How long did you measure the droop for? Hrs?
...
),
@PSUAGRO.
If Supra measured the difference in temp droop between similar COBs with and without lenses over a continuous amount of time, say 18 hours per day, over a week, then that difference of droop over time could be used to determine whether or not your claim holds true (for this case).
Stardust, you beat me to the punch regarding Green's horrific typing! So appalling!
What would you say/guess the average life of a given COB (Vero or 3070) would be without taking into account the various factors that determine its life cycle? I'm under the impression that it's five years or more.1) Silicone has a low value of thermal conductivity .
2) Vf changes ,could be used as a "guide" to monitor Tj changes.
3) Diodes are being cooled far more efficiently by a heatsink ,than LES is .
4)So, Vf changes can not be used to monitor the LES temperature .
5)What Supra did monitor is the condition of the diodes not the LES .
6) A good cooling system might/ will manage to keep the Tj in "nominal" range ,in a COB bearing such a thick glass lens .
7) But ....That is merely the bottom piece of bread of the heatburger ..
8 )Still,the top bread can be volcano hot ,frying the phosphor particles into the LES.
9) So,good active cooling might save the day for the diodes ...
10) Still phosphor particles are doomed to premature degradation ,since the glass lens might be having a greater temperature than Tc or even Tj ,while being so close to the LES .
....And ....
11) Measuring light emitted by PC LEDS/COBs ,I'm afraid it can only be done utilising an integrating sphere ,
especially designed for that purpose .At least if accuracy is what is wanted .
An ordinary Lux meter ,is out of question for that purpose
(especially the ones with omni-directional sensors ==> most of Lux meters ).
It only can give a "general idea" ,but can't be used for precise measurements ,within different angles and distances.
Cheers.
Riding the same wave ...
Yes.At last someone has noticed that .
Exactly ,is not PPFD or distance from plants that matters that much in final yields ,as total amount of PPF.
Same with spectrum.
The possible DIRECT yield increasement originating from a "magical" spectrum compared to the
"all-around spectra " of " P.C.L.E.D.3K80Ra " ,
is rather detrimental compared to the also DIRECT yield increasement originating from a higher PPF than in previous case ,of the good ol' P.C.L.E.D.3K80Ra.
The effects of spectrum ,PPFD and distance of light source from plants ,seem to affect the mj plant
(a tough ,highly able to "fit" under diverse environments ,always light -hungry wild weed ..
And for sure being the only weed ,so extensively .cultivated,all around the Eartrh !
in rather indirect ways ...
For example ,increasing or decreasing the internodal distance ,can be achieved by altering the spectrum ( R:FR =photomorpogenesis ) or altering the distance of light source(s) from top leaf canopy ( ? ) ,or by both .
( In a lesser degree of control ,the same thing can be achieved by altering the ambient temperature and/or the macro-micro-trace elements ratio and concentration .)
And yes ,plenty of researches around ,underlining the importance of diffused light and the yield difference vs "direct and/or concentrated light " .
PPFD is there to remind us ,that there are limits in the whole story ...
Having more than ~1500 umol/sec / sqr m ,it can be counter-productive .
And GG ..
Brother ,I really envy you now...
First time ,I'm noticing you doing spelling mistakes ...
Dude,that weed of yours ,has to be a "poison" * ....
( *A term amongst potheads ,here in Hellas , being used to describe an exceptionally potent mj )
Know the term "speechless" ...
What about the new term ,that GG is establishing ? .
"Shit ,bro ! The other day I dropped by GG's place and we had some tokes of his LED herb ..
Pure poison I'm tellin ya ,I was left keyboardless ,for hours ! .
Bro ,I could not type a single word in the right way .,..
So F@(kin stoned/high (<=choose yours favourite THC/CBD ratio ) I was ,I'm tellin' ya ! "
Oh ! ... I should not forget ..
Last but not least ...
" A silicone LES can be in contact with a silicone lens ... "
http://www.khatod.com/Khatod/view_products?PL1825SR_Ultra_Clear_Silicone_Lenses_for_CREE_XLAMP_LEDs,3762,2
Cheers.
Ohh,I 've a terrible flu ..
Vero series 1 did not have the Vero 29 amongst the rest of line ..
