Recycled Organic Living Soil (ROLS) and No Till Thread

[headtreep]

I usually remove as much as I can before I switch to flower but as you know the first 2 weeks of flower they still grow quite a bit so I will trim the larf and popcorns away. It's a must the way I do it for us cause it saves on time and increases yield.

I like big colas the size of 2 liters and I can get that under a 600 watt light.

 

[headtreep]

Working great thus far. I have a few that I'm testing and then I'll run it all that way.

What kind of lights does everyone use? What you in tents or room? Do you use the old 12/12 (I do)? I run a combo of 400, 600, and 1000s I get curious cause I seem to notice that less is more sometimes even with light. Maybe I'm wrong but I've bleach my plants in the past. Also anyone get better results with those crazy light schedules?

Back to the question anyone??

 

[Cann]

flower - 12/12 photoperiod, 600watt lights (6 in my 8x8 tent, 1 in my 4x4 tent),

veg - t5 fluorescents 4'x8bulb fixture x2 for a tent which is 4x8...18/6 photoperiod

 

[headtreep]

Cool Cann, so traditional schedule and pretty much the way I do it but I prefer MH in veg. T5 I have them for seeds. I seemed to get better growth with HID. I also use HPS to veg in one of my rooms because switching bulbs suck I get the same results it seems. Anyone run 24 hour veg or one of those funky flower schedules?

 

[Kalyx]

My PPL bloom box has 3 600w lights in a straight row of air cooled daystars (6"max fan on intake and out end of a/c circuit). I reverse these fans to heat the home in winter, blast straight outside in hot months. I run digital ballasts with sunpulse bulbs and have one magnetic to run hortilux hps. Supposedly the 20,000+ Hz that a pulse start digital/e-ballast hits the arctube with squeezes the (heavy metal, and very not organic, ie toxic) gas cocktails slowly out of the vents in the sockets of the bulbs. Where they end up is in our/our ladies' environment and in the plants themselves, yay modern industrial systems (yay a true independent a/c light circuit too).
Currently I run a 4K Sunlpulse on the "entrance" end of the box, the magentic horti hps in the middle, and a 3K Sunpulse at the "exit" end of the box which is occasionally swapped for the 10K finishing Sunpulse. Ya Ya its a lot of halide, but I am in no rush and am growing mainly for resin quality and I love to make organic RO IWE. The box is 7'x4' with a lovely 9' ceiling . I take out one 600w and use only 2 lamps on a gualala light rail in hot months, also have a little r2d2 style AC unit that I can install in hot time too. I tend to prefer about 50 watts per square foot of 600s. With 3 its over 60wpsf. Too much light is possible for sure, any desert outdoor grower has seen their fair share of that! Genetics must be able to tolerate said intensity, its easy to raise em up a bit tho too. On the other end I have seen decent smoke come out of 25-30wpsf intensity gardens with crusty old bulbs, again genetics play a role on this end.
Veg is in another room with 2 tents a 2'x4' with a 3' light rail with a 400w 6.4K sun pulse. Then a 4.5'x4.5' with a 600w sun pulse 6.4K also on a 3' rail. If its hot the veg may down size to a 250w and a 400w as its only on my swamp cooler in there. 12/12 bloom 20/4 veg.

At work we have flipboxes and banks of 1000 watt digitals running hortilux 1000w hps in 3 bloom rooms. In veg there are 4 thousand watt hortilux standard halides and T5 units for younger plants, getting a 6oow stage set up soon too. We do TLO here: 4x4, 1 gallon, 5 gallon plastic nursery pots then a 20 gallon smartpot with TLO manure, layers, 2.1, super living EWC top layer, usually 6 spikes varying types by variety, and cocoNot used as mulch. So far so good, the plants are WAY healthier compared to those grown with my help in full synth hydro at the first producer I worked for, before getting a producing gig that was much closer to my own personal organic gardening ideals. Tea is more than a human beverage at the new gig!

