Organics dead? Is all natural the way to go?

Hi, I was wanting some people's opinion (Your opinion!) on the current day state of organics. I have seen first hand how bureaucracy dictates what is considered organic and what is not (State to state, or country to country).

After a few years "in the field" it occurred to me that being organic certified was a total jip. Upon trying to become organic certified, I realized that it would cost me an extra $2500 a month, which I would have to spend for 3-5 years before I could become certified. This extra cost was completely unsustainable. What cost so much you ask? Well for starters if my tractor left the garden area, it would have to be striped of equipment and pressure washed with a bleach solution (I refuse to use bleach inside my garden, or outside it, near it). The other costs would be incurred from similar maintenance with toxic solutions on my hand tools.

There is also the cost of continuous testing PRIOR to getting your certification! (6months-5 years).


As a local farmer concerned with my product, I decided that All natural is the way to go, since "Organic" is more of a state, or country's definition. Only using all natural sources for my compost (The lifeline of any outdoor garden) I found that my practices were more stringent than that of the states as far as "All natural" is concerned (No, I didnt wash my tractor with bleach 3 times a week).

What I am getting at, is that "Organic" is sometimes less natural, than "All natural", but may sell for much much more, only because of the added taxes.

What does this community think? Are you "Organic" or "All natural" ? Is the organic way dieing off slowly?

The organic way is not dying! I support the movement! I support local economy! If you know your farmer and he is telling you it`s all organic, who cares about the damn certification!!

"Organic" is a horseshit term used by the government to find new ways to steal our money. I thought the term started as a marketing tool, until the GOV scooped it up- by over regulating what it means. its another excuse for the government to step into your life and tell you what to do. and charge you for it. synthetic fertilizers are technically organic... in the way that the plant needs these nutrients in that form, non synthetic or "Organic" fertilizers need to be broken down by microbes into a synthetic form so that the plany may take it up. I dont see much of a difference. And now the government has gone so far as totell you how often to clean your tools and tractors - how does that make anything organic? with bleach none the less. Chalk it up to another corporate Hypocracy/Hypocrisy.

Furthermore - Science has proven that there is no incease in the nutritional value of "Organic" produce versus produce grown with conventional methods. YOUR WASTING YOUR MONEY.

.....Sustainable growing practices concern me much more

Too add one point..... More fuel is used in the transportation of organic matter than is used in the manufacturing of synthetic fertilizers.

like I say, eat local as much as you can, not much fossil fuel are used when all the onions,beets ... that I will eat this winter were grown 10 km away from where I live.. and one good reason why I support the organic movement ( I avoid any products from big companies that are just doing it because it`s trendy (nestle...) is that you know your food has not been genetically modified... most may not care but we are fuking things up big time playing with mother nature like that. Same with fkin farmed fish! Thats all!

I gotta say. so far I am very happy with the responses!!! I really like the comment

If you know your farmer and he is telling you it`s all organic, who cares about the damn certification!!

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This really strikes home with me, since I have never been certified organic, but I make all my farming practices open to the customers for them to see (and help if they want!)

Also the comment

synthetic fertilizers are technically organic... in the way that the plant needs these nutrients in that form, non synthetic or "Organic" fertilizers need to be broken down by microbes into a synthetic form so that the plany may take it up.

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Because after a little home work, you realize that all organic say, soil, is really just a slow process of Micro-organisms breaking the organic molecules down, into inorganic molecules.

So, are organics dead? Are we onto all natural now?

Certification is a bureaucratic racket. I work on organic farms. The loopholes are ridiculous too, two years ago one of my farmers got the OK to plant thiram coated corn because no organic certified/uncoated seeds were available at the time. He's an organic certified farm.

As for bleach, dude, it's a great disinfecting substance for organic farms. edit: I've ruined many-a pair of pants

Interesting claims buttrick, not saying they are all bullshit but do you have anything of substance to back it all up? I mean obviously if you're a farm with livestock and such you should have plenty of organic matter on hand.

I don't give two shits about commercialization\regulation of organic agriculture (maybe I should), or nit-picking away at the term "organic" or what is technically "organic"... it didn't take long for me to realize that gardening with the soil food web, indoors and out, both produced a better product and was more sustainable. I'll have a lot less work to do in my garden next spring considering the soil is now teaming with earthworms, bacteria, archaea, fungi and beneficial insects. I have finished home-made compost that will be ready to spread once the weather warms up, and a cold compost pile to let over-winter and decay for use at the end of spring. Nothing to till. Less weeds to pull. Nothing goes on my garden except compost and mulch, a little bit of Espoma all natural plant food and the occasional aerated tea spray.

I've never had more compliments as to the deliciousness of my cherry and brandy-wine tomatoes, while the ones a the grocer are more often than not tasteless... wtf is that about?

Nullis said:

it didn't take long for me to realize that gardening with the soil food web, indoors and out, both produced a better product and was more sustainable.

I've never had more compliments as to the deliciousness of my cherry and brandy-wine tomatoes, while the ones a the grocer are more often than not tasteless... wtf is that about?