I had these strange feelings...rumbling deep down inside...about the Cree "game" and the almost-too-easy-availability of the entire Vero series at an entry level cost. Efficiency aside, i know my Vero 18 panels are gonna rock at a cost that didn't break the bank. You summed it up perfectly...well said.Ohh,I 've a terrible flu ..
The one that already killed 54 people ,here ..
( Never have imagined that a flu would kill me ,but the time is 05:00 am and that is the third night going sleepless ..Strong virus ..But I'm stronger ...I hope ..)
Anyway ...
Why I prefer Vero 29 over the CXA-CXB 3590 ?
(As a DIYer ...)
For few reasons ...
1) CXA-CXBs need array holders ,with the latter being difficult to trace ,and with Newark having a ridiculous
shipping fees policy ,CXA-CXB array holders are a "NO-NO" for importing in EU.
( In fact ,buying anything from Newark ,is pure stealing .Prices seem low ,until you get to pay the shipping fees.
I will never buy anything again from Newark and I discourage everyone who's willing to buy from tthem .)
2) Vero 29 has an aluminium substrate instead of a ceramic one,like on the CXA/B series.
Far better thermal conductivity ,not prone to chipping -cracking .
3) This power binning policy of Cree ,starts to get on my nerves.Power binning LEDs/CObs these days ,
personally makes me feel awkward enough ..A weird " racism " between the same product ,of the same company .
And that "racism" is fed by the company itself .Someone has to tell CREE that the year is 2015 and not 2010.
Things are moving on .Can't spend time ,money and energy to trace the appropriate power bin ..
(But it's a good way to hold the possible customers by the balls ,I';ve to agree on that one ...
And sell the top bins ,at higher prices ,of course ).Vero 29 ,have not power bins ,simply because they use a different
tech (GaOnSi ) that allows for more homogeneous diode manufacturing ,regarding power.
Silicone Carbide tech of Cree ,either won't allow for such power homogeneity or deliberately some diodes are "made" better than others .Modern LED wafer tech ,allows much more power output homogeneity of the diodes ,at the same wafer ,than 5 years ago.)
4) Vero 29ers are easier to find ,cheaper to obtain .Period.That makes a huge difference in case of
possible COB replacement.(Especially when a certain number of COBs are used ).
5) Taking into account Haitz's Law ,it is not of so high importance the efficiency alone .
Why ?
Because "tomorrow" you 'll have a more efficient replacement ..
Vero 1.2 =>Vero 2=> Vero 3=> and so on ...
Same as CXA =>CXB =>CXC =>and so on ...
So ,the best COB for me is the one that is offering high efficiency ,high versatility ,high durability , needing less additional parts,tracing it being easy and has a low price ,since in one ,two or three years ,it could be replaced with a newer version of the same COB .Trying to find a top bin of the CXA/B series to buy ,makes me feel( and act ) like an obsessed stamp collector.
Fuq that $hit ,I don't like it ,I won't play Cree's game ...
I'm the customer ,I'm buying ,I'm always right , I'm supposed to hold a company by the balls .
Not the company holding mine ...
Cheers.
I'm afraid is not easy to answer the first question...
I believe I described this "homogeneous" binning, for the Vero, as a possibility on one of the other popular threads. Fuck, maybe it was this very thread (I hate backtracking and flipping through pages).3) This power binning policy of Cree ,starts to get on my nerves.Power binning LEDs/CObs these days ,
personally makes me feel awkward enough ..A weird " racism " between the same product ,of the same company .
And that "racism" is fed by the company itself .Someone has to tell CREE that the year is 2015 and not 2010.
Things are moving on .Can't spend time ,money and energy to trace the appropriate power bin ..
(But it's a good way to hold the possible customers by the balls ,I';ve to agree on that one ...
And sell the top bins ,at higher prices ,of course ).Vero 29 ,have not power bins ,simply because they use a different
tech (GaOnSi ) that allows for more homogeneous diode manufacturing ,regarding power.
Silicone Carbide tech of Cree ,either won't allow for such power homogeneity or deliberately some diodes are "made" better than others .Modern LED wafer tech ,allows much more power output homogeneity of the diodes ,at the same wafer ,than 5 years ago.)
LOL a stamp collector! I forgot that they even exist (or existed??). I'm right there with you, sharing and agreeing 100% of your views (salute).So ,the best COB for me is the one that is offering high efficiency ,high versatility ,high durability , needing less additional parts,tracing it being easy and has a low price ,since in one ,two or three years ,it could be replaced with a newer version of the same COB .Trying to find a top bin of the CXA/B series to buy ,makes me feel( and act ) like an obsessed stamp collector.