 

[headtreep]

Nice setup! I think you will find after seeing us in this thread that you don't need to do the layers and spikes but if it's working for you than by all means I wouldn't want to mess up your program. It seems like myself you prefer the HID lights over t5

 

[Kalyx]

Cann

• Kalyx - silica is important for my plants for all of the reasons that Rrog and many others have highlighted over and over again. do a test - water half your garden with potassium silicate every time (foliars too), and the other half without. tell me if you don't notice a difference in leaf size/texture, stem thickness/strength, etc. this is not to say that the same results couldn't be achieved with horsetail - i just don't have the time, energy, or really care enough to harvest all that horsetail and process it into a silica amendment. call me a non-purist, sure. i also use powdered aloe even though I live in the desert and can go out and harvest aloe...i just can't be filleting/blending aloe leaves every time I go to water...especially when I need enough water for 80 plants...its just unrealistic. if you want to go through all these efforts to be 100% pure in your ways, go for it. as far as i'm concerned, using "synthetic" silica doesn't affect the living soil in a negative way at all, the effect is only positive. you seem to be viewing it like potassium silicate is tainting your organic crop...why is this? what affect do you think it has on the soil or plants?​
  
  

Potassium Silicate - whyforhuh?


Ok I am posting this as educational and present it for enlightenment purposes only. Gardening is based in personal preference and in my “purist” view...


***ORGANIC IS LIKE PREGNANT YOU EITHER ARE OR YOU AREN'T!***


My main friendly point here is that medicine and foods marketed as organic should be produced with 100% naturally occurring inputs materials, specifically ones created by natural earth/life forces at ambient pressures and temperatures. (Not chemically synthesized substitutes or analogs, no matter how identically they break down once in solution.) I strongly believe that plants and their helper microbes are far more in tune and sensitive to their environment than we can even conceive! Why else would the same cut taste so much flatter in hydro, tho it may yield more dry weight?


So I finally found a highly informative and very well cited document created byNational Organic Standards Board Technical Advisory Panel Review
compiled by University of California Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education Program (UC SAREP) for the USDA National Organic Program


link to the clencher here: http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5057629


I refer to this article as the clencher because it has tons of great supporting info and concludes that:


“Concluding remarks
Clearly, potassium silicate is a synthetic because, although the potassium carbonate and sand are mined, they require very high temperature treatment to form potassium silicate, and therefore a significant contribution of fossil fuel or fossil fuel replacement energy.
As a fertilizer, potassium silicate is highly soluble (generally a trait that puts a material in the prohibited grouping) and ‘jolts’ the soil with a rapid release of nutrients, even though the effects of a rapid availability of potassium and silica is not believed to have nearly as profound an impact as other materials such as sodium nitrate (an allowed non-synthetic material, with restrictions). As a source of potassium or silicate for soil fertility, there are several effective non-synthetic, low soluble alternatives (lack of alternatives can mitigate other prohibited traits). Although synthetic silicates of metallic micronutrients have been allowed, they are not allowed as a source of silica, and probably should remain so: the reason for allowing these synthetic metallic silicates is the lack of acceptable materials, not that they are compatible with organic philosophy. The weight of the above evidence puts potassium silicate as a fertilizer in the prohibited column.
As a fungicide, the same concerns about synthetics are present. However the amounts used are much smaller, there is no ‘jolt’ to the soil and, most importantly, effective alternatives are not available. Unfortunately, there is not convincing evidence that potassium silicate will be even as effective as the alternatives, and its mode of action is not understood. These are important considerations. Sulfur and copper are allowed synthetics because, although they have some non-target toxicity and environmental troubles, they have a well-understood mode of action and breakdown products, have been used by organic farmers for a long time, and are proven effective. Potassium silicate does not have significant non-target toxicities, environmental risks or breakdown products, but does have a poorly understood mode of action, a short history of use, and has not been proven widely effective.
Recommendations to the NOSB:
The substance should be listed as a prohibited synthetic on the National List.
However, I encourage the NOSB to reassess the material, perhaps as a restricted synthetic fungicide if, in the future, the mode of action becomes better understood, and much more significant and widespread effectiveness as a fungicide is proved.”


