Replacement for Earth Worm Castings

Banana444 said:

Just remember with mycorrhizal products that root contact is essential. So germination and transplanting are the best times to use them.

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tyson53 said:

That is the best way to use Myco's....root inuculation....I dust the roots before potting them...during the later veg stage I mix a water and myco powder up and inject them in the root zone.... with dirt pots you can miss root zone..its packed in there...I just cut 1 plant and fter emptied the 25 gallon dirt pot ..was solid roots top to bottom...millions of them..so injecting will get in root zone easy....

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tyson53 said:

I inject the soil jut before transition...I use alot of tea during flowering......

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tyson53 said:

I also dust the roots with myco before potting....

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tyson53 said:

At first i was using a meat injector..took alot of time to do `16 plants outside...then I got a 2 gallon sprayer and took the spray nozzle off so all thats lest is the shaft...plus the shaft is longer so I can bottom it out and draw it up as I dispence it into the soil....lots of coverage...I also use teas and kelp solution that way..found it very effective....

by transition ..when they first show sex....

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RetiredMatthebrute said:

I still have my bin but I grow in hydro mostly now so I don't use it. prob let them go in the spring into my veggie garden and set the bin aside for another time when I have more room.

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RetiredMatthebrute said:

I honestly wish I could afford to grow in soil still but it gets really expensive. after you dial in nutes and stuff for the hydro and get equip there literally is no overhead except new nutes when you run out.

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Pattahabi said:

LmFao!!!! Wait... this is a joke right?

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RetiredMatthebrute said:

??? what overhead do you have with your hydro grow? I have water and nutes, water is free and have enough nutes to last 10 more grows or more...with the amount I grow I could make a bag of FFOF($20) mixed with a bag of pro mix($20) and amended with Epsoma garden($12) tone and EWC (free) last about 3 grows...plus I still have to have nutes....I dunno seems pretty simple to me. not really sure where you got confused but please enlighten me on how hydro is more expensive than soil im all ears.

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Bugeye said:

I've grown hydro and organic dirt and I have spent WAY more money on my soil and amendments than on the water and nutes in hydro.

Just used the Extreme Mykos for first time this year and can see the myco fungi when I gently push a little dirt to the side. Fun to look at with a microscope. Much better than the Great White I used previously. Just my 2 cents.

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Making Soil From Scratch

First off, let's take a look at why we SHOULD make our own soil. I mean after all, why bother? Can't you just go to the store and buy some? Or better yet, order it online and never get off the couch?

The answer is...yes...you can go to the store and buy some or order it online.

What the hell is the point of this thread then? Glad you asked.

1. Cost- making your own soil will be the most cost effective way of obtaining ROLS.

2. Quality- You will be able to include only the finest ingredients possible. The compost/EWC portion of any ROLS, is absolutely critical to success, and even marginal store bought compost can be turned into high quality vermicompost w/ a handful of worms and a little love.

3. Buy Local- At least some portion of your soil mix can be made locally. All of it can be found locally. If that makes any sense. This will keep dollars flowing in your local economy and reduce the carbon footprint of your soil, due to transportation costs that can be reduced or eliminated.

Let's see what I'm talking about when it comes to cost. Just for fun let's use Roots Organic Potting Soil as an example. I can purchase Roots for 12 dollars a bag...roughly 10 gallons of soil...in many areas of the country it goes for 20 bucks a bag.

So Roots Organic potting soil w/out any additional amendments will cost anywhere from $1.20-2.00 a gallon.

Let's build CC's mix w/out amendments for a price comparison. A 3.0 cu. ft. bale of peat moss costs me $12.00 and equals roughly 38 gallons, for the sake of easy math we'll call it 40 gallons. So we still need 20 gallons of lava rock and compost/ewc respectively. For me, I can buy a 1 cu. ft. bag of lava rock for $3.19 (I can knock this price down dramatically buying it by the yard) making my own vermicompost is free. I now have 80 gallons of Coot's mix w/out amendments for $22.00. Let's say for argument's sake I have to buy EWC for $40.00 a cu. ft., which is a very high price, we just made 80 gallons for $142.00.

So by mixing my own soil and EWC I can make Coot's mix for .27 cents a gallon w/out amendments. Even by having to purchase EWC for $40.00 a cu. ft. it still comes in at under $2.00 a gallon, this is simply an example, there is absolutely no reason to pay this much or anything at all, for EWC.

Okay Rancho, I'm picking up what you're laying down, but what about all the dry amendments?

Here are the prices I pay for 50lb sacks.

GRD- $18.95
oyster shell flour (Pacific Pear)- $18.50
crab shell- $38.95
kelp meal- $71.50
neem meal- $44.50

This equals roughly $183.00. It may cost more depending on where you live or if you need to have any items shipped to you. When I was running 3600w, these amendments would last me well over a year, and this was before I began recycling my soil. I imagine now that I'm only running a 600w grow and I recycle my soil, these amendments may last 5 years or more...goodbye grow store. I would suggest calling Concentrates Northwest and finding out if there is a store in your area that carries their products.

Most of these amendments are available in smaller quantities from various sources, however the cost will be much higher per lb. Too much math for me to bother figuring out the exact cost of making a fully amended Coot's mix, and yes, I haven't listed the Basalt price in Coot's mix because I source it locally for free.

Anyhow, at .27 cents a gallon for a mix w/out amendments is our low end starting point, it's easy to make a very cost effective mix, even if you can't source 50lb sacks.

But Rancho...I have to pay $40.00 a cu. ft. for EWC!!!

