Recycled Organic Living Soil (ROLS) and No Till Thread

[st0wandgrow]

"accumulators info at beginning thread."

I don't consider a thread on RIU a credible source. You asked him to cite university studies and/or other credible sources, and I'm asking you to do the same.


"Small bubbles slicing through microbes is in Elaine ingrams book and on microbe mans site"

Here's a quote from Tim Wilsons website that you cited above:

"Review of Some Common Myths; [In no particular order]1/ Small bubbles destroy fungal hyphae or other microbes.

This is utter nonsense. The bubbles/air would need to be super compressed to harm any microorganisms."

http://www.microbeorganics.com/


"Darkness, I posted that link to oxford journals in gands thread and everyone else agreed. You argued about thc% not amount of oils and trichomes.. If you are still disputing that then you never tried. Next you will say uvb doesn't improve trichomes. When it does. We already settled that one. I guess you never got over it."

You said that 48 hours of darkness "doubles or triples" trichome coverage. I never disputed that it *might* have a net positive effect, but I called bullshit on your claim of "double or triple", and you never backed that up. To me that's a gross exaggeration, and until you can find a credible source to substantiate this then it will remain bullshit.
You skipped the mycorrhizae growing in a compost bin. You still insist that this is true, even when presented with credible evidence to the contrary, so I would like for you to post up some good sources of info to back that up .....

 

[Rrog]

I used to grow in soil buckets with compressed air from below percolating up through the soil medium. Fungal growth was un-naturally over the top. I liked it at first, til I discovered that the Canna likes bacterially dominated, not fungally dominated soil.

The bubbles without question don't harm the fungus. Just the opposite, just as Tim says.

 

[hyroot]

Air - More is better. The microbes living in your compost tea are aerobic, they will “breathe” the dissolved oxygen out of your tea at an astonishing rate.Don’t cut corners here. It is hard to overdo the aeration. You want the air bubbles to agitate your substrate and knock off organisms from the organic matter. It is possible however to have bubbles that are too big or too small. Extremely large bubbles will disrupt fungal hyphae and small bubbles may cut them like a knife.Sandstone air diffusers or airstones aren’t ideal because they can house bacteria and throw off your future brews.


http://www.beneficialbiologics.com/index.php/products/compost-tea


http://washington.osu.edu/cuyahoga/topics/agriculture-and-natural-resources/cuyahoga-composts/Compost Tea Brewing Manual.pdf

tim wilson must of changed. he admits to being uneducated and self taught



trichomes

http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/content/93/1/3.long

i never said mychorrizzae. i said fungi. i said you could make mychorrizzae growing any sort of short root plants or grass which is true.


theres links at the beginning of the thread for accumulators. this was covered to death over a year ago. so if you want it, look for it yourself.

im not the one arguing over it. prosecution has to present its case not the other way around

 

[st0wandgrow]

Air - More is better. The microbes living in your compost tea are aerobic, they will “breathe” the dissolved oxygen out of your tea at an astonishing rate.Don’t cut corners here. It is hard to overdo the aeration. You want the air bubbles to agitate your substrate and knock off organisms from the organic matter. It is possible however to have bubbles that are too big or too small. Extremely large bubbles will disrupt fungal hyphae and small bubbles may cut them like a knife.Sandstone air diffusers or airstones aren’t ideal because they can house bacteria and throw off your future brews.


http://www.beneficialbiologics.com/index.php/products/compost-tea


http://washington.osu.edu/cuyahoga/topics/agriculture-and-natural-resources/cuyahoga-composts/Compost Tea Brewing Manual.pdf

tim wilson must of changed. he admits to being uneducated and self taught



trichomes

http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/content/93/1/3.long

i never said mychorrizzae. i said fungi. i said you could make mychorrizzae growing any sort of short root plants or grass which is true.


theres links at the beginning of the thread for accumulators. this was covered to death over a year ago. so if you want it, look for it yourself.

im not the one arguing over it. prosecution has to present its case not the other way around

The thread you responded to was titled "Inexpensive Mycos".

Your response: "compost is cheaper and has all that in it ."

Quit moving the goal posts when you're wrong.

