RDWC Help! Bugs? Burn? Deficiency? Lots of pics, please help <3

Hello Everyone!

I have been lurking on these forums for a while now, but this is my first post. I'll get right to the details, but first, I want to say thank you to all the amazing people who contribute to these forums. I have learned so much here, and I am grateful for that knowledge.

This is my second grow, both have been Hydro. My first grow was an expensive disaster but I somehow managed to get a decent yield. I thought, I had learned a lot, but here I am botching up a sure thing, so I come to you, humbled, and desperate!

I will start with a description of my current equipment and room setup, then go from there:

I have a 5X9 sealed room and an Undercurrent inspired system that I built myself. Pics of system and specs below:




RDWC (Undercurrent System)

• 2" PvC connecting 6 8gal modules and a 13gal Epicenter which contains monitoring equipment. (pH, ppm 700 Scale, and Temp)
• 1000gph water pump for re-circulation
• 50gal est total volume
• 13gal Top Off Res

Water Aeration

• 100 L/min Air Pump Servicing the 6 8gal Modules
• 2x 20 L/min Air Pumps, 1 For Epicenter and 1 For RO water storage Res.
• 1 Generic aquarium pump for Top-Off res.
• Top of the line Ceramic Air Stones in all Buckets except one (I broke it.... I was sad... replaced with cheap aquarium stone )

Other Equipment

• 1/10 hp Chiller (Originally had it in the room, but moved it outside due to heat issues)
• 1000w HID. MH for veg, HPS for Flower (if I make it to flower).
• 6" Air Cooled Cool Tube Reflector: Carbon Scrubber to Light, to Fan, then out of room.
• 75GPD RO/DI filter system.

Strains/Medium

• Strains: 3x C-99 and 3x Blue Mystic from feminized seeds.
• Germinated in 1.5" Rockwool cubes
• 3" Net Pots in each Module with Hydroton surrounding the Rockwool.

Nutrients/Additives *STERILE RES*

• Advanced Nutrients pH perfect Sensi Grow and Bloom A&B
• Dutch Master Zone
• SM-90
• Botanicare Cal/Mag +
• H2O2

The Story:

For germination I just soaked the Rockwool and dropped the seeds in, they popped pretty quick and were looking strong. I placed them into the system as soon as I thought they could handle the HID. I put the light around 21/2 to 3 feet from tops, and set the ballast to 50%.

I fed them at around 1/8th strength Sensi Grow A&B and 1/4 Strength Cal/Mag. DMZ at 1ml/gal and SM-90 at 2ml/Gal.

The following pics were taken a few days after placing in system:

*C-99*


*Blue Mystic*

*Blue Mystic on Left (tower fan side) C-99 on the right*



They did pretty well at first. My pH was a little fucky, but it stabilized eventually.

I started to notice some brown stains inside the modules. When I looked closer I could see brown all over the top of the Rockwool. Turns out there were small gaps in the reflective bubble wrap insulation I used, and I had algae!

I Drained the system, scrubbed it, and refilled it with RO water, I don't remember the pH but it was fine.
I added 100mL H2O2 and DMZ to the Epicenter, no nutes or SM-90. I let that run for about 1 and 1/2, to 2 days. During that time I fixed my light proofing with aluminum tape, and black and white Poly. I also moved the chiller out of the room and put a 13 gal top-off res in its place.

I drained and refilled the system a few times with regular tap water to flush it all out. I know chlorine messes with plants but I don't think the roots were in it long enough to hurt them but I'm not sure.

I refilled the system with RO water then added 170mL of Sensi A&B, along with 60mL DMZ to the Epicenter. I did not put the Cal/Mag in this time because everything I have read about AN says you don't need it when using their base nutes, and it can mess with your pH. I also left the SM-90 out as I felt it was redundant, and was not worried about bugs.

The next day my Monitors read:

Air Temp: 80.6F
Water Temp: 69F
RH: 46%
pH: 5.6
PPM: 320

Everything Remained Stable for the next week or two except the humidity which dipped just below 40%.
They started looking wilted at one point so I gave them some RO foilar spray every now and then. The BM starting showing small amounts of "rust", and the C-99 were turning a little yellow. They were still growing well and looked healthy, so I let it ride.

These are pics taken 12 or so days after I put them into the system.

C-99


Blue Mystic





Couple of close ups of early damage to BM:




I thought it was nute burn because I was running the ppm higher than UC recommends at this phase. So the next day I drained about 30 gal out of the system and replaced with 30 Gal RO, and 30mL DMZ to bring the PPM down.


Air Temp: 81-79F
Water Temp: 67-69F
RH: 38-43%
pH: 6.0-6.1
PPM: 180

3 Days later they looked terrible. Wilted, with rust all over the lower leaves, and some starting on some of the newer growth. I thought it was the nute burn catching up so I drained some more water and lowered the PPM to around 90 by adding RO water and the appropriate amount of DMZ.

