ph dropping ???? rep offered

Discussion in 'Hydroponics / Aeroponics' started by bushmang, Nov 6, 2009.

  1.  
    bushmang

    bushmang Active Member

    hello everyone i am having a problem with my water tank. the ph keeps dropping. any ideas?


    im a few days away from flushing and i changed out my water to plain ro water and the ph keeps dropping it was doing it with the nutes as well so i thought to change out the water and its still doing it.
  2.  
    irish farmer

    irish farmer Active Member

    What is your ph at starting out. PH will drop over the period of a week even 24 hrs will show a decrease in ph. If you are that close to finishing just change your water more often.
    bushmang likes this.
  3.  
    Illegal Smile

    Illegal Smile Guest

    I wouldn't worry about it at this point. It might affect nutrient uptake but you are no longer using nutes anyway. Unless it goes below about 5.2 I'd just let it go and flush on schedule.
    bushmang likes this.
  4.  
    bushmang

    bushmang Active Member

    the ph i normaly keep at 5.9 but right now it fluctuates from 6.2 to 5.5 in 1 days worth of time. is root rot in effect right now and will it affect my flush? i will be changing out the water every day so i shouldn't worry right?
  5.  
    fatman7574

    fatman7574 New Member

    That is normal during budding as a plants roots tend to release positive hydrogen ions to balance the charge in the root zone if they have taken up to much ammonia. And as nearly all nutrient formulations have some nitrate as ammonium and often in excess of 15% them the pH problem occurs. It is just another indicator that a plant is self flushing of ammonia so flushing is not necessary. That is why you should have no ammoniun nitrate or ammonium phosphate in you nutrient formulas when possible during budding. they are only beneficail during low lighting conditions or when roots are not highly developed. ie only use them if gowing under other than HID lighting and during sesdling and early vegative states. Plants will use nutrients up until they are harvested if they are available.
  6.  
    bushmang

    bushmang Active Member


    very nice info fatman will definitely keep an eye on the ammonium. btw which nutes have this?
  7.  
    fatman7574

    fatman7574 New Member

    Nearly all the manafacturers have at least a small amount, but the ones with larger amounts that I am aware of are: Hydro Farm, ECO, Peters, Miracle Grow, and to a smaller extent Gen X, AN two part, and GH MaxiBloom and Maxigrow. AN and GH are not high enough to be of much concern but high enough to have a additional causitive effect. Most of their ammonium most likely comes from the use of ammonium phoshate, maybe from amminum nitrate (much less likely) however they do not release their formulation information so that is just my opinion of its probable source. In general the veg formulas typically have the higher ammonium. Never use a formula listed as good for early vegative growth during budding. It is probaly best with premixed formulas to just be prepared to deal with it rather than putting in great efforts to avoid it altogether as nearly all the better formulas will have some ammonium even though it is not added as amonium nitrate. The safest bet if the formulation is known is jsut avoid all preparation that include ammonium nitrate and ammonium phosphate during budding.

    A few formulations that do not contain ammonium as nitrogen are: Genisis, Pure Blend, Techna Flora, Rock Wool Formula, Holland Secret.

    Consider this:

    Consideration of pH is important for hydroponic/aeroponic growers, because the pH of the solution affects the solubility of elements, and their availability to plants. Most probems occur where pH becomes too high, above 7, resulting in firstly iron then calcium forming insoluable salts which precipitate out of solution. As the pH increased above 7, plant uptake of these ions become less efficient, so plants become deficent even if the ion is present in solution. pH therefore has an effect on both nutrient solubility and plant availability for uptake.

    As plants remove some ions from solution, the solution pH drifts, upwards or downwards. If left uncontrolled, typicallythe pH will drift downward (to approx 4.5) for several days after starting seddling growth or clone fertilization(ie new crop), after which the pH will steadily increase (to approx 7 or above). This feature is due to the differential uptake of ions from solution, wih the release of hydrogen (H+) or hydroxyl (OH-) ions from the root system. As positive ions, cations (Ca+, K+, Mg+, etc) are removed from solution, hydrogen ions are released from the plant root system to equalise the ration of anions to cations in the root zone. This lowers the pH of the solution. As the plant commencess active growth anions (NO3 etc) <nitrate> are taken up which increases pH through the release of hydroxyl ions into the solution. Supply nitrogen as ammonia can acceleratte the uptake and utilisation of nitrogen under certain conditions. Uptake of ammonia (ammonium ions) can result in lowering of solution the pH, as plants will release positive hydrogen ions (H+) to balance thehcharge in the roots system.

