JacFlasche
Member
If anyone knows of a truly viable alternative to Dutch Masters Hydro nutes, which are filtered at 5 microns and haven't yet clogged one of twenty four tefen fogging heads -- please share your experience.
Nutes for HPA
- Thread starter JacFlasche
- Start date
Im a big fan of Jacks 321 Hydro. Nothing organic in it and it dissolves all the way. At the 0.2 to 0.8 EC levels I run, the rez looks perfectly clear.
Of course, you are still going to have to filter based on the orofice sizes you are running. I run AA aero and the nozzles Im using now have relatively large orofices compared to my old HPA nozzles - BUT - there is still the occational bug or piece of crap that seems to get into the rez some how, so filtering is always needed.
If you are running anything organic, that crap just builds up.
Of course, you are still going to have to filter based on the orofice sizes you are running. I run AA aero and the nozzles Im using now have relatively large orofices compared to my old HPA nozzles - BUT - there is still the occational bug or piece of crap that seems to get into the rez some how, so filtering is always needed.
If you are running anything organic, that crap just builds up.
JacFlasche
Member
I am hoping to move to AA in the future. Soon as I can find a truly silent compressor at a good price. Are you using a Spray Systems Air jet fogger nozzle by any chance? https://www.spray.com/-/media/dam/sales-materials/a/airjet-fogger-c76-section-e.pdf
I was thinking it would be a good one. I am also wondering what would be the optimum shape and size chamber to use it in. I think I may consult with them on this, there most be a shape and size chamber that is best.
As far as compressors, Im using a small California AirTools model 1P1060S.
Its one of the smallest ones they have, and I have been very happy with the noise level. Ive only had it ayear, but its running fine. It runs for about 2 minutes every 90 minutes in my system, and its been doing that pretty much 24/7 for that year. Its on sale for a good price at the moment. I paid $130 or so when I bought mine.
BUT
EVERYTHING depends on the size of your growing space and how its configured. You need to think about a bunch of variables. How many plants do you want to grow? Will the root chamber be inside or outside of the growing space? Either way, how are you going to keep it cool? How much vertical space will the root chamber have? The more the better. You really need to run DTW, so drainage or a catch basin, and how to empty it is important.
You need to look at all those things so you can come up with a root chamber size. You dont want to over crowd the space, and I have found it better not to have plants too close to the side walls. Once you have a size, and shape, then you can start looking at liquid flow rates, and how many nozzles you will need and where to put them.
I am growing in a small tent that is less than 8 sq ft. My root chamber is aprox 55 gallons and is 24" diameter cylinder x 29" tall. My root chamber is completely outside of the growing space under the work bench my tent sits on, so it is much easier to keep cool than one that is inside a tent or grow room. Its made from 2ea 30 gallon fabric growing pots stitched together with hot glue to get that size. The fabric of course gets wet from the mist, but that water evaporates and keeps the chamber cool. My root chamber runs an average of 7 to 10 deg F lower than room temp. I actually have to heat it almost all the time to keep it up around 70F. If it was inside the tent it would be running closer to 80F, which is way too hot.
Ive only tried one set of Spraying Systems nozzles (SU2) and they did not work well for me at all. They are siphon type nozzles as opposed to pressure fed nozzles. The difference is critical as far as system setup. More on that later.
The problem with these SU2 for me is the throw distance, narrow cone angle, and force of the mist was all just too much for my small chamber. With a 20 deg cone angle, and a throw distance of 10-15 feet, they kept the roots too wet for fuzzy hairs to develop. They would probably work fine in a much larger chamber.
I suspect those fog nozzles you linked will have a similar issue. They are designed to fill a large open space, and have a long throw distance. They also operate at relatively hi air and water pressures, so the mist will be coming out of the nozzles with a lot of force. You dont want to be blasting the roots with a pressure washer
Those nozzles also have a pretty small average droplet size, but there is room for adjustment by varying the air/water pressure. For any given nozzle, you can adjust the droplet size by changing the air to liquid mass ratio - within limits. Note that is a mass ratio not a pressure ratio, so you need to know the flow rates for each.
To me, the biggest downside to those nozzles - or any pressure fed nozzles - is that your rez needs to be pressurized. That really limits you. You cant easily see into or stirr or check, or clean, or drain or fill a pressurized rez. The pressure chamber will be more $$, but it also forces you to spend more on extra regulators, and solenoids.
