Plants want low PPFD??

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Look up the Chandra paper and you'll see the source of that data. The money shot is here:

Chandra - Cannabis photosynthesis vs PPFD and Temp.png

And it's used to justify those sorts of light levels.

When growlightmeter published the first version of that chart, I asked if they had supporting research and the reply was that I should check the footnotes on each page on their site. There were no footnotes. I don't know if they've updated their site but Chandra is the big study on net P and PPFD.

I read that paper soon after I started growing and I followed the light levels that they're recommending. But what didn't make sense to me was how everyone doing research was saying to use scads of light but the Chandra paper was showing something completely different.

Raise your hand if you're harvesting net photosynthesis.

Anyone?

No, and that's what made me think that there was more to the story.

As the author in the attached "Frontiers paper" says, testing the gaseous output of a sample of leaves in a grow chamber is, perhaps, not a valid method of trying to determine the yield of a plant. Yes, you can see how much net P you'll get from a handful of leaves so if you want to harvest net photosynthesis that's very helpful.

Again, raise your hand if you're harvesting net photosynthesis.

No one? Then why is it being thrown up on a site about growing cannabis?

I have no reason to believe that the graphic is not offered in good faith. But I have no reason to follow it because I'm not interested in net photosynthesis. I assumed that net P was a valid proxy for crop yield and it wasn't until I started looking a little deeper when I realized that was wrong.

Per the Frontiers paper, attached, from the Discussion section.

"Cannabis Inflorescence Yield Is Proportional to Light Intensity
It was predicted that cannabis yield would exhibit a saturating response to increasing LI, thereby signifying an optimum LI range for indoor cannabis production. However, the yield results of this trial demonstrated cannabis’ immense plasticity for exploiting the incident lighting environment by efficiently increasing marketable biomass up to extremely high—for indoor production—LIs (Figure 7A). Even under ambient CO2 , the linear increases in yield indicated that the availability of PAR photons was still limiting whole-canopy photosynthesis at APPFD levels as high as ≈1,800 μmol·m−2·s−1 (i.e., DLI ≈78 mol·m−2 ·d−1 ). These results were generally consistent with the trends of other studies reporting linear cannabis yield responses to LI (Vanhove et al., 2011; Potter and Duncombe, 2012; Eaves et al., 2020), although there is considerable variability in both relative and absolute yield responses to LI in these prior works. The present study covered a broader range of LI, and with much higher granularity, compared with other similar studies.
The lack of a saturating yield response at such high LI is an important distinction between cannabis and other crops grown in controlled environments (Faust, 2003; Beaman et al., 2009; Oh et al., 2009; Fernandes et al., 2013). This also means that the selection of an “optimum” LI for indoor cannabis production can be made somewhat independently from its yield response to LI. Effectively, within the range of practical indoor PPFD levels— the more light that is provided, the proportionally higher the increase in yield will be. Therefore, the question of the optimum LI may be reduced to more practical functions of economics and infrastructure limitations: basically, how much lighting capacity can a grower afford to install and run?" (emphasis mine)

So why the recommendations for a PPFD of 600 or somesuch? For one, it's good business — I'm not going to recommend that growers get anywhere near "the limits" using my product because I know that a significant percentage of this people will step on their metaphorical d*ck and I will get the blame. It's much better for a company to make recommendations that result in uniformly content customers than to make a recommendation that ends up with even a small percentage of really pissed off customers.

Check out the light level recommendations from Mars, Vipar, Spider, etc. To their credit, they are recommending pretty high light levels. That's changed in the three years that I've been growing and hats off to them for doing that. On the other hand, conventional wisdom and across a large number of cannabis sites, you'll see recommendations for much lower levels of light.

600 PPFD will not result in a bad crop. It will result in a good crop. Per the Frontiers paper, we can see the results of 600 PPFD and other values because they provide the formula for the yield curve. I've created the table below, based on that yield curve (figure 7).

1710173330103.png

Yup, a 50µmol increase from 600 to 650 resulted in a 5% greater harvest. OK, that's just 5%. Turn the dimmer up a little bit more. Kinda fun, eh? More light more weed! Of course there are limits (there are no solutions, just tradeoffs) but, as long as light is the limiting factor, yield and "quality" (the ratio of dried flower weight to dried weight of total above ground mass) will tend to increase.

That's one reason why companies are improving their lights. Check out the Spider G4500 PPFD map. That's a thing of beauty. It puts my three year old Growcraft to shame and the difference in PPFD will result in bigger harvests. The Vipar XS 1500 Pro is kick ass and so is the Spider SE 7000. Great lights in the respective tent size that provide a very high output of even light.