Also here is how MANY listing organizations view potassium silicate:
“Status
Potassium silicate is not listed in the Final Rule. Synthetic silicates of zinc, copper, iron, manganese, molybdenum, selenium, and cobalt are allowed as micronutrient plant or soil amendments in cases of documented soil deficiency (§205.601(j)(6)(ii)). In processing applications, silicon dioxide (SiO2) is an allowed synthetic.
Certification
Domestic certifiers
California Certified Organic Farmers (CCOF) Certification Handbook – Not listed (CCOF 2000).
Idaho Department of Agriculture (ISDA) Organic Food Products Rules – Not listed (Section 02.06.33, 2000).
Texas Department of Agriculture (TDA) Organic Certification and Standards Materials List – Not listed. For processing, allows
silicon dioxide as a floating agent (2000).
Washington Department of Agriculture (WSDA) Organic Crop Production Standards – Not listed (WAC 16-154-070, 2000). Organic Materials Review Institute (OMRI) Generic Materials List – Not listed (2002).”
We all know the state certifiers are tougher than bushy’s watered down fed rules too!




Ok thats their stance, here is my take. I will also cite some of the above linked Review because I know not all will take the time to read it wholly.

#1 issue is patient health. When it comes to my own and my patients health I strictly stand by the precautionary principle. Just because something isn’t proven to be bad, does not mean it can’t do harm.

Keep in mind that our crop is traditionally consumed by burning and inhaling cannabis flowers and extracts.

In the production section:
“Applications of potassium silicate pose a risk primarily from inhalation or ingestion of silica-rich compounds. Respiratory problems in the agricultural sector due to inhaled dust are a proven concern (Schenker 2000). Decades ago, it was shown that dust arising from storage and handling of wheat grains contained particles that were believed to cause respiratory ailments (Baker 1961). Burning of high-silica crops, such as rice and sugarcane, have been problematic for worker health in the past (Boeniger et al. 198. There is also significant indirect evidence linking ingested plant silica and human cancer (Sangster et al. 1983, Bhatt et al. 1984, Hodson et al. 1994), but there currently is no connection between plant silica and inorganic silica sources. Mitigation of health risks associated with respiration of silica-laden dust can be achieved though proper use of personal protective equipment including a NIOSH-approved dust respirator where dust occurs."

"No carcinogenicity, mutagenicity, or developmental toxicity data are available for potassium silicate.”

OBVIOUSLY avoid inhaling the dust (dry formulas or crusty lids!) But what happens when we burn synth silica grown meds and inhale them? Heres more...

From page 3/4, Production section:
“Silicon impregnates along epidermal cell walls (Parry and Smithson 1964). These layers become effective barriers against water loss and fungal infection (Sangster 1970, Takeoka et al 1984). Silicon is also deposited in xylem vessel cell walls, preventing constriction of xylem under high transpiration stress (Raven 1983), and in endodermal root cells, where it acts as a barrier against infection of the stele by parasites and pathogens (Bennett 1982). Although there appears to be a relationship between silicate treatments, resistance to fungal attack, and expression of plant defense mechanisms (Cherif et al 1992), a concurrent study (Cherif et al 1992a) showed that accumulation and polymerization of silica at fungal infection sites has no role in providing a physical barrier against fungal attack. Further evidence points to the accumulation of silica in the trichomes of fruit as a possible barrier (Samuels et al 1993).

Si is deposited throughout the plant as it grows. Save for the roots, all of the above (epidermal cells, xylem walls, and of course Trichomes) bolded plant parts are smoked as parts of the flowers! I DO NOT use potassium silicate just in case this burned and inhaled deposited Si is harming our lungs!!! I’ll trade higher health for dry weight any day!


#2 issue is environmental health (global and garden environment)
Potassium silicate is NOT a naturally occurring compound. It takes excessive temperatures and pressures ie A LOT of fossil fuel derived energy and carbon dioxide emissions to produce. It is also extremely alkaline and may disrupt nutrient cycling and microbes in our containers.