As for the "2 to 3 times" increase in production of trichomes with a 48 hour dark period, I read your link, and there was NO mention of trichome increase with a 48 hour light deprivation, let alone 2 to 3 times. You might want to read a link before you post it as proof.

There seems to be conflicting info on the small bubbles theory. I find it hard to believe that any bubbler/diffuser that any of us would be using would shred microbes, but I don't know enough about the topic to be certain. I do believe Tim knows enough, and has tested the results to be certain though. He even said in the quote that I posted "The bubbles/air would need to be super compressed to harm any microorganisms."

And no, basalt is not a nutrient accumulator. Find a credible source to back that up. Otherwise it's just conjecture.

 

[thegreenbull]

read this thread from the beginning. cann and headtreep provide links and sources... You will even see where me and cann argued about kelp being a phos accumulator. I was saying the opposite of what I am now.

you should stop stalkinge trying to argue every post with wiki. Only use links and sources from creditable scientist and horticulturists, universities and botany labs. Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, university of Missouri, Washington state, Texas a&M all have botany and horticulture departments. Oxford and university of Missouri are among the top. Elaine Ingram is a creditable microbiologist to read on. Teaming with microbes and teaming with nutrients are good books. Revs tlo is another. Compost teas by Elaine Ingram is another good book. Grow some plants and gain some real world experience. Then come back in 10-15 years after you have done so. You can find horticulture 101, 110, 210 from university of Missouri online for free. I suggest reading those first.

0573247, member: 319672"]read this thread from the beginning. cann and headtreep provide links and sources... You will even see where me and cann argued about kelp being a phos accumulator. I was saying the opposite of what I am now.

you should stop stalkinge trying to argue every post with wiki. Only use links and sources from creditable scientist and horticulturists, universities and botany labs. Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, university of Missouri, Washington state, Texas a&M all have botany and horticulture departments. Oxford and university of Missouri are among the top. Elaine Ingram is a creditable microbiologist to read on. Teaming with microbes and teaming with nutrients are good books. Revs tlo is another. Compost teas by Elaine Ingram is another good book. Grow some plants and gain some real world experience. Then come back in 10-15 years after you have done so. You can find horticulture 101, 110, 210 from university of Missouri online for free. I suggest reading those first.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the info bro

read this thread from the beginning. cann and headtreep provide links and sources... You will even see where me and cann argued about kelp being a phos accumulator. I was saying the opposite of what I am now.

you should stop stalkinge trying to argue every post with wiki. Only use links and sources from creditable scientist and horticulturists, universities and botany labs. Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, university of Missouri, Washington state, Texas a&M all have botany and horticulture departments. Oxford and university of Missouri are among the top. Elaine Ingram is a creditable microbiologist to read on. Teaming with microbes and teaming with nutrients are good books. Revs tlo is another. Compost teas by Elaine Ingram is another good book. Grow some plants and gain some real world experience. Then come back in 10-15 years after you have done so. You can find horticulture 101, 110, 210 from university of Missouri online for free. I suggest reading those first.

 

[~Dankster~420]

I dont know if this thread is ALIVE still.. However I was planning on starting my gardening with Dank 101.. just a little side project of mine.. I just started grafing trees. Grafter my 1st Apple tree to a Pech tree.. anyone want to check it out?? I also just started my compost pile back & here's a few pics.

After several years and countless dollars wasted on chemical nutes and never recycling my soil I have learned the true way of gardening thanks to a great thread on ICMag.

ALL CREDIT TO: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=241964 Living organic soil from start through recycling. Special thanks to MM, CC, LD, Gas, and the other organic terrorists.

Cann, Rrog, and anyone else who would like to add or correct any info here please let me know. Let's keep this positive and spread the word to the masses!!!

Borrowed from eyecmag https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=257899&page=4:

Hey folks (specifically newbs to ROLS),

I have read this entire thread as closely as my amateur skills have allowed me, and I have created a very terse compilation of notes, based exclusively from this thread. Meaning anything said can be sourced somewhere in this thread. There is such an extensive array of valuable information here I feel it warrants a summary of key terms/ideas, mainly for any newbs who have joined the boat late and who would like to source information quickly. If one person finds value in them other than myself, then it's worth posting

*Disclaimer*

These are my notes. As such, please take them with a grain of salt. Rather than rely on the specific claims I make in my notes or the figures I use, I recommend using them as an index of terms that can and should be searched for to help you locate specific topics quickly and efficiently. Also, these notes by no means cover all of the topics discussed. Unfortunately, they only touch on topics that are of specific interest to me. For example, you will find nothing regarding breeding, of which there is plenty discussed in this thread. I haven't tested many of these suggestions, and I haven't tested most on a long term basis. Remember, these notes are coming from a newb!

