, and these photos don't quite catch it but there are some Ca/Mg damaged leaves.



More Ca/Mg leaves, the one right above the cord looks the worst out of it all.



More Ca/Mg, I also tried to get some of the dark green leaves in the right of this photo. The lighting kind of makes it hard to tell, but even with the bad lighting you can still see dark green on some.





Likely nute burn pics.

Jeez. I was expecting some lanky, scraggly-ass plants after your descriptions, but they're not that bad at all!

Those plants definitely look over fed. I don't see anything that looks like Ca or Mg deficiency or insect damage, just early-stage burn.

Regarding the lankiness... You said these were OG Kush crosses, right? From my experience, this lineage grows much like yours are; lanky with golf ball style nuggets. OG varieties are typically low yielders even if you do some serious training.

You're plants are looking alright. I would give them water ONLY for at least the next couple weeks. Use the RO with Ca/Mg if you wish, but only if it doesn't have EDTA in it.

Good luck!

Dude you are seriously the best. Thank you so much for all of your advice, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it and I'm sure my ladies will be eternally grateful as well! I'll probably stick to RO water because I live in California and have loads of chlorine and chloramine in my tap water so I would hate to kill my microbes.

I can't believe I didn't think of the obvious with the OGs either, can't wait to get some new genes going! Thanks again man, I'd give all the rep I could but I don't see a rep button anymore

Haha. Thanks, man. Good luck.

Post some more pics in this thread in a week or two!