Fuq that $hit ,I don't like it ,I won't play Cree's game ...
I'm the customer ,I'm buying ,I'm always right , I'm supposed to hold a company by the balls .
Not the company holding mine ...
Cheers.
I appreciate your guesses, as the questions were sort of up in the air ones.I'm afraid is not easy to answer the first question...
More or less ,say ~75.000 hours , when Tj is kept under 50°C.
(LM 70 )
The second one is easy ,thought ...
Less than 10.000 hours .
(LM ...0 ! )
the third one ...
Say I have a 1000cc bike...
I'm tuning it up to a max speed of 350 km/h ..
And yes it makes a full round in Daytona .
And then engine melts down ...
After one round .
Is it worthy ?
Depends ...
On how wealthy I'm supposed to be ..
or ..in other words ...
On the initial cost of the 1000cc bike ..
If it was cheap enough ,then yes ,burn baby ,burn ,by all means ..
If it was not cheap ....Well ..I would like to last more than one round ,for sure ..
Cheers.
Well ,Cree chooses to report only minimum Lum Flux values,at the spec sheets.I believe I described this "homogeneous" binning, for the Vero, as a possibility on one of the other popular threads. Fuck, maybe it was this very thread (I hate backtracking and flipping through pages).
So it sounds like Supra's car analogy doesn't stack up in this case. In short, if I were to buy 20x Vero 18s and test them, they would, for the most part, show similar performance. Right or? I think Supra's claim was that there are typical and minimal values, listed on the data sheets that reinforce his logic.
LOL a stamp collector! I forgot that they even exist (or existed??). I'm right there with you, sharing and agreeing 100% of your views (salute).
I hope you get to feeling better, Sailor, as you got plenty more COB crafting left in ya!
I may have failed to mention this but the glass lens is not touching the LES, there is a significant air space and the air is literally blowing through that space. There is no undue danger to the LES or phosphor. The Tj is no more than 55C in this case but these COBs can be run much much hotter, in which case the LES would also be much much hotter. So with a Tj of 55C, there is no possible way the COB lifetime is being shortened by the lens, even if there were no airflow. There will be no effect on lumen maintenance. It would likely outlast us.1) Silicone has a low value of thermal conductivity .
2) Vf changes ,could be used as a "guide" to monitor Tj changes.
3) Diodes are being cooled far more efficiently by a heatsink ,than LES is .
4)So, Vf changes can not be used to monitor the LES temperature .
5)What Supra did monitor is the condition of the diodes not the LES .
6) A good cooling system might/ will manage to keep the Tj in "nominal" range ,in a COB bearing such a thick glass lens .
7) But ....That is merely the bottom piece of bread of the heatburger ..
8 )Still,the top bread can be volcano hot ,frying the phosphor particles into the LES.
9) So,good active cooling might save the day for the diodes ...
10) Still phosphor particles are doomed to premature degradation ,since the glass lens might be having a greater temperature than Tc or even Tj ,while being so close to the LES .
....And ....
11) Measuring light emitted by PC LEDS/COBs ,I'm afraid it can only be done utilising an integrating sphere ,
especially designed for that purpose .At least if accuracy is what is wanted .
An ordinary Lux meter ,is out of question for that purpose
(especially the ones with omni-directional sensors ==> most of Lux meters ).
It only can give a "general idea" ,but can't be used for precise measurements ,within different angles and distances.
Cheers.
You are right on. Most lumen maintenance reports focus on Tj85C and they report LM80. I am interested LM99 and LM95 data at Tj40-60C (is there such a thing LOL). Grow lamps that are sufficiently cooled experience almost no lumen depreciation whatsoever. Maybe even lumen appreciation.
The legit direct suppliers only charge $1 more for the higher bins. Cree is not the one marking them up and "getting us by the balls". They are just busy bringing an awesome product to market
Bridgelux is just trying to make thing seem simpler but I prefer to know what I am buying as much as possible.
Then most likely the Vero top bins have been stripped out at some point.
There are so many question like, is the Vero2 3k warmer than the Cree 3K. What is the LER of Vero3K. Is Cree coming in at the "minimum" or somewhere between min and max.