“How Made:
Potassium silicates are manufactured using a calcination process that combines silica sand (SiO2) and potassium carbonate (K2CO3) at 1100-2300°F for up to 15 minutes (NOP Petition; Rawlyk and McDonald 2001). The two substances fuse into glass, which can be dissolved with high-pressure steam to form a clear, slightly viscous fluid, or cooled and ground into a powder. Carbon dioxide is evolved from this reaction. The solution can be dried to form hydrous powder crystals of potassium silicate.” p.2 of link
It is an acid salt which “highly soluble (generally a trait that puts a material in the prohibited grouping) and ‘jolts’ the soil with a rapid release of nutrients,” which in itself may have negative consequences to our microbes. Additionally the material is highly alkaline and known to “damage aquatic life systems” due to this. Carefully monitor your pH when using this stuff or you are guaranteed killing plant surface/soil microbial life!

Plenty of Substitutes: (to get Si as a nutrient)

“Where Si amendments are needed, a number of agricultural products high in silica may be used to supplement soil reserves. These range from field trash, such as rice hulls and sugarcane bagasse, to shells from aquatic animals. Where agricultural solutions are not available or practical, the use of glauconite is a viable alternative. Glauconite is a composite mineral of hydrated iron-potassium silicates (7% K2O, 54% SiO2). The mineral is mined from naturally occurring sedimentary deposits known as greensand, and has an established history of use as a natural soil conditioner. The substance is commercially available and OMRI-listed.”


#3 issue its just another bottle from the grow shop!
Isn’t that what we are moving past with higher/real living organics? To me saying that a side by side comparison with a synthetic additive to an organic garden is enough, falls short. Ya, I bet your synth Si uptake souped “organic” plants will grow “better” than the non-treated organic plants in the test. Too bad that you threw the baby out with the bathwater for me (based on my personal “purist” definition and “high bar” for true organics) and your garden is now “organic” (organic based is a nice giant category your "organic" garden now falls into) as opposed to actually being 100% living organic. Grow how you want, but IMO you are misleading folks just like the rev if you start to pick and choose which synthetic bottles/products are “legit” in your “organic garden”. (Rev at least uses no synth bottles!)
To each his own tho, greenwashing is a major pet peeve of mine since college. What variable we are comparing also needs mention: most growers fixate on yield of dry weight, to me resin quality and purity are the main objectives. We all yield good, but not every experienced grower’s product tastes good and is free from tainting by the industrial world we create/live in.




Sorry for the long post. I tend to delve into my research and just wanted to share!

 

[Rrog]

Nice flow of thought here. I started as a HPS guy all the way from veg to chop. I supplement with quality UV-b. Now moving to LED. An array of panels that I can individually move and position. Multi-array instead of a single point. The cool operation allows me to avoid a mini-split in the new room plans.

 

[Kalyx]

headtreep

Nice setup! I think you will find after seeing us in this thread that you don't need to do the layers and spikes but if it's working for you than by all means I wouldn't want to mess up your program. It seems like myself you prefer the HID lights over t5 ​

Danks man! If I had my way the farm would just be an organic cannabis farm. The boss man is the one narrowing our vision to a TLO cannabis farm. The rev gets good results for small scale. Damn those complicated transplants in TLO! We'll see if it can translate to larger scale productivity.Water only gardening is a beautiful thing though. I try to give my outside the TLO box 2cents but it usually comes back to stick with the rev's program. Coolio, I still have MY garden! Plus my teas smell dank and his a bit rank! Talk about over-complicating a simple thing!

Lights...
I prefer HID over T5 for both growth rate and intensity but also BULB REPLACEMENT COSTS! A standard 400w MH bulb costs $30 compared to 8x $7-$15 to re bulb an eight bulb T5 which puts out only 4K more lumens (exact same as a HO 400w MH)! Of course buying sunpulse and other nice bulbs can easily override this price difference.

