Questions regarding seed production

Discussion in 'Breeders Paradise' started by Bleedslikeavirgin, Feb 13, 2013.

  1.  
    Bleedslikeavirgin

    Bleedslikeavirgin Member

    Hello,

    I'm on my 3rd grow and currently trying to make seeds. Here's a couple of questions I have.

    1. While producing seeds, should I continue using the same feeding schedule as during the flowering phase?
    2. I mixed my seeds (THC bomb, Big Bud), should I be able to distinct them during the flowering? They're currently in 4th week veg and look the same to me.
    3. Feminized or regular seeds? I've read some info about feminized seeds that they should be more prone to becoming hermies during flowering and some are even saying they possess inferior genetics when compared to regular seed. I would like to have feminized seeds in order to maximize female plants, but I don't want to risk having inferior genetics or or plants that go easily hermie. Any thoughts about that?

    I'll post more questions as I progress.

    Thanks in advance.
  2.  
    Kite High

    Kite High Well-Known Member

    all the downing of fem seeds is pure poppycock..they are at least as good and stable as the regs they came from

    for seed production no high P ferts...use a fert which contains nickel and cobalt as they are essential to seed production

    and will be nearly impossible to distinguish in veg but hopefully will assert their commonalities/differences in flower

    and if you would like to breed from fems for fems even crosses here you go

    The following is a safe, inexpensive, and successful method for reversing the sex of female cannabis plants. Individual plant responses may vary based upon strain, but I can verify that this process is fully effective in stimulating profuse staminate flower production.

    This process can be used to:
    A: create new feminized seeds from solitary prize mothers that you currently have
    B: create interesting feminized-seed hybrids from different prize strains that you currently have
    C: create feminized seeds for optimum outdoor use
    D: accelerate the "interview" phase of cultivation, in searching for interesting new clone-mothers
    E: reduce total plant numbers- great for medical users with severe plant number restrictions
    F: increase variety, by helping to create stable feminized seedlines to be used as an alternative to clones

    At the bottom of this post are some specific details about the chemicals used, their safety, their cost, and where to get them.

    It is important to educate yourself about cannabis breeding theory and technique prior to using a method like this one. Here is a link to Robert Clarke's "Marijuana Botany", which is a very good reference.

    http://planetganja.net/Ebooks/Marijuana%20Botany.pdf

    It is also important to use basic safety precautions when mixing and handling these chemicals, so read the safety data links provided. The risk is similar to mixing and handling chemical fertilizers, and similar handling procedures are sufficient.

    Remember: nothing will ever replace good genetics, and some of your bounty should always go back towards the professional cannabis breeders out there... the ones who have worked for many generations to come up with their true-breeding F1 masterpieces. Support professional breeders by buying their seeds. Also, order from Heaven's Stairway. Not that they need a plug from me, but they are very professional and provide very fast service worldwide.

    Preparation of STS:
    First, a stock solution is made. It consists of two parts (A and B) that are initially mixed separately, then blended together. Part A is ALWAYS mixed into part B while stirring rapidly. Use distilled water; tap water may cause precipitates to form.

    Wear gloves while mixing and using these chemicals, and mix and use in a properly ventilated area. A mask will prevent the breathing of any dust, which is caustic. STS is colorless and odorless, and poses minimal health risks if used as described here. (See material safety data sheet links below). Note that silver nitrate and STS can cause brown stains upon drying, so spray over newspaper and avoid spilling.

    Part A: 0.5 gram silver nitrate stirred into 500ml distilled water
    Part B: 2.5 grams sodium thiosulfate (anhydrous) stirred into 500ml distilled water

    The silver nitrate dissolves within 15 seconds. The sodium thiosulfate takes 30-45 seconds to dissolve.

    The silver nitrate solution (A) is then mixed into the sodium thiosulfate solution (B) while stirring rapidly. The resulting blend is stock silver thiosulfate solution (STS).

    This stock solution is then diluted at a ratio of 1:9 to make a working solution. For example, 100ml of stock STS is added to 900ml of distilled water. This is then sprayed on select female plants.

    Both the stock STS and the working solution should be refrigerated after use, as well as the powdered chemicals, to avoid activity loss. Excess working solution can be safely poured down the drain after use (with ample running water) with negligible environmental impact. It's pretty cheap.

    Each liter of stock STS will make ten 1-liter batches of working solution of STS. With the minimum amount of base chemicals ordered from Photographer's Formulary (see link below), this means that each 1-liter bottle of working solution STS costs less than 9 cents, and can treat 15-20 mid-sized plants. That's 200 1-liter batches of STS for $18. Note that the distilled water costs far more than the chemicals.