The other big downside to a pressurized rez is PH control. At low pressures, this isnt a big deal, but as you increase the atmospheric pressure on water, the dissolved oxygen and C02 levels increase. Extra dissolved O2 is good, but extra dissolved C02 will drive the PH down. C02 in solution is in the form of carbonic acid. More acid = lower PH. So you might mix up your rez solution at a PH of 5.8, but when you pressurize it, it will go down. How far is hard to tell because you cant easily measure it in a pressurize rez.
When I was running HPA with accumulator tank pressures in the 120-130 PSI range, I had to be very careful to get ALL the air out of the tank, and lines. If I didnt, I got really wild PH swings. When I drained water out, it would actually fizz from the C02 leaving the solution due to the lower pressure.
Those nozzles you linked run a lower pressures, but the same chemistry applies.
Anyway, for those reasons, Im only using siphon feed nozzles. YMMV
Im having great results with Delavan 30609-8 siphon fed nozzles. Plus, they are dirt cheap compared to Spraying Systems nozzles at $25 ea. My main issues have been nozzle placement. The roots keep trying to over grow and swallow the nozzles, and I have had trouble getting good, even coverage on all sides of each plants roots. Im now using 3ea nozzles shooting up from the bottom.
These pics are from my last couple of grows with the delavan nozzles in various configurations. Im in the middle of redoing it all with three nozzles and playing with different siphon heights.
Its one of the smallest ones they have, and I have been very happy with the noise level. Ive only had it ayear, but its running fine. It runs for about 2 minutes every 90 minutes in my system, and its been doing that pretty much 24/7 for that year. Its on sale for a good price at the moment. I paid $130 or so when I bought mine.
BUT
EVERYTHING depends on the size of your growing space and how its configured. You need to think about a bunch of variables. How many plants do you want to grow? Will the root chamber be inside or outside of the growing space? Either way, how are you going to keep it cool? How much vertical space will the root chamber have? The more the better. You really need to run DTW, so drainage or a catch basin, and how to empty it is important.
You need to look at all those things so you can come up with a root chamber size. You dont want to over crowd the space, and I have found it better not to have plants too close to the side walls. Once you have a size, and shape, then you can start looking at liquid flow rates, and how many nozzles you will need and where to put them.
I am growing in a small tent that is less than 8 sq ft. My root chamber is aprox 55 gallons and is 24" diameter cylinder x 29" tall. My root chamber is completely outside of the growing space under the work bench my tent sits on, so it is much easier to keep cool than one that is inside a tent or grow room. Its made from 2ea 30 gallon fabric growing pots stitched together with hot glue to get that size. The fabric of course gets wet from the mist, but that water evaporates and keeps the chamber cool. My root chamber runs an average of 7 to 10 deg F lower than room temp. I actually have to heat it almost all the time to keep it up around 70F. If it was inside the tent it would be running closer to 80F, which is way too hot.
Ive only tried one set of Spraying Systems nozzles (SU2) and they did not work well for me at all. They are siphon type nozzles as opposed to pressure fed nozzles. The difference is critical as far as system setup. More on that later.
The problem with these SU2 for me is the throw distance, narrow cone angle, and force of the mist was all just too much for my small chamber. With a 20 deg cone angle, and a throw distance of 10-15 feet, they kept the roots too wet for fuzzy hairs to develop. They would probably work fine in a much larger chamber.
I suspect those fog nozzles you linked will have a similar issue. They are designed to fill a large open space, and have a long throw distance. They also operate at relatively hi air and water pressures, so the mist will be coming out of the nozzles with a lot of force. You dont want to be blasting the roots with a pressure washer
Those nozzles also have a pretty small average droplet size, but there is room for adjustment by varying the air/water pressure. For any given nozzle, you can adjust the droplet size by changing the air to liquid mass ratio - within limits. Note that is a mass ratio not a pressure ratio, so you need to know the flow rates for each.
To me, the biggest downside to those nozzles - or any pressure fed nozzles - is that your rez needs to be pressurized. That really limits you. You cant easily see into or stirr or check, or clean, or drain or fill a pressurized rez. The pressure chamber will be more $$, but it also forces you to spend more on extra regulators, and solenoids.