Without further ado...

ROLS Notes

-Kelp has so many trace elements that it improve plants immune system against disease, insects, weather. Foliar is the most effective. Foliar roots during transplant. Growth max or growth plus are good brands. Foliar in the morning. Apply 1/2-3/4 cup of kelp meal to 1 c.f. of potting soil everyrecycle. Do not use liquid kelp as these products have far less benefits than raw kelp meal.

-Alfalfa has many trace minerals as well as n-p-k-Ca-mg, sugars, starches, protein, fiber and 16 amino acids. Use on top of soil sprinkling lightly or 1 cup per 1 c.f. soil mix or 1 tbs per gallon ACT. Excellent foliar feed. Use alfalfa seed tea early in flower to reduce internodal spacing.

-Aloe juice - simply crush the leaves and collect the juice. Aloe foliar @ 2 tbls per gallon water once every 3 days. Unprocessed Aloe must use within 20 minutes due to decomposition. Supplement with worm castings and casting teas. Great for rooting clones. Great for PM resistance along with neem, kelp and alfalfa. Excellent in rooting clones just add 2 oz per gallon water. 2 tbls per gallon foliar spray. Apply 1-3 times a week. Soil drench and foliar are identical.

Vermicompost
-use coffee beans for N. ph is about 6.9 for used grounds.
-leaves and straw for bedding.
-add grit like sand or limestone or eggshells for worm digestion @ 1% total mass
-red wriggler can live 0-30 degrees celsius. Optimal temps 15-25
-up to 20% worm biomass
-use citrus peels and onions with caution

-Fish bone meal - replace every other recycle for 5 cycles, then add every 3-4 cycles. Use 1-3 cups per 6 gallons depending on other high N sources such as alfalfa. High in phosphorous.

-Sphagnum peat is not inert it is alive! Look specifically for sphagnum.Holds 20x water to weight. Aerates heavy clay soils. Speeds up composting. Decomposes slowly over several years as opposed to compost which completely decomposes after a year.

-Stinging nettles and comfrey are a powerful pesticide and fungicide. Dice and purée 2 cups of comfrey or stinging nettles and let sit in water for no more than 3 days. Foliar as well as soil drench.

-Rice hulls are a superior substitute for perlite. Perlite floats to the top of the pot. Also try lava rock.

-Leaf mold takes 6 months to a year to decompose. Speed the process up by throwing in high N stuff like compost, alfalfa meal. Use 2 quarts per cubic foot of soil. Great for moisture retention and aeration.

-Spider mites - control with neem foliar spray and rosemary oil spray. 10% rosemary oil to 90% water. -cardamom - grind 1/4 cup then place in hot water. Let cool. Go spray spider mites. Lavender tea. mite magnet - live Basel plants.

-Heat stress - use barley seed extract tea, same method as other enzyme seed teas.

-freshly rooted clones - couple days before transplanting add 1 tbs kelp meal , 2 tbs alfalfa meal, 1 gallon water bubble for 36-48 hrs for a boost in growth.

-Mineralization - azomite , gypsum (home depot) limestone and glacial rock @ 32 tbs per c.f. (total)Go to a landscape supply and load a bucket of all the rock u want! Try to go for volcanic rock dusts, as these contain silica.

-Thrips - ladybird larvae eat thrip larvae. Electric bug zapper. Bacteria called spinosad. Monterey garden insect w/ spinosad. Entrust 80w. Nematodes. Mums. Gerbera. Only foliar spray spinosad. Foliar with aloe and protekt. 1/4 aloe 2 tsp protekt per gallon solution. Know thrip life cycle.

