Prop 8 : what has this state and country came to ?

TWS

Well-Known Member
I respect the views on gay marriage but do oppose it. What I don't respect is the supreme court over ruling the peoples vote and doing what they please. This is scary. :shock: This means one panel of judges can over throw our Prop 215 at their will. The only reason they won't because they won't recognize it as the will of the people to start with it. Just like prop 8. Our government is nothing but a tyrant and Im starting to feel third world for sure.
 

richard805

Active Member
It's like a waste of time voting here in California.... And about prop 8.. I could care less what they do just don't try pushing that shit in schools. I don't want my daughter around that shit...
 

Mithrandir420

Well-Known Member
You don't vote to oppress people. You don't vote on civil rights, which is why it was overturned. If you don't understand why you need to go back to high school civics class since you obviously do not understand how our government is supposed to work. Here's a hint... voter initiatives like props 8 and 215 are wrong. There is a reason we are a republic, and not a direct democracy. It because of shit heads who would try to oppress a minority group. Kinda like how marijuana is illegal for no good reason... oppression.

Gay people getting married does nothing to you so get over it. Your daughter isn't going to turn gay from being around them. I can't believe people are still this ignorant and UNAMERICAN. If you want a government to oppress people you don't like go to a third world shit hole country and try it out. Maybe go to a muslim country or somewhere in Africa where it's illegal to be gay.
 

TWS

Well-Known Member
Point taken and in a different view now. Did not look at it that way. I Don't care if they get married or not but in my religious view which ain't much just doesn't seam right but it doesn't affect me so I don't care. My issue was it was voted against it and over turned by a judge. But in truth I suppose it was oppression. point taken........... in that case we are over oppressed by a lot of things ?
 

ReefBongwell

Well-Known Member
Well I for one am with you (being a libertarian) in believing since it doesn't affect me, I don't really care if people of the same sex get married or have a problem with it. But it's not oppressing people to not grant someone a right they made up and never had. There never was gay marriage that was taken away from them - the definition of marriage has been man and women since the dawn of time - while you can disagree with people on the definition, to say those people are evil and oppressing the rest because they don't want to change it is demagoging an honest point of view. Also while I again err on the side of liberty, you're old and out of touch if you don't think this cultural shift is having an effect on our kids. I'm not sure if you have had a millenial teenager -- I have. Bisexuality and same sex expirimentation is widespread from MIDDLE SCHOOL up today. And we live in a relatively conservative area. Now maybe you don't have a problem with that, but it wasn't like that when I grew up in the 80s so if you're cool with it say so but don't pretend it's not how it is. Maybe you are just out of touch and don't have a kid growing up in public schools these days. Believe me it's an eye opener. Oh and also the attitude is completely that it's no big thing. Also not the way it was when I grew up. I'm not saying when I grew up was some awesome or perfect time, but I do think they can wait til they're out of middle school before orgies and buggery (that's what high school's for??). That being said, I'd still rather live in a world where parents teach their kids values rather than having people penalized or restricted by the force of government. It's amazing how many people on here want to free the weed but don't believe in a lot of other liberties.
 

Mithrandir420

Well-Known Member
We are absolutely over oppressed. Think about this regarding prop 8... most of the money and sponsorship for it came from OUT OF STATE. So basically we had non Californians decide what to do with our state.

It was overturned by a PANEL of judges who are experts in this law, because they realized that it was an illegal law. Not because of personal feelings. Read the decision. Read the dissention.

As for religion, well, assuming you are christian of some flavor we'll just say that being nice to people is mention by Jesus far far more than the entire bible mentions anything about homosexuality. Also, all passages regarding homosexuality also condemns people in like manner for masturbation and pre marital sex. Are you sure you really want to pick and choose which passages you believe and follow and which ones you don't? I want to Catholic school, almost went to seminary and everything I learned says that pretty much all sin is equal.

And here's the thing about "rights"... The constitution and BoR do not create them, they merely recognize SOME of them. The right to gay marriage is about two things: 1) The right to pursue happiness. and 2) Equal protection under the law. It effects all of us as much as it effects gay people.
 