The other big downside to a pressurized rez is PH control. At low pressures, this isnt a big deal, but as you increase the atmospheric pressure on water, the dissolved oxygen and C02 levels increase. Extra dissolved O2 is good, but extra dissolved C02 will drive the PH down. C02 in solution is in the form of carbonic acid. More acid = lower PH. So you might mix up your rez solution at a PH of 5.8, but when you pressurize it, it will go down. How far is hard to tell because you cant easily measure it in a pressurize rez.
When I was running HPA with accumulator tank pressures in the 120-130 PSI range, I had to be very careful to get ALL the air out of the tank, and lines. If I didnt, I got really wild PH swings. When I drained water out, it would actually fizz from the C02 leaving the solution due to the lower pressure.
Those nozzles you linked run a lower pressures, but the same chemistry applies.
Anyway, for those reasons, Im only using siphon feed nozzles. YMMV
Im having great results with Delavan 30609-8 siphon fed nozzles. Plus, they are dirt cheap compared to Spraying Systems nozzles at $25 ea. My main issues have been nozzle placement. The roots keep trying to over grow and swallow the nozzles, and I have had trouble getting good, even coverage on all sides of each plants roots. Im now using 3ea nozzles shooting up from the bottom.
These pics are from my last couple of grows with the delavan nozzles in various configurations. Im in the middle of redoing it all with three nozzles and playing with different siphon heights.
Attachments
Last edited:
JacFlasche
Member
Those nozzles also have a pretty small average droplet size, but there is room for adjustment by varying the air/water pressure. For any given nozzle, you can adjust the droplet size by changing the air to liquid mass ratio - within limits. Note that is a mass ratio not a pressure ratio, so you need to know the flow rates for each.
To me, the biggest downside to those nozzles - or any pressure fed nozzles - is that your rez needs to be pressurized. That really limits you. You cant easily see into or stirr or check, or clean, or drain or fill a pressurized rez. The pressure chamber will be more $$, but it also forces you to spend more on extra regulators, and solenoids.
The other big downside to a pressurized rez is PH control. At low pressures, this isnt a big deal, but as you increase the atmospheric pressure on water, the dissolved oxygen and C02 levels increase. Extra dissolved O2 is good, but extra dissolved C02 will drive the PH down. C02 in solution is in the form of carbonic acid. More acid = lower PH. So you might mix up your rez solution at a PH of 5.8, but when you pressurize it, it will go down. How far is hard to tell because you cant easily measure it in a pressurize rez.
When I was running HPA with accumulator tank pressures in the 120-130 PSI range, I had to be very careful to get ALL the air out of the tank, and lines. If I didnt, I got really wild PH swings. When I drained water out, it would actually fizz from the C02 leaving the solution due to the lower pressure.
Those nozzles you linked run a lower pressures, but the same chemistry applies.
Anyway, for those reasons, Im only using siphon feed nozzles. YMMV
Im having great results with Delavan 30609-8 siphon fed nozzles. Plus, they are dirt cheap compared to Spraying Systems nozzles at $25 ea. My main issues have been nozzle placement. The roots keep trying to over grow and swallow the nozzles, and I have had trouble getting good, even coverage on all sides of each plants roots. Im now using 3ea nozzles shooting up from the bottom.
These pics are from my last couple of grows with the delavan nozzles in various configurations. Im in the middle of redoing it all with three nozzles and playing with different siphon heights.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks, this is some great info. Many ideas that I had never heard of or considered, such as using fiber pots as root chambers. Brilliant.
What is the difference between a pressurized reservoir and an accumulator?
I guess I should put a thermocouple in my root chamber. I have never even considered the temp in there.
I am presently using a 75gal polypropylene tuff tote from Home Depot. It's a little over 19inches tall. And it needs to be taller, but I have limited headroom.
I have a 10 gal reservoir that is partly underneath the root chamber, but not totally, so I can open the lid and just pull it out and dump it. It's one of those totes made to go underneath a bed.
I started using DTW but my system used so much water that I was unwilling to deal with it.
I have seventeen 2gal pr minute nozzles running between 80 and 145 PSI. I have not figured out how to make the lower limit higher on my pressure switch. I have only changed out the reservoir twice and I am in the second week of flowering. It got kind of scummy when they first started to flower, but since the second change the water is perfectly clear now. So I recirculate.