-Cilantro pesticide- buy a bunch of organic cilantro. Place in food processor. Throw in 1 gallon of clearwater. Sit for 36 to 48 hours, no more. Strain. Add 1 cup of strained cilantro tea to 15 cups of water. Add quarter cup of Aloe Vera juice. 1 teaspoon pro-tekt. 30 minutes before lights out spray and soak everything. Leave ventilation on. Apply every four days for four applications. Use in conjunction with spinosad.

-Silica - use every watering and foliar spray up to harvest. Great pest and disease control. Protekt and agsil 16h are good brands. Agsil is greater value for your money. 148 grams agsil to 1 litre water = protekt. Silica is an emulsifier (i.e. use with neem oil)! 2 tsp protekt to 1 g water.

-Organic cloning gel - 1 g water, 2 tbs aloe Vera, 1.5 tbs Ful-power, 1.5 ts Protekt. Shake. Soak jiffy pucks for several hours. Use rooting product as well.

-Water retention - saponins. Horse chestnuts have a lot of saponins.

-Foliar - once a week, with something. Stop half way through flower. Always use Ful-Power to half harvest. Use Protekt till harvest.

-Neem - 1/4 cup per 1 cf every re ammend. Foliar-4 tsp per gallon. Emulsify with protekt. Ensure that water is at least 75 degrees fahrenheit when mixing final solution, otherwise it will clump - useless.

-Biochar. Hardwood charcoal. Smash to bits. Prevents yellowing via slow release of nutrients. Optional: place in compost pile. Allow up to 10% total soil volume. Cowboy charcoal from whole foods. Take bag of char, add 1/2 gallon EWC, 2-4 cups fish or guano or alfalfa or comfrey, soak a week in ACT, strain and add to soil.

-Enzyme tea -2 tablespoons of seeds (1 oz.) The choice of seeds is non specific. Almost anything works. Soak for 12-18 hours in mason jar. Drain that water and throw away it’s full of growth inhibitors. After a day or so once sprouted, add 1/2 gallon of water to the sprouts for a 36-48 hour soak. Strain and use 1 cup of this to 1 gallon of water as soil drench. Observe 'praying' leaves. Chop seeds for worm food. Do not store these teas.

-Coconut - scraping coconut paste from a young coconut. Enzymes, auxins, elements, etc. 1 coconut can do 20 plants. 1 oz coconut water to 15 oz water foliar spray clones. Benefits are too numerous to list.

Let me kick this off with a little no till. I pulled a plant today cause it wasn't up to my standards. I have since replaced it with a fresh clone using the same pot. We will add to this as time goes on.


Turn on, tune in, drop out....

Vic's High

 

[DonPetro]

I dont know if this thread is ALIVE still.. However I was planning on starting my gardening with Dank 101.. just a little side project of mine.. I just started grafing trees. Grafter my 1st Apple tree to a Pech tree.. anyone want to check it out?? I also just started my compost pile back & here's a few pics. View attachment 3173823 View attachment 3173825 View attachment 3173826 View attachment 3173827 View attachment 3173828 View attachment 3173830 View attachment 3173831 View attachment 3173832 View attachment 3173833 View attachment 3173834

You are the man Mr. Dankster.

 

[thegreenbull]

I dont know if this thread is ALIVE still.. However I was planning on starting my gardening with Dank 101.. just a little side project of mine.. I just started grafing trees. Grafter my 1st Apple tree to a Pech tree.. anyone want to check it out?? I also just started my compost pile back & here's a few pics. View attachment 3173823 View attachment 3173825 View attachment 3173826 View attachment 3173827 View attachment 3173828 View attachment 3173830 View attachment 3173831 View attachment 3173832 View attachment 3173833 View attachment 3173834

 

[starcraftguy1988]

I respect the accumulated knowledge in this room. I was hoping some of you more veteran growers could correct or add too anything you see here. This is my third organic soil, the first was a mix of organic bottles and amendments(ended badly), and the second one was great but only used happy frogs bloom amendment mix. this time i have purchased several and come up with this.
SOILBASE:
5cuft: sunshine organic, inert. brown and white bags.
35 lbs: vermicrop

AMENDMENTS:
1/2 cup: Azomite
1.2 cups: Alfalfa meal
2 cups: Kelp Meal
1 cup: Soft rock phosphate
1/2 cup dolomitic lime

Im using little bti bits(mosquito bits) for the soil as far as soil pests, and sticky traps/neem oil for anything else.
Like i said its pretty barebones, so please if the more veteran Organic soil gardeners, pipe in if you see anything obvious. Also this mix is already cooking as of 3 hours ago, But it hasnt been too long that i couldnt break it down and add an amendment or two.