    This essentailly means that early growth of seedlings and clones under low light conditions (Flourescents, CFC's, window sills) can readily benefit from ammonium and the adverse side effects of a lowering of pH is usually considered acceptable, but it is not consisered acceptable during bi udding as it has a hugely more pronounced effect on the solutions pH during budding when the uptake can be huge in comparsion to the uptake by seedlings and young clones. Budding plants do not need a softer easier way of uptaking nitrogen as they have a fully developed root sytem and enough leaf to insure good tranpiration to assure adequate uptake of solutions.
  8.  
    LOSTCOASTLOCAL

    LOSTCOASTLOCAL Well-Known Member

    That was great man.... I am dealing with a decline right now in my vert aero unit and am using AN Conn as a base with b-52 and Enggy's F1 and Hygrozyme... About 8 days into 12's and ph is dropping..... Could you elaborate on the possible causes of PH drop and can root rot be a cause.... I'm just wondering what makes it go from a steady rise to a steady fall so quickly.... I ph to 5.6 and let it run up through mid 6's before I take it back down, but I don't like when it falls.... ANy ideas for the simple man would be fully appreciated
  9.  
    Woomeister

    Woomeister Well-Known Member

    round of applause for being able to cut'n'paste...:sleep:
  10.  
    fatfarmer34

    fatfarmer34 Well-Known Member

    Hey man hows that fan leaf cloning coming along?
  11.  
    fatman7574

    fatman7574 New Member

    I see no harm in cutting and pasting from something I wrote over 10 years ago.
  12.  
    LOSTCOASTLOCAL

    LOSTCOASTLOCAL Well-Known Member

    Come on Fatman, let's here a little more about possible causes of PH drop for the simple man... This is driving me crazy not knowing why it's dropping... I shouldn't have any root rot, my rez is never over 70, PAALEEEEEASE!
  13.  
    fatman7574

    fatman7574 New Member

    Are you growing in an inert medium, are you using CO2, were you using a chemical or organic fertlizer?
    LOSTCOASTLOCAL likes this.
  14.  
    LOSTCOASTLOCAL

    LOSTCOASTLOCAL Well-Known Member

  15.  
    fatman7574

    fatman7574 New Member

    Wow, talk about a soup. Enggy's F1 is just Fulvic acid. It is one of the acids that come from humus. While it is beneficial for use woith soil grows and orgainic fertilizer it is about worthless wi hen used with chemical fertilizers and especially with aero tubes where there is no media at all. Chelates used with the micro nutrients in chemical hydroponic fertilizers provide the same benefits as the Fulvic acids. Fulvic acids lower thre ph as they are usually just made by acid decomposition of humus. Peat moss for example is a humus. Hygroxyme is made by SIPCO. They are best known for the culture growing of bacteia that converts petroleum to biomass. Those bacteia use large amounts of fertilizers for an energy source. They die almost as fast as they multiply. Their dead biomass uses up significant amounts of oxygen as it is broken dow. That process lowers the pH. When used as normally used for bioremediation of oil soaked soils etc they have to apply large amounts of high pH fertilizers along with nitrogen to feed them and maintain proper condoitions. Prior to the last few government administrations SO IPCO sold their cultured bacteria only for bioremediation,. When EPA quit getting huge sums of monety to dole out for clean ups SIPCO found another market for their cultured bacteria.

    "B-52 provides the most complete spectrum of B vitamins, compounded with co-factors, humic, kelp extracts and other substances that enhance vitamin absorption and make your crops reward you more." None of these things have really been found to be beneficial except with the possible exception of during root development (seedlings and cloning). Buy using this product you are lowering the pH and doubling up on humic acids.