I started with 19 seedlings and all but four of them were male. And all the females were on the same side of the tote. So I pulled out all the males and it was a chore getting the roots out thorough four inch holes, like heaving on a tug of war rope. I would get them part way out and the weight of them, and them being all tangled up would pull them back down soon as I tried to get a further grip. I am sure there are a lot of plantless root debris still down there. And I am sure I ripped the heck out of the roots of the females when I removed them, but I didn't seem to matter at all.
I have a line coming off my main line that feeds a smaller cloning set up with four more nozzles that is outside the tent. I have separate solenoid valves for it and it is timed differently than the main solenoid so they never fire at the same time.
I have never experienced any of the problems with ph or fizzing water that you mentioned. My ph just stays the same all the time. I never use up or down, just the nutes and RO DI water.
My system took about a gallon a day in veg, now it's about twice that in flower., since I turned the lights up to ninety percent from sixty. I had to lower the ppm to 600 because they were using twice as much. I really thought I was going to have to DTW but am happy that I don't have to.
I am really glad to hear that that compressor has a big enough tank to run your system. I was wondering about how big a tank I should get.
So the situation I am in right now is, I have maybe four or so more weeks until harvest, and my new clones are ready to go. All girls this time. I had considered two options. I have another 75 gallon tote, and It could fit right beside the other one and fit perfectly under my GeekBeast 650, This time I would only grow four plants in each of them in a row in the middle with none close to the ends. It's obvious that a row in the center with empty space near the end walls is the best place.
The other option I was thinking about is getting some tall rectangular trash cans or I saw some cheap 55 gal food drums that were tall and thin, and use one of them for each plant. If I did this I would need to have a pump evacuate the drainage instead of the gravity feeds I now use.
If I was not in an apartment with limited headroom, which will not be a permanent condition, I think I would adapt your fiber pot idea. I really like it. I would just buy a wide roll of that plastic that they make fiber pots out of and make some big tubes and cut holes in the floor and let them hang down for eight feet into the basement.
Don't you get a lot of salt build up in the fabric because of your water evaporating and leaving nutes behind?
Anyhow if I use the tall drums or cans instead of the totes I was considering having four different solenoid valves for each one. Then I could have different sets of nozzles spray at different levels and directions on different schedules or just be off totally until I wanted the roots to grow in a different direction.
Luckily you can get 3/8 solenoid quick connect valves for less then a dollar each from China. I have three Austrian made valves that cost me over sixty dollars each. I bought one of the cheap Chinese valves on amazon for ten dollars to check them out. So far so good.
I was thinking last week that there is no reason that the root chamber has to be rigid. But I was thinking along the lines of using plastic sheeting, and shaping it with some kind of frame to the optimal shape for a particular spay nozzle.
So did you notice an appreciable benefit when you switched to AA?
This is a pic of the invasion my sativa hybrids are experiencing from a real sativa that is popping through.
To me, the biggest downside to those nozzles - or any pressure fed nozzles - is that your rez needs to be pressurized. That really limits you. You cant easily see into or stirr or check, or clean, or drain or fill a pressurized rez. The pressure chamber will be more $$, but it also forces you to spend more on extra regulators, and solenoids.
The other big downside to a pressurized rez is PH control. At low pressures, this isnt a big deal, but as you increase the atmospheric pressure on water, the dissolved oxygen and C02 levels increase. Extra dissolved O2 is good, but extra dissolved C02 will drive the PH down. C02 in solution is in the form of carbonic acid. More acid = lower PH. So you might mix up your rez solution at a PH of 5.8, but when you pressurize it, it will go down. How far is hard to tell because you cant easily measure it in a pressurize rez.
When I was running HPA with accumulator tank pressures in the 120-130 PSI range, I had to be very careful to get ALL the air out of the tank, and lines. If I didnt, I got really wild PH swings. When I drained water out, it would actually fizz from the C02 leaving the solution due to the lower pressure.
Those nozzles you linked run a lower pressures, but the same chemistry applies.
Anyway, for those reasons, Im only using siphon feed nozzles. YMMV
Im having great results with Delavan 30609-8 siphon fed nozzles. Plus, they are dirt cheap compared to Spraying