    Application:
    The STS working solution is sprayed on select female plants until runoff. Do the spraying over newspaper in a separate area from the flower room. You probably won't smell anything, but ventilate anyway. You now have what I call a "F>M plant"; a female plant that will produce male flowers.

    After the F>M plant dries move it into 12/12 immediately. This is usually done three to four weeks prior to the date that the target (to be pollinated) plants will be ready to pollinate. Response times may vary slightly depending upon the strain. More specific times can be determined by trial with your own individual strains. In my trials it took 26 days for the first pollen. 30-35 days seems optimum for planning purposes.

    So, assuming that a target plant needs 3-4 weeks to produce fully mature seeds, a strain that takes 8 weeks to mature should be moved into flower at about the same time as the female>male plant. A target plant that finishes flowering in 6 weeks needs to be moved into flower later (10 days or so) so that it doesn't finish before the seeds can fully mature.

    A seeded individual branch can be left to mature on a plant for a bit longer, while harvesting the other seedless buds if they finish first. Just leave enough leaves on for the plant for it to stay healthy.

    Effects:
    Within days I noticed a yellowing of the leaves on the F>M plants. This effect persisted for two weeks or so; after this they became green again, except for a few of the larger fans. The plants otherwise seemed healthy. No burning was observed. Growth stopped dead for the first ten days, and then resumed slowly. No stretch was ever seen. After two weeks the F>M plants were obviously forming male flower clusters. Not just a few clusters of balls, but complete male flower tops. One plant still formed some pistillate flowers, but overall it was predominantly male.

    It is strange indeed to see an old girlfriend that you know like the back of your hand go through a sex change. I'll admit that things were awkward between us at first.

    When the F>M plants look like they may soon open and release pollen, ( 3-1/2 to 4 weeks) move them from the main flower room into another unventilated room or closet with lighting on a 12/12 timer. Don't worry too much about watts per square foot; it will only be temporary.

    When the pollen flies, move your target plants into the closet and pollinate.

    A more controlled approach is to isolate the F>M plants in a third remote closet (no light is necessary in this one, as they are releasing pollen now and are nearly finished anyway). In this remote other closet the pollen is very carefully collected in a plastic produce bag or newspaper sleeve and then brought back to the lighted closet, where the target plants are now located. If this is done, be careful to not mix pollen types by letting the F>Ms dust each other. Avoid movement, or use yet another closet.

    Take special care to not let pollen gather on the outside of this bag- a static charge is sometimes present. Drop small open clusters of blooms inside and then close the bag at the mouth and shake. Important: next, step outside and slowly release the excess air from the bag, collapsing it completely, so that pollen doesn't get released accidently. Point downwind; don't let it get on your hands or clothes.

    This collapsed pollinated bag is now very carefully slipped over only one branch and is then tied off tightly at the mouth around the branch stem with a twist tie or tape, sealing the pollen inside. Let the bag inflate slightly with air again before sealing it off, so the branch can breathe. This technique keeps the entire plant from seeding. Agitate the bag a bit after tying it off to distribute the pollen. Don't forget to label the branch so you know which seeds are which. Other branches on this same plant can be hit with different pollen sources.

    If no lighted closet is available, the plant can be moved back into the main room, but- be very carefulollen is sneaky. After 4-5 days, the bag is gently removed and the plant completes it's flowering cycle.

    Yet another method has worked well for me. I position the target plants in a non-ventilated lighted closet, and then I collect pollen on a piece of mirror or glass. This is then carefully applied to the pistils of one pre-labeled branch by using a very fine watercolor paintbrush. Care is taken to not agitate the branch or the pollen. No sneezing. The plant needs to be in place first; moving it after pollination can shake pollen free and blow this technique.

    Regardless of technique, at completion you will have feminized seeds. Let them dry for 2-4 weeks.

    About the chemicals:
    Silver nitrate is a white crystalline light-sensitive chemical that is commonly used in photography. It is also used in babies' eyes at birth to prevent blindness. It can cause mild skin irritation, and it stains brown. Avoid breathing. I didn't notice any smell or fumes, but ventilation is recommended. Be sure to wash the spray bottle well before you use it elsewhere; better yet: devote a bottle to STS use. A half gram is a surprisingly small amount; it would fit inside a gel capsule.

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    .preparation of silver thiosulfate (sts) solution

    silver thiosulfate (sts) is commonly used to block the action of ethylene in plant cell cultures. Ethylene is a hormone that is present in the gaseous state. Ethylene increases during senescence and ripening, and has been shown to increase in plant cell cultures due to wounding or the presence of auxins. Silver nitrate may be used alone to block the action of ethylene but it is not transported as well as sts thus is seldom used alone.