 

[st0wandgrow]

I respect the accumulated knowledge in this room. I was hoping some of you more veteran growers could correct or add too anything you see here. This is my third organic soil, the first was a mix of organic bottles and amendments(ended badly), and the second one was great but only used happy frogs bloom amendment mix. this time i have purchased several and come up with this.
SOILBASE:
5cuft: sunshine organic, inert. brown and white bags.
35 lbs: vermicrop

AMENDMENTS:
1/2 cup: Azomite
1.2 cups: Alfalfa meal
2 cups: Kelp Meal
1 cup: Soft rock phosphate
1/2 cup dolomitic lime

Im using little bti bits(mosquito bits) for the soil as far as soil pests, and sticky traps/neem oil for anything else.
Like i said its pretty barebones, so please if the more veteran Organic soil gardeners, pipe in if you see anything obvious. Also this mix is already cooking as of 3 hours ago, But it hasnt been too long that i couldnt break it down and add an amendment or two.

What you added to the base.... are those measurements per cubic foot or is that the total amount you added to the base?

 

[starcraftguy1988]

What you added to the base.... are those measurements per cubic foot or is that the total amount you added to the base?

The amendments listed and the measurements are what i added to the entire batch. Is this not enough, too much! AHHHHH

 

[st0wandgrow]

The amendments listed and the measurements are what i added to the entire batch. Is this not enough, too much! AHHHHH

Well, to give you an idea the last batch of soil I made was 8cf of base. To that I added 4 cups each of the following: kelp meal, alfalfa meal, crab shell meal, neem cake, and oyster shell flour. Then 24 cups of rock dust.

You already have the kelp and alflafa meals, so I would start by adding more of each. You could also pick up an all purpose dry organic fert like Espoma and add some of that as well.

If you wanted to, you could leave things be and plant your seedlings in to that mix, and then top dress and/or brew some teas to get the girls finished up. I would not count on your current mix to have enough juice to get you to the finish line though.

 

[starcraftguy1988]

I think i like the idea of leaving it be as a nice starter/veg mix and then coming back and making an ACT or two for the final days. Thanks again man, your effort is much appreciated.

 

[DonPetro]

Can i ask why most of you organic gurus don't use greensand in your soil mixes? I thought you guys would be all over that shit.

 

[hyroot]

Can i ask why most of you organic gurus don't use greensand in your soil mixes? I thought you guys would be all over that shit.

because it takes about 2 years to break down. So it's useless.

 

[DonPetro]

because it takes about 2 years to break down. So it's useless.

Don't you recycle your soil mix though?

 

[st0wandgrow]

Can i ask why most of you organic gurus don't use greensand in your soil mixes? I thought you guys would be all over that shit.

Personally I don't because I get a great deal on kelp meal at a feed store, and I get rock dusts from a quarry for free. AFAIK greensand primarily brings minerals and potassium to the table, and I have that already covered with the kelp meal and rock dusts.

 

[rocknratm]

funny I bought green sand for my SS mix. I was looking for a high potash something to add, the ratio seemed off.

 

[CannaBare]

Hey guys,

I am really low on EWC and have a ton of rabbit poo. I lucked out and found a ton of poo for cheap, really clean, no hay in two bags! I couldn't believe it. Could I substitute the poo for the EWC? Why does it have to be EWC? I have always wondered that.

Thanks!

 

[Below66]

Worm castings is the caviar of castings, they break down material in ways that are still being studied. Casting from rabbits are unique in that rabbits shit completely dry pellets which I believe are more readily-available to compost and plants than wet/hot manures from other animals(cow/horse/chicken). I'm still not sure if people top-dress with rabbit poo though, the reason you seldom see anyone use anything but castings from worms for top-dressing is because it's a completely different process.

You are truly in organic business when you are taking that rabbit poo and throwing it in your compost pile to be worked for a while, to then be thrown in the worm bin and worked a bit more.