At the same time I also found what I think was a Weevil, crawling around on one of the leaves, I looked around pretty well and could not find any more.

I did some research on bugs, deficiencies, and nute burn that night, which in the end probably only ended up making me more panicked, and unsure of what was going on, and how to treat it.

The water was beautiful, no buildup of anything anywhere that I could see (fungus, algae ect.) It had to be bugs or nutes, so I added the appropriate amount of SM-90 before I went to bed.

Next morning they still looked terrible

The pH had gone up to 6.7 overnight which I attribute to the SM-90. I corrected the pH to around 6.1.

I then made a little stand and pulled all the plants out one by one. I inspected each one from top to bottom with a 30x and 60x microscope. The roots were slightly brown, but firm and not slimy at all so I think the color is just a little nutrient staining. I could not find anything nasty or crawly anywhere in the roots, the medium, or the stem/leaves.

I did notice a small amount of white "slime" or "snot", here and there, mostly on the rim of the net pots and some in the Hydroton. There was also some Brown Algae left over from before on the tops of a few of the cubes. Some of them had these tiny white things speckled about on top of the medium as well:



Small amount of white spots, and what I think is a little left over Algae:


This is an example of the "snot".


Some pics of the roots:




The leaves on the BM were trashed, and the C-99 looked like it was on its way to joining them. Stems look kind of purple to me as well:

BM Leaves:


BM:


C-99:


C-99:

I mixed some SM-90 at 5:1, and sprayed the medium and roots with it to finish off the Algae, and in case there were any bugs too small to see or hiding deep in the medium.

I flushed them thoroughly with RO and I tested the runoff. PPM was 0 but the pH was pretty high (7- 8 on the first two. I flushed the next couple before spraying SM-90 and tested that runoff, the pH was high, but not bad, I flushed again after letting the SM-90 sit for a few minutes.

I finished flushing and got the plants back in the system late that night. I had to leave my house early the next morning so I just ran down and checked the ppm and stuff real quick.
ppm: 80
pH: 5.7 or so

When I got home late that night my ppm had gone up to 160, but my pH was the same.

I opened the Epicenter and saw THIS!!!!! WTF?!?!?!




I checked the other buckets and they all had this to some degree, mostly in the corners:



Those pics were taken that night around midnight. I cleaned out the gunk (it was pretty easy to do) and looked the plants over before going to bed. They still looked pretty sad.

Yesterday morning ppm was still 160, everything else the same, plants look droopy and sad. I have misted them a few times with about 6:1 ratio of SM-90 with a very small amount of Cal/Mag added.

This is how they look this morning:

PPM: 150
pH 5.7

Blue Mystic:



C-99:







I have no idea if the damage was from bugs that are now gone, nute burn, starvation/deficiency, or a combination of all of them. The new growth looks good except for being wilted and droopy.

As I wrote this and organized everything, the evidence seems to point to starvation but I'm afraid to overfeed and finish them off. I am going down right now to change out the water, I am out of SM-90 so I'm just going to add the DMZ to RO and mix up some nutes. I don't know what to mix them at, but I'm going to try for around 200ppm I think. I WILL be adding the Cal/Mag again. If you don't think that was ever a problem please let me know as I would rather not use it if I don't have to.

From there I'm going to keep a close eye on the new growth and drop the PPM again if I see anything resembling a burn.

I can go to the hydro store today or tomorrow and pick up anything I might need to help them out. My shopping list looks like this for now:

1. SM-90 -I really don't want to add this for the entire grow, but if its safer to keep it in the res then I'm down with that, just worried about pH with it.
2. Bayer tree and shrub -to have on hand just in case
3. Physan 20 -same as Bayer, want to have it on hand just in case.
4. Foggers -I kind of want to fog the room, and the areas outside of the room just to be sure. I'm unsure about fogging IN the room though.

But like I said, for now I'm going down to drain, and refill the system. Just not sure what to put in for Nutes and Additives.

I would really like to hear what the experienced growers think happened here, and I would GREATLY appreciate any advice on how to proceed.

I'll be checking this thread often throughout the day. I will respond ASAP to any requests for additional pictures or information.

Thank you so much for your time and advice!

I vote nute burn..

I like your setup very adwanced. This might help you.
http://www.growweedeasy.com/cannabis-symptoms-pictures

Awsome set up, had to throw that in there, not that this is your problem but you can put the rockwool deeper in the net pot next time, make sure the water is not above the bottom of the net pots also.

Trying too hard and feeding too hard for younguns.

Thanks for the compliments on my setup, I'm pretty proud of it. A lot of good its doing me...