Ballsonrawls

Well-Known Member
i like what danny devito said on its always sunny in philadelphia. "if gays wanna get married and be miserable like the rest of us, let 'em. its no skin off my ass"
 

ReefBongwell

Well-Known Member
We are absolutely over oppressed. Think about this regarding prop 8... most of the money and sponsorship for it came from OUT OF STATE. So basically we had non Californians decide what to do with our state.
Not gonna argue with you on the other stuff, but disagree with you on this... you can run a million commercials on something I disagree with, it's not going to change my mind... money doesn't win elections unless the people support that position. If you're argument is that too many people are too stupid to not make up their mind based on the last commercial they saw, then I wholeheartedly agree with you that we should have intelligence restrictions on voting :) Unfortunately, that's illegal since requiring an educated voter is discriminatory against minorities (at least sayeth the supreme court) ;)
 

Mithrandir420

Well-Known Member
The thing that should bug all of us is that we're trying to make decisions about how OTHER people can and can't live their lives. And that ain't right.

Also, there aer a lot of gay smokers. Think about how organized they are in their movement. Imagine if we could get some of their leaders to organize our movement instead of the (mostly) stoners and sneaky money grubbers we have now.

Not gonna argue with you on the other stuff, but disagree with you on this... you can run a million commercials on something I disagree with, it's not going to change my mind... money doesn't win elections unless the people support that position. If you're argument is that too many people are too stupid to not make up their mind based on the last commercial they saw, then I wholeheartedly agree with you that we should have intelligence restrictions on voting :) Unfortunately, that's illegal since requiring an educated voter is discriminatory against minorities (at least sayeth the supreme court) ;)
It may not change your mind but WILL make up the mind of millions of other voters. There is a reason why companies spend so much on advertising... it works! The companies that advertise the most have the highest sales. Actually Reef, money DOES win elections. The props and politicians who spend the most typically win. When was the last time you saw a politician who was not rich, that had to go to his 20 dollar an hour job every day to make ends meet and won an election. They are extremely rare. I'm not worried about the Reefs of the world, or even the TWS's. I am worried about the millions who don't even bother to think about things as much as we are here, now.
 

ReefBongwell

Well-Known Member
That bugs me always Mith! I keep tryin to tell people but you know how it is the people who wanna tell people how to live their lives don't want to listen to someone telling them they shouldn't :)
 

Mithrandir420

Well-Known Member
Also, gays are typically DINKS (Double Income No Kids) and have lots of spending cash. If you're not suppling the gays you are missing out on a significant market share. :)
 

Mithrandir420

Well-Known Member
Go ahead, run an unfiltered Google image search for "twinks". Sure wish I hadn't. :o Heh heh. Seriously though, I always heard it called dinks. Maybe regional language differences?
 

Someacdude

Active Member
Im between la and san fran and if both slid into the ocean none of these ranchers would blink an eye.
Rabid fangstein and maxipad waters
 

Mithrandir420

Well-Known Member
Well I for one am with you (being a libertarian) in believing since it doesn't affect me, I don't really care if people of the same sex get married or have a problem with it. But it's not oppressing people to not grant someone a right they made up and never had. There never was gay marriage that was taken away from them - the definition of marriage has been man and women since the dawn of time - while you can disagree with people on the definition, to say those people are evil and oppressing the rest because they don't want to change it is demagoging an honest point of view. Also while I again err on the side of liberty, you're old and out of touch if you don't think this cultural shift is having an effect on our kids. I'm not sure if you have had a millenial teenager -- I have. Bisexuality and same sex expirimentation is widespread from MIDDLE SCHOOL up today. And we live in a relatively conservative area. Now maybe you don't have a problem with that, but it wasn't like that when I grew up in the 80s so if you're cool with it say so but don't pretend it's not how it is. Maybe you are just out of touch and don't have a kid growing up in public schools these days. Believe me it's an eye opener. Oh and also the attitude is completely that it's no big thing. Also not the way it was when I grew up. I'm not saying when I grew up was some awesome or perfect time, but I do think they can wait til they're out of middle school before orgies and buggery (that's what high school's for??). That being said, I'd still rather live in a world where parents teach their kids values rather than having people penalized or restricted by the force of government. It's amazing how many people on here want to free the weed but don't believe in a lot of other liberties.
I am thinking about this.