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"the soil food web"....nuff said, for those of you that have no idea what that means...get a copy of Teaming with Microbes.

Grocery Store tomatoes are dog shit, the tomatoes producers pick them on the greener side of ripeness and let them finish ripping up on the way to their destination. It’s kind of like harvesting bud in the 5th week of flowering and expecting a pleasant experience..lol

When I go to my farmers market if you were to tell me that your all natural ,explain yourself , and are willing to give me a tour of your place, and finally show me what your using . I would buy from you 100% of the time. I also live in a state where its a big process to get certified also. I know someone that had to do it just as long in the hopes he one day could grow in his greenhouses legal organic buds. Being a farmer won't make u rich , u think they would help encourage the action by being much more cheaper about it. Now a days wether what u do is right or wrong, good for the enviroment or not, they just want your money.

...no chemicals in the garden but plenty of toxic stuff to clean your tools?

ehh...loool.

what exactly is the use of a government?

none comes to mind.

Tamorin said:

When I go to my farmers market if you were to tell me that your all natural ,explain yourself , and are willing to give me a tour of your place, and finally show me what your using . I would buy from you 100% of the time. I also live in a state where its a big process to get certified also. I know someone that had to do it just as long in the hopes he one day could grow in his greenhouses legal organic buds. Being a farmer won't make u rich , u think they would help encourage the action by being much more cheaper about it. Now a days wether what u do is right or wrong, good for the enviroment or not, they just want your money.

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And when you gotta do this for every customer who'll buy 16 dollars worth of your 300,000$ yearly costs, you notice it's not all it's cracked up to be.

The term "Organic" is thrown around to the point of being meaningless, I agree. I'd still rather eat an organic product than a non-O. The thought that synthetic ferts derived from oil are somehow also organic really tells us how foolishly the word is used. And when people claim chemicals are the same as organics, humus, EWC, well hat's just plain ignorant. I envision these bobblehead puppets talking with Monsanto's hand up their ass.

if ya used shit and piss for fertilizer and relied on natural methods to keep bugs away (are quite a few actually and not all that silly)

then ya are "organic"

natural is a much better word to use for something like that.

buttrick said:

"Organic" is a horseshit term used by the government to find new ways to steal our money. I thought the term started as a marketing tool, until the GOV scooped it up- by over regulating what it means. its another excuse for the government to step into your life and tell you what to do. and charge you for it. synthetic fertilizers are technically organic... in the way that the plant needs these nutrients in that form, non synthetic or "Organic" fertilizers need to be broken down by microbes into a synthetic form so that the plany may take it up. I dont see much of a difference. And now the government has gone so far as totell you how often to clean your tools and tractors - how does that make anything organic? with bleach none the less. Chalk it up to another corporate Hypocracy/Hypocrisy.

Furthermore - Science has proven that there is no incease in the nutritional value of "Organic" produce versus produce grown with conventional methods. YOUR WASTING YOUR MONEY.

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What complete and unadulterated BULLSHIT

Yeah, buttrick chose a good handle for himself. At the very least he's confusing a couple quite dis-similar words. Plants certainly don't need nutrients 'in synthetic form'... they take up nutrients as ions. They may be called 'inorganic ions'; but they are not 'synthetic ions'. That wouldn't make any sense...considering plant systems predate man-made laboratories. The question is then where do these ions come from, in nature, and the answer is the soil food web. Microbes are the foundation of the soil food web (bacteria, fungi, protozoa, nematodes). The 'soil' part of that is also pretty fucking important, since it has to be able to support such life. You help build up the foundation with organic matter.

You don't dump fertilizer on an old growth forest, and yet forests sustain massive amounts of growth with no end in site. If it wasn't for us (humans), virtually all of the USA would be lush, green, beautiful forest. It would grow on forever without our interference; without any man ever having to pour one ounce of chemical salts upon it. If you walk through a forest and examine the floor carefully you'll gather some hints as to what is actually going on there. You'll see the ground covered in litter; fallen leaves and twigs and other organic wastes that the arthropods are shredding up. Dig into it a bit and you'll see fuzzy white mycelium growing upon the moist litter nearest the ground, breaking it all down. Chances are beneath the litter is rich, black, casting-rich soil. These are the more obvious things you'll be able to witness with a naked eye; the rest of the party is invisible to us without an electron microscope

Where I am there are old pinus and tsuga forests straight on bedrock. If you jump up and down, it's springy. The "soil" is nothing but bedrock and pine needle mulch. Yet the trees are over 100ft tall, growing on rock.

If one looks around a supermarket they will notice the phrase 'all natural' has been co-opted by coventional ag. A term like bio-logical may be more appropriate.

I agree. With respect to weed, when I think organic, I think of a well built soil with compost and EWC. I do not at all think of bottled ferts. Organic is a perfectly good word that became a tainted and commercialized marketing word. I wish more people would simply grow natural soil, whether we're talking about weed or corn. Fuck Monsanto