Initially you may have to do this depending upon where you live. This sucks, I admit. Really though, it should be a one time deal. It is easy to buy marginal compost, screen out any large chunks, (usually woody material) add small amount of kitchen scrap, rock dusts, etc. and turn it into some damn fine vermicompost w/ a handful of worms.

At the end of the day, it's really up to you. However, I can't help but be reminded of Coot's old sig.

"Inconvenience is the only thing Americans really fear."

Peace
RanchoDeluxe

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Pattahabi said:

No offense, but that's because you didnt' know where and how to source your ingredients or how to build a proper soil. Like anything, it costs when you're just learning the ropes.

I do have to second the mykos statement. GW is overpriced junk.

Here's a post from Rancho, I'm sure he won't mind if I post this here.



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Bugeye said:

My costs were in line with those in the post. If I didn't know where or how to source my ingredients, then how did I do it?

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Pattahabi said:

First off, you're not comparing apples to apples, but until more documented research comes out on this I'll hold my tongue for a while. not sure how your not comparing apples to apple, growing a plant vs growing a plant seems pretty apple to apple to me.

What kind of hydro are we talking? DWC What do your hydro roots grow in? gal bucket with -->Hydroton? hat i re use h does your equipment cost? Did it cost, it is paid for now. Water is never free, Well water is free someone is paying for it - precious commodity at that. How much do you pay per month for nutes? again bought and paid for. 1 gal of dyna bloom cost me around 50 and my quarts of dyna grow are around 10 Pesticides? don't use them but I do have neem oil again already bought and paid for and i dont suspect to run out any time soon, Sterilizers? Dutch master zone, paid for 10 bucks add like 3 mill to my 5 gal rez, will last years. Ph Up/down? none but I do need a silica supliment for PH up Ph Meters? PPM meters? I paid around 100 bucks for my PH and PPM meter plus the calibration solutions, will not have to buy again. Are you drain to waste or recycle? I feed my veg gardens the waste if there is any. usually just top off. Need special pots?nope Pumps? nope Rooting hormones? clonex just like a soil grower would have for cloning.

I have a worm bin, buy peat at home depot ($12 a bale), my 'nutes' are a $10 box of kelp $10 box of alfalfa, neem, crab, etc. A little aloe powder, some cheap raw seeds, a little silica. For the price of your equipment, I can grow organics for years and years. Especially if you have a little room to grow a few aloe plants and dynamic accumulators.

This aint rocket science... unless you ask the hydrostore clerk. I don't visit hydro stores.

Peace!
P-

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Pattahabi said:

Mind posting up your numbers then?

Cause when I take a pencil to it, there's no comparison. Hydro is definitely more expensive, to both you and the environment.

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RetiredMatthebrute said:

Again I was talking about OVERHEAD.....this is the cost of materials AFTER you make you initial investments and get up and running. Soil or hydro everyone has to invest in the basics to get going..my nutes will last me forever, my water IS free from the ground. and you need water with soil too.

like I said before all my equipment is paid for, I need to buy nutrients from time to time and that's really it. I may decide I need something else to go into my grow room just as any grower no matter the medium would as they learn and come across different situations. right now im having a ph issue with my flowering plant, PH is dropping due to the plant sucking up the Potassium in the solution. my remedy is to buy Dyna-Gro Pro-tekt Tek-032 0-0-3 Silicon Supplement. this will raise my PPM and add potassium . cost is 10 bucks for a 8 oz bottle and should last a long time because it is super concentrated.

really im not going to sit here and argue with you on the costs of hydro vs soil. Hydro is cheaper for me and right now I cannot afford to buy soil, so I grow in hydro. And im starting to like hydro more and more over soil as I go. Less maintenance, for me at least im sure other hydro growers with larger setup put in more work, as do soil growers with large setups compared to soil growers of small setups.
You can sit here all day long and debate costs but in the end it all boils down to what is personally better for the person growing.

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Bugeye said:

I haven't grown hydro in 12 years so I'm just going from memory, which may be my problem. But the price of my rain water hasn't really changed and my general hydroponics 3 part nutes were about all I added. I guess if you add the cost of hydroton and bubblers it gets closer. I don't think I can do an apples to apples calculation because I'm comparing a 6 pot hydro grow to 4+ cubic yards of orgainic soil in a greenhouse. On a per gallon of soil the orgainic does appear cheap but when you factor in that you get your best prices buying in larger volumes you will have so much left over material if you are only doing a 30 gallon organic dirt grow, which I think would be the most comparable to my 6 pot hydro grows. Since those left over materials are still cash out of my pocket, I would add them into the equation as sunk costs and that's probably where we come to different conclusions. Figuring how many grows I could get from all those left over materials may swing things back in your direction, I just don't think of 5 and 10 year paybacks when growing.

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Pattahabi said:

Ok, so after you pay for all your expensive equipment, not counting the extra pumps, cleaning, pesticides, etc. You still have to buy nutes. I can use water only for the whole grow. So, tell me again how your hydro is cheaper? Eh... maybe I'll use a couple handfuls of kelp and alfalfa lol.


4 cu yards of soil that can be reused over and over for years. Or you can pay for GH nutes every feeding and dump a bunch of nasty chems on your plants and add to the destruction of mother nature. I haven't even gotten into the fact these chems are a big factor in the cancer and disease in this country. Here's another one for you; soon you will see studies showing that organics creates terpenes you will never get from hydro. Smell a hydro grown rose, and smell one grown organically in your back yard.

If you want to grow hydro, to each their own. But don't even start to tell me hydro is cheaper then organics. Not going to happen.

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