And I put my money where my mouth is. My data from yesterday with samples from 14 colas. Growcraft X3 at 306 watts. Hang height is 13"±. There are no signs of light stress.
1710173378705.png

And daily light data from drop to flip. Puck is a Rapid LED Royal Blue puck. Veg light and flower lights are Growcraft X3 lights. Early in the grow, I had a few leaves start to taco so I dropped some light for a day or two (probably 100µmol). Other than that, nada.

1710173491274.png

The net P graphic is accurate and of value for growers who are interested in maximizing photosynthesis. Growers who are interested in the impact of light on the size and quality of their crop would do better reading the Frontiers paper.

Or, say "Fuck it" and turn it up to 11*.



*Yeah, I understand the meaning of the phrase but, heh, I'm on a roll…
 

Attachments

Fallguy111

Well-Known Member
Last grow I catered to one plant that received ~950ppfd throughout flower and was happy and healthy. I also had 3 c99’s I grew along side that received around 750 ppfd and they had quite a bit of light burn. I use a photobio par meter and for me is a must when it comes to LEDs. I tried a lux meter but it’s inconsistent when I tried it, I think it has to do with the red diodes reading significantly different per inch distance than the white ones.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Last grow I catered to one plant that received ~950ppfd throughout flower and was happy and healthy. I also had 3 c99’s I grew along side that received around 750 ppfd and they had quite a bit of light burn. I use a photobio par meter and for me is a must when it comes to LEDs. I tried a lux meter but it’s inconsistent when I tried it, I think it has to do with the red diodes reading significantly different per inch distance than the white ones.
Good feedback. The light saturation point is different for each plant in each grow.

Re. the photobio - that sensor cannot read above 660nm. If you're using a light with far red, you'll want to add in a percentage to account for that. I've attached an Apogee study that touches on that.

Re. the lux meter - using a lux meter requires using a conversion factor to go from primarily green light to PPFD so the numbers can be (further) off if you're not using the right factor. I put together the attached document when I looked into using a light meter.
 

Attachments

bignugs68

Active Member
Id stop shooting for numbers and start looking for signs of happy and healthy plant; no matter what other growers can manage in veg you need to see how much you can push yours; even if youre on someone elses numbers if your plant cant take it then it cant take it.

Youve also not given any kind of indication of temps and rh in your grow, controlling these and vpd is essential for giving higher intensity. As a general measure; when ever you give more light to a plant which is in good growth youd have to increase temps a little.
Sorry on the temps and Rh. It's usually between 74-83 lately(had a few 70 degree days outside instead of below 50). Rh fluctuates from 28-51%(usually mid 30-mid 40's)

However! Came back from a weekend trip and neighbor told me "man good thing you dipped out for the weekend, power went out for about 8hrs":wall:. He said it was right as he was going to workout which is usually of an evening(I was working out too haha); so i'm hoping it was only like from 4-9pm. Anyways this is what they looked like when I got home: droopy dryish leaves, flimsy branches that were more resistant.
PXL_20240311_203324521.jpg
PXL_20240311_203333328.jpg

Watered each about 26oz(1/5gal) water with: 1/2 teaspoon fish emulsion(5-1-1), 1/2 teaspoon FF Big Bloom, 1/3 teaspoon FF Tiger Bloom. Hoping they perk before their bedtime in 4 hrs.
 

Hollatchaboy

Well-Known Member
Sorry on the temps and Rh. It's usually between 74-83 lately(had a few 70 degree days outside instead of below 50). Rh fluctuates from 28-51%(usually mid 30-mid 40's)

However! Came back from a weekend trip and neighbor told me "man good thing you dipped out for the weekend, power went out for about 8hrs":wall:. He said it was right as he was going to workout which is usually of an evening(I was working out too haha); so i'm hoping it was only like from 4-9pm. Anyways this is what they looked like when I got home: droopy dryish leaves, flimsy branches that were more resistant.
View attachment 5377037
View attachment 5377038

Watered each about 26oz(1/5gal) water with: 1/2 teaspoon fish emulsion(5-1-1), 1/2 teaspoon FF Big Bloom, 1/3 teaspoon FF Tiger Bloom. Hoping they perk before their bedtime in 4 hrs.
They look underwatered in this Pic. Is this how they normally look?
 

bignugs68

Active Member
They look underwatered in this Pic. Is this how they normally look?
No lol, but i did have an overwater/nitrogen(i believe) episode from week 4-5. So last week(week 6) was a recovery week. I'd been watering lightly 8-14 ounces depending, each evening till they started to grow again. They were dry about 2" down, I had light watered Mon-Tues-Thurs, and the soils' were nice n dampish 1/2under surface. I'm surprised they drank this much with a healthy gap of no light/heat(~8hr power outage). Maybe they're finally getting thirsty as they should before flowering lol