I keep thinking nute burn too. Whats throwing me off is that they seemed to do fine at the high ppm for a while. The purple stems, and the Cal/Mag thing are throwing some doubt in there. And I can't make any sense of that sludge that was inside of the buckets after I treated with SM-90.

I have them at about 160ppm right now, I hope thats not too much if it was nute burn, and I hope its enough if it was a Cal/Mag or bug thing.

GIJonas said:

Trying too hard and feeding too hard for younguns.

Click to expand...

You think nute burn too? Do you think keeping them at 170ish for now is ok or should I go lower? Thanks for any advice.

That's not nute burn, its a deficiency. Your ppms are too low or you need to add more Cal/Mag...maybe both. I use tap water though and have never needed to use Cal/Mag.

I believe the yellow stuff is dead root matter. Possibly from the SM-90. I would get the same thing when I used H2O2. I now use pool shock or bleach

You also want to make sure that rockwool cube is above the water level. The stump will rot if it stays too wet.

redi jedi said:

You also want to make sure that rockwool cube is above the water level. The stump will rot if it stays too wet.

Click to expand...

That's a good point as well. And why ro water?

redi jedi said:

That's not nute burn, its a deficiency. Your ppms are too low or you need to add more Cal/Mag...maybe both. I use tap water though and have never needed to use Cal/Mag.

I believe the yellow stuff is dead root matter. Possibly from the SM-90. I would get the same thing when I used H2O2. I now use pool shock or bleach

Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply Brother!

My ppm's were running around 300 before but no Cal/Mag. I now have it at 170 but with Cal/Mag.

Would you recommend bringing it back up to 300's? And how aggressive should I be with the Cal/Mag? Just run it at normal conservative levels, (1/4 strength) or should I put a little extra in?

redi jedi said:

You also want to make sure that rockwool cube is above the water level. The stump will rot if it stays too wet.

Click to expand...

I have the water level set around 1/2 to 1 inch below the bottom of the Rockwool. I feel like its a little high but that is what UC recommends when using Rockwool.

There is a decent amount of hydroton between the Rockwool and the water. I thought that would help keep it a little more dry, but it still seems to stay pretty wet from all the aeration I have in there. What should I keep an eye out for to catch any rot early?

GIJonas said:

That's a good point as well. And why ro water?

Click to expand...

I use RO water to keep things as simple as possible. Starting with 0ppm water makes it easier for me to think about nutes and stuff, and I just like the idea of starting with very pure water.

Thanks for your replies guys! I'll be keeping an eye out here for anymore ideas or advice! Peace!

Cal/mag is very necessary.

Yeah running no cal mag with ro is a disaster waiting. Didn't pick up on that at first. Pretty hard to overdue calmag really.

Coho said:

Cal/mag is very necessary.

Click to expand...

Ugh, should have kept the Cal/Mag in!

Is droopiness the thing to look for when trying to decide if its deficiency, or burn?

Thanks for your input brother!

GIJonas said:

Yeah running no cal mag with ro is a disaster waiting. Didn't pick up on that at first. Pretty hard to overdue calmag really.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I had a lot going on in that gigantic post! Sorry about that, I just wanted to be thorough.

So do you think I'm good for now with the 1/4 strength in there, or should I up the Cal/Mag a little?

Also, how long before I should start seeing results from changes like this? I remember reading somewhere 3 days in hydro? I can't find it again when searching around forums.

Thanks!

TheMadHatter87 said:

Thanks for your reply Brother!

My ppm's were running around 300 before but no Cal/Mag. I now have it at 170 but with Cal/Mag.

Would you recommend bringing it back up to 300's? And how aggressive should I be with the Cal/Mag? Just run it at normal conservative levels, (1/4 strength) or should I put a little extra in?



I have the water level set around 1/2 to 1 inch below the bottom of the Rockwool. I feel like its a little high but that is what UC recommends when using Rockwool.

There is a decent amount of hydroton between the Rockwool and the water. I thought that would help keep it a little more dry, but it still seems to stay pretty wet from all the aeration I have in there. What should I keep an eye out for to catch any rot early?



I use RO water to keep things as simple as possible. Starting with 0ppm water makes it easier for me to think about nutes and stuff, and I just like the idea of starting with very pure water.

Thanks for your replies guys! I'll be keeping an eye out here for anymore ideas or advice! Peace!

Click to expand...

Yes I would definitely go back to 300ppm or more. I cant give you any advice on the cal/mag...never used it. I know its usually needed with RO but a decent fertilizer should already have enough cal/mag IMO. Maybe because your mixing so weak, there's not enough.

That water level is good for when your roots havent reached the water yet. You have plenty of roots in the water so drop that level until the cube stays dry. The wet cube is causing the droop. Nute burn starts at the tips of the leaves.