On the one hand I want to discuss Some of it, but on the other hand we already reach a positive conclusion with your next to last sentence.

"That being said, I'd still rather live in a world where parents teach their kids values rather than having people penalized or restricted by the force of government."

IMO that is exactly what we should all strive for as Americans. No that we accept something we do not agree with, such as homosexuality, or polygamy, but that we respect each other enough to say that I will not oppress my fellow American who is not harming me and that we will stand up in the face of governmental oppression together before we decide to like or dislike each other as neighbors. To me, one of the most Unamerican things we can do is to tell each other how to live our lives.

Growing up in So Cal (I was in high school in the late 80's) you end up with all kinds of friends and acquaintances. I have friends who are gay, I have a couple of friends who are trannys. They say the same things. They just want the same rights that every other American has. And to be treated with respect as a fellow citizen and human being. Seems reasonable. I'm not saying you, but I have noticed some serious hostility towards LGBT people in the cannabis community. It's sad, really.


Anyway, I agree. No matter what's actually happening in society, I want the freedom to raise and teach my kid as I see fit, not as the gov't sees fit. And certainly not by governmental force.
 

D619

Well-Known Member
Libertarians believe in the American heritage of liberty, enterprise, and personal responsibility. Libertarians recognize the responsibility we all share to preserve this precious heritage for our children and grandchildren.

Free and Independent

Libertarians believe that being free and independent is a great way to live. We want a system which encourages all people to choose what they want from life; that lets them live, love, work, play, and dream their own way.

Caring For People

The Libertarian way is a caring, people-centered approach to politics. We believe each individual is unique. We want a system which respects the individual and encourages us to discover the best within ourselves and develop our full potential.

Principled; Consistent

The Libertarian way is a logically consistent approach to politics based on the moral principle of self-ownership. Each individual has the right to control his or her own body, action, speech, and property. Government's only role is to help individuals defend themselves from force and fraud.

Tolerant

The Libertarian Party is for all who don't want to push other people around and don't want to be pushed around themselves. Live and let live is the Libertarian way.
 

ReefBongwell

Well-Known Member
Libertarians believe in the American heritage of liberty, enterprise, and personal responsibility. Libertarians recognize the responsibility we all share to preserve this precious heritage for our children and grandchildren.

Free and Independent

Libertarians believe that being free and independent is a great way to live. We want a system which encourages all people to choose what they want from life; that lets them live, love, work, play, and dream their own way.

Caring For People

The Libertarian way is a caring, people-centered approach to politics. We believe each individual is unique. We want a system which respects the individual and encourages us to discover the best within ourselves and develop our full potential.

Principled; Consistent

The Libertarian way is a logically consistent approach to politics based on the moral principle of self-ownership. Each individual has the right to control his or her own body, action, speech, and property. Government's only role is to help individuals defend themselves from force and fraud.

Tolerant

The Libertarian Party is for all who don't want to push other people around and don't want to be pushed around themselves. Live and let live is the Libertarian way.
^^ Exactly. Notice libertarian doesn't mean you agree with everyone else and like everything they do... it just doesn't mean you don't want the government to come down on them just because you don't like what they're doing (as long as they're not infringing on someone else's rights in doing so). When I first heard libertarians speak in high school I thought they were CRAZY talking about how the government compels you at the force of a gun to take your money, do what they want, etc... my biggest worry was my parents then :) Now I understand. IMO the left and right are just about equally bad. Both have some things right, and both are prepared to watch the country burn before they'll let the OTHER side (or anybody else really) run the country any other way than what they personally believe is the correct moral/ethical system.
 

D619

Well-Known Member
Right or Left leads to the same destination. It's just a game to keep us divided. It's quite genius to say the least . TV.. The greatest weapon of mass deception.
 
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