This is my grow journal: 2nd grow, 1st Indoors, 4yr old seeds; which has previous pics and such. I'm trying not to take up too much forum real estate with double threading(always update journal, but post concerns additionally in their proper sub-thread)
 

bignugs68

Active Member
Those plants look rough
Looks like a case of the 'too much stuffs'
I can't imagine too many nutes. I've been feeding at like 25-50% what the Big Bloom and Fish Emulson state too. Also if you didn't read, they did go through an over-watering + nitrogen burn weeks late 3 to 4/early week 5. Week six was healthy for them. Fix what i believe was a mag deficiency(yellowing between fan leaf veins) starting and high soil pH. Ahhh sigh, outdoors was so much easier hahaha. probably half the effort of growing this strain indoors.
 

bignugs68

Active Member
Imo, your light is not your problem. Your watering habits are. The medium you're using, isn't helping either.
Yeah watering is definitely taking more precision than outdoors. But these light waterings to balance soil and narrow down issues has finally got them a little more stable. Live and learn. Thank You everyone!!!!
 

Jjgrow420

Well-Known Member
Fish emulsion is ultra alkaline. Living soils need a 20gal container at very minimum to be able to house enough bacteria and fungi etc to be able to regulate pH and eat up all the stuff you're putting in there.
Imo coco/perlite is the easiest most forgiving medium to grow indoors. With a simple a+b veg and a+b flower. Even megacrop or maxiveg/bloom. So much simpler.
 

Reekwind

Member
They need more water and nutrients, not less light.

Indoor growing in soil works best when watering with 25-33% of the total pot size (e.g. 4x 5gallon pots need a total of 5-6.6 gallons of water per watering)
How often you water depends on your plants' stage and your environment.

When using fabric pots it works best if you have the pots in a tray so they can wick up the water that runs through.
You can also just water all the plants at once from the bottom directly in the tray, I've been using this lazy one size fits all approach for years with great success.
 

bignugs68

Active Member
Fish emulsion is ultra alkaline. Living soils need a 20gal container at very minimum to be able to house enough bacteria and fungi etc to be able to regulate pH and eat up all the stuff you're putting in there.
Imo coco/perlite is the easiest most forgiving medium to grow indoors. With a simple a+b veg and a+b flower. Even megacrop or maxiveg/bloom. So much simpler.
eh not quite my fellow growmie, it is acidic based.

Alaska Fish Fertilizer 5-1-1
Safety Data Sheet
05/11/2020 EN (English US) 3/6

Physical state : Liquid
Appearance : Brown liquid
Color : Brown
Odor : Strong fish
Odor threshold : No data available
pH : 3.6 – 3.8
Melting point : Not applicable
Freezing point : 32 °C (89.6 °F)
Boiling point : >100 °C (>212 °F)

As for my grow medium...yeah lol it will definitely be better next grow lol. Actually getting coco coir, straining it of its tiny fibers. From what I've read coco can drain/dry quickly, so for my schedule of being gone 2-3 days at a time I felt a a 2/3rds coco and 1/3rd soil will be best. Jiffy seed starter+ epsoma organic soil was just the cheapest quick organic route lol.
 

Hollatchaboy

Well-Known Member
eh not quite my fellow growmie, it is acidic based.

Alaska Fish Fertilizer 5-1-1
Safety Data Sheet
05/11/2020 EN (English US) 3/6

Physical state : Liquid
Appearance : Brown liquid
Color : Brown
Odor : Strong fish
Odor threshold : No data available
pH : 3.6 – 3.8
Melting point : Not applicable
Freezing point : 32 °C (89.6 °F)
Boiling point : >100 °C (>212 °F)

As for my grow medium...yeah lol it will definitely be better next grow lol. Actually getting coco coir, straining it of its tiny fibers. From what I've read coco can drain/dry quickly, so for my schedule of being gone 2-3 days at a time I felt a a 2/3rds coco and 1/3rd soil will be best. Jiffy seed starter+ epsoma organic soil was just the cheapest quick organic route lol.
Just do soil then. Once you get a few indoor grows under your belt, then experiment with mixtures.

You could autowater coco. That's what I do. My schedule doesn't allow for multiple waterings daily.
 

Lou66

Well-Known Member
I can make that same argument and it's a valid argument as long as I limit the problem I'm trying to solve.
Can you? Because with your argument (having a kinda reliable measurement) you would need to know a setpoint that is to be achieved for optimal growth. And look at the situation of most people here: the desire is to invest as little as possible. With lack of capital also comes a suboptimal growing environment: VPD is off, boutique nutrients (or otherwise not known what is in them, even something like jacks only lists minimal content), multiple cultivars in the same tent etc. It is just not something that can be precisely controlled or where knowledge can be gathered as it changes too much with each cycle.
On the other hand: what can I learn if someone tells me their ideal conditions? The other day I listened to a podcast where the plants where lit with a PPFD of 700 in a commercial facility. It's kinda low but they got their best results there. But why not higher? The load bearing capacity of their ceiling was limiting, nothing related to the plants. These little details are important and make transferring settings difficult. Better look at the plants and go from there.