 

[Kalyx]

mmm mini-split... I cant wait for my next build up... Moving next june so I'll have the excuse.

Plasma also is peaking my interest, lots of the photons we want and less filler photons. Supposedly more E efficient too?

More halides/blue has made a difference in how long the genetics go... I think hps is still a bit faster, but MH wins for spectrum and flavor, plus I like to spend time looking at my plants and appreciate the truer color and better senescence at finish.

 

[headtreep]

Nice flow of thought here. I started as a HPS guy all the way from veg to chop. I supplement with quality UV-b. Now moving to LED. An array of panels that I can individually move and position. Multi-array instead of a single point. The cool operation allows me to avoid a mini-split in the new room plans. View attachment 2595356

Hey Rrog that's some cool shit man. What kind ofUV-b man? I heard people using them but I haven't. Is it one of those reptile kind?

Keep us informed on that LED setup cause we battle the heat in the desert

 

[headtreep]

Danks man! If I had my way the farm would just be an organic cannabis farm. The boss man is the one narrowing our vision to a TLO cannabis farm. The rev gets good results for small scale. Damn those complicated transplants in TLO! We'll see if it can translate to larger scale productivity.Water only gardening is a beautiful thing though. I try to give my outside the TLO box 2cents but it usually comes back to stick with the rev's program. Coolio, I still have MY garden! Plus my teas smell dank and his a bit rank! Talk about over-complicating a simple thing!

Lights...
I prefer HID over T5 for both growth rate and intensity but also BULB REPLACEMENT COSTS! A standard 400w MH bulb costs $30 compared to 8x $7-$15 to re bulb an eight bulb T5 which puts out only 4K more lumens (exact same as a HO 400w MH)! Of course buying sunpulse and other nice bulbs can easily override this price difference.

Right on man. I agree on the lights but since I never ran The Rev'$ program I can't judge. I would love to see some pics if you have any.

 

[headtreep]

mmm mini-split... I cant wait for my next build up... Moving next june so I'll have the excuse.

Plasma also is peaking my interest, lots of the photons we want and less filler photons. Supposedly more E efficient too?

More halides/blue has made a difference in how long the genetics go... I think hps is still a bit faster, but MH wins for spectrum and flavor, plus I like to spend time looking at my plants and appreciate the truer color and better senescence at finish.

Ok, I hear this a lot about MH producing more resin. That's something I always wondered but haven't tried it out. I use those damn cool hoods and swapping is a bitch.

 

[Wolverine97]

Nice to see you guys carrying the torch, and making further progress. Keep up the good work.

 

[snowboarder396]

I would not replace hps with mh for flowering. During natural light cycle when the plants actually flower outside more towards the fall the sun light spectrum leans more to that of an hps, in the in the red/Orange spectrum. However its never a bad idea to supplement the light with an mh it can only help providing you can control temps etc. Also been string really good results from leds for veg with tighter internodal growth.. still can't beat natural free sunlight if your able grow outdoors or in greenhouse

 

[Mohican]

Have you read that HID gives of UV depending on orientation - vertical vs. horizontal?

 

[snowboarder396]

Not that I can think of or remember.. ill have try look up the info I have, if not maybe someone else will chime in. Always good to learn about these things, it can only help us achieve our goals more.

 

[Rrog]

Petoskey Stoner Mohican

 

[headtreep]

I started a worm farm a few months back and all was going good until the other day when I was curious to see how many worms I had now. When I lifted the lid there were very few to be found. I believe I over fed them and prob fed them the wrong things. I had way too many cannabis branches and other green like spent barley beans things causing too much heat due to composition. Lesson learned! Feed the right foods less often when starting out. I have new worms coming this week. I have one of those tower worm farms I got for xmas.

I can grow plants but fuck man did I get played by the worms?? lol

Any other advice is welcomed

 

[Rrog]

Uh oh! You can easily start decomposition and heat. I haven't seen it personally but have read plenty of folks have. Easy to do.