    IngredientsAscophylum Nodosum
    Calcium Nitrate
    Humic Acid (acid digested peat moss)
    Leonardite (coal based humus)
    Magnesium Phosphate
    Potassium Nitrate
    Potassium Phosphate
    Potassium Sulfate
    Vitamin B-1 (Thiamine Hydrochloride)
    Vitamin B-2 (Riboflavin)
    Vitamin B-3 (Niacin)
    Vitamin B-5 (Panthothenic Acid)
    Vitamin B-6 (Pyridoxine)
    Vitamin B-7 (Biotin)
    Vitamin B-9 (Folic Acid)

    AN Connoisseur: "Its co-factors, stimulators, amino acids, bloom nutrients, and potency-boosting components create massive harvests with improved size and quality never before seen in hydroponics agriculture."


    If they would catually admit to the public what is in their Connoisseur I believe you would find it is just a regular two part like Micro and bBoom with the same additions as are in B52, but at a slighlty different concentration so as to be different. As far as the amino acids: Important It has been suggested that use of this product should be terminated prior to a plant going into flowering. http://www.super-grow.biz/Amino.jsp

    Basically just drop everything but the AN Connoisseur as you are just adding more of what is already supplied by the AN Connoisseur, and none of it really helps (but the chemical fertilizers) except with soil grows and seedlings and rooting clones. All that stuff is your pH problem, plus the fact that AN Connoisseur also likely contains ammonium based nitrogen which lowers the pH during budding.
  16.  
    LOSTCOASTLOCAL

    LOSTCOASTLOCAL Well-Known Member

    Ok, if that is an explenation for the simple man, then I guess I need the retard version... I would love to hear you and Earl rap out... I know he uses all the same shit and he is a fuckin guru... and grows in aero tubes, but I think he stays in 4 inch tubes.... appreciate the rocket scientist response though
  17.  
    fatman7574

    fatman7574 New Member

    I am a bit over educated but I really try to make what I write understandable. Just reading the last paragraph of most replies I write is easiest as I usually sum up in short with a final paragraph or sentence.
  18.  
    LOSTCOASTLOCAL

    LOSTCOASTLOCAL Well-Known Member

    Trust that I fully respect what you have said, I have repped two people on here in 2 years and you were the 2nd... I take that back, third... I repped FDD too.... let me ask you this... what today is believed to be the top Aeroponic or Hydroponic bloom fertilizer... I can send pics of my garden and I think you would say it looks kinda healthy, but I have had this issue with Conni for my last 3 harvests and you have given me the most insight, I just want the best... Love your opinion
  19.  
    fatman7574

    fatman7574 New Member

    Really the two part GH or AN are very good formulations for a soil less media, ie aero. Just about all the standard two part formulas by the major manafacturers are not that much different from each other. There main differences is mainly the concentrations not the Ratio of one fertilzer to another and that is what determines the formulation. The concentration in relation to the analysis determines the value based upon the actual amount of fertiler by weight you are buying. Ie the formulation 5-5-5-5 is the same as 20-20-20-20 as the ratios are the same. The concentration of one is 4 times the oncentration of the other is all. That means if both are sold in a bottle saying a x100 concentration you would be able to make 4 times the mixed nutrient of the same EC/ppm with the 20-20-20-20 anlyis as the 5-5-5-5 but they would be the same formulations and they would produce the same results.

    Nutrients like all products sold principally to pot growes, are grossly over priced. When you get into organic formulations and organic supplements I really do not know of any exceptional formulations for aero or soil media grows. Organic formulations perfprmance varies greatly depending upon medias (amount of humus present, actual mineral composituion etc) , temps, aeration, and such to a much greater extent than with chemical fertilizers used in a media where oxygen levels are always high.

    Nutrient manfacturers like pot growers to be like mushrooms. Just leave them in the dark and feed them bull shit. The less truly informed you are the greater amount of money they can bilk off you. I think they truly follow the old addage, Dazzle them y with your brillance or baffle them with your bull shit. The problem is their brillance is only in marketing/bilking.

    Definition of Bilk: To defraud, cheat, or swindle: made millions bilking wealthy clients on art sales.

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