Regarding the app. Your argument is valid but only to a point. You say you have an iphone and that is the worst example. Iphones come with limited variation. Few models, highly streamlined mass production, premium prices. That's where the consistency between batches is high enough that the hardware can get a rough but good calibration. For the 10000 android models that is not the case.
But do you think the UNI T meter is deficient of this problem? They are competing on price. That means cheap components (maybe even different sensors for each production campaign?). Additionally you need to have a conversion factor. Where does it come from? If you do it yourself then you own a calibrated meter and dont need the cheapos. If you rely on someone else, how can you be confident that they know how to do to proper metrology?

After all this: I don't see any advantage of the uni T meter over photone. It's both flawed but consistent enough to use it.
 

Rennpappe

Active Member
a PPFD of 700 [...] they got their best results there
Well, we don't know because they never tried to go higher.

I'm kind of happy with Photone. It's all I have.
I'm happier with my Hanna pH meter because it can be calibrated.
 

Jjgrow420

Well-Known Member
eh not quite my fellow growmie, it is acidic based.

Alaska Fish Fertilizer 5-1-1
Safety Data Sheet
05/11/2020 EN (English US) 3/6

Physical state : Liquid
Appearance : Brown liquid
Color : Brown
Odor : Strong fish
Odor threshold : No data available
pH : 3.6 – 3.8
Melting point : Not applicable
Freezing point : 32 °C (89.6 °F)
Boiling point : >100 °C (>212 °F)

As for my grow medium...yeah lol it will definitely be better next grow lol. Actually getting coco coir, straining it of its tiny fibers. From what I've read coco can drain/dry quickly, so for my schedule of being gone 2-3 days at a time I felt a a 2/3rds coco and 1/3rd soil will be best. Jiffy seed starter+ epsoma organic soil was just the cheapest quick organic route lol.
You're using fish fertilizer not fish emulsion. Big difference.
That's the cheap Walmart muskie fertilizer. That stuff is best used outdoors imo. Too many issues in small pots. It's way too high in nitrogen and is best used diluted by a lot.
 

Jjgrow420

Well-Known Member
Just do soil then. Once you get a few indoor grows under your belt, then experiment with mixtures.

You could autowater coco. That's what I do. My schedule doesn't allow for multiple waterings daily.
Automate...... Best thing I've done. Fill the res and that's it. Sometimes I don't even go into the tent for days. Saves me so much time.
Op should look into blumats for soil growing. Top dress and stick a blumat in there with plain water and good to go. No pumps etc. Easy
 

Jjgrow420

Well-Known Member
eh not quite my fellow growmie, it is acidic based.

Alaska Fish Fertilizer 5-1-1
Safety Data Sheet
05/11/2020 EN (English US) 3/6

Physical state : Liquid
Appearance : Brown liquid
Color : Brown
Odor : Strong fish
Odor threshold : No data available
pH : 3.6 – 3.8
Melting point : Not applicable
Freezing point : 32 °C (89.6 °F)
Boiling point : >100 °C (>212 °F)

As for my grow medium...yeah lol it will definitely be better next grow lol. Actually getting coco coir, straining it of its tiny fibers. From what I've read coco can drain/dry quickly, so for my schedule of being gone 2-3 days at a time I felt a a 2/3rds coco and 1/3rd soil will be best. Jiffy seed starter+ epsoma organic soil was just the cheapest quick organic route lol.
Strain it of its fibers...?
Organics are neither cheap nor quick in any regard.
 

DanKiller

Well-Known Member
You definitely don't have light problems lol
Your plants are dying in front of you man..
Your soil mix is so not good, and they show it.
You have deficiency, probably of everything.
Want them coming back to life ? Follow this:
Take them out of the pot, cut 1/3 of the rootzone, plant back in a pre made soil mix that can sustain some growth for a couple of weeks without you adding anything (something like coco/peat/ewc or just simple earth with ewc)
Give only 6.2-6.4 ph water, no nutes.
Put light at 70% or higher (raise height if too hot, no dimm)
Put temps at 29-31c
Put RH to 60-80%
Once you are able to sustain those conditions, you are a grower, if you flactuate, you won't have good grows no matter what light or tent or strains you have.
Growing indoor is done only when you are able to dial in everything in your set up before even planting a seed.
Good luck :)
 
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