    Prepare a 0.1 m sodium thiosulfate (sts) stock solution by dissolving 1.58 g of sodium thiosulfate (product no. S 620) into 100 ml of water. Prepare a 0.1 m silver nitrate stock solution by dissolving 1.7 g of silver nitrate (product no. S 169) into 100 ml of water. Store the stock solution in the dark until needed to prepare the sts.

    The sts solution is prepared with a molar ratio between silver and thiosulfate of 1:4, respectively. Nearly all of the silver present in the solution is in the form of [ag (s2o3)2]3-, the active complex for ethylene effect inhibition.
    Prepare a 0.02 m sts by slowly pouring 20 ml of 0.1 m silver nitrate stock solution into 80 ml of 0.1 m sodium thiosulfate stock solution. The sts can be stored in the refrigerator for up to a month. However, preparation of the sts just prior to use is recommended.

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    [​IMG]



    A SIMPLE SAFE AND INEXPENSIVE FEMMING METHOD

    LINKS TO THE CHEMICALS:

    sodium thiosulfate

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...10_1370_1LB_Sodium_Thiosulfate_Anhydrous.html

    Silver Nitrate

    http://secure.sciencecompany.com/Silver-Nitrate-10g-P6503.aspx
    eastcoastmo likes this.
  3.  
    eastcoastmo

    eastcoastmo Well-Known Member

    Also as Trouser has said in many threads, the offspring are only as likely to hermie as the parents are. The information about feminized seeds being more prone to hermie traits is not correct.
    Kite High likes this.
  4.  
    Apomixis

    Apomixis Active Member

    Very nice. Super easy to follow, very thorough.
    That is the dankest science I think I have ever seen.
    i do have one question...
    Why not buy some flowers and use the STS packet they give you for free?
  5.  
    Vincent VonBlown

    Vincent VonBlown New Member

    I don't see any problem with feminized seeds.

    Of course if you order a strain, let's just say Skunk #1 for example. And they have a regular version and a fem version.

    The fem version can be somewhat different. Because although it is the same strain the parents have to be somewhat different.

    As you won't be using the same male (or a male at all) to make the fem seeds. That was used to make the regular seed.

    The only way to defeat that flaw that I see, would be to have the chemically altered male pollinate itself. Then you could zero in on what you want even more closely actually.

    However, that may produce some type of hermie seed. As my Wonderjacks clone is a product of a herm mother that pollinated itself. And the seed showed about 50% hermies and or males. The hermaphrodation wasn't exssesive, even a big size plant might have only 1 pollen sac emerge. But still that's enough to make about 300 seeds or so, and there was hermies.
  6.  
    Vincent VonBlown

    Vincent VonBlown New Member

    But like they say, you get new and different things, from upset gene pools. Genetics that are stable, pretty much aren't going anywhere. Unless they are hybridized, or hermed, something to stir the pot, and make it happen.

    a27.PNG
    On the right, is the herm mother I was talking about (the vito cutting). On the left the legendary Thunderstruck cutting. Both were cuts flowered at about the same size... The thunderstruck cutting is very good yielder. The stirring of the pot by hybridizing with ditch weed. Created Vito, one of the most impressive cuttings I've seen. (both plants were flowered under fluroscent lights only)

    Vito is also a very good example, of light regime protocall. You might not be aware of it, but different strains/females. Will produce differently from different types of light. Such as natural light from outdoors, Fluroscent or LED, then you have your HIDs which are metal halide, and high pressure sodium.

    Vito, was better smoke under the fluroscent lights, then the Thunderstruck clone was. The situation was completly reversed under HIDs.
  7.  
    Kite High

    Kite High Well-Known Member

    yes the survival gene selfing(rodelization) will inadvertently encourage expression in the progeny ...but chemically (cs, sts, gibberellins or cobalt solutions) induced selfing does not cause this effect and therefore is more suitable for crossing, selfing, for stability
  8.  
    Kite High

    Kite High Well-Known Member

    because it may not be strong enough and/or old and time greatly reduces its effectiveness...besides the chem are really inexpensive
  9.  
    Bleedslikeavirgin

    Bleedslikeavirgin Member

    I collected some pollen and left it to dry 1 - 2 weeks in room temperature before using it to pollinate the females. Should the pollen still be viable?
  10.  
    Bleedslikeavirgin

    Bleedslikeavirgin Member

    Nevermind; turns out my controlled attempt was a wee uncontrolled, so at least I'm definitely going to get the seeds I want.

    One more question: one calyx seems to be open and a green seed is sticking out of it. Is this normal, since the green seed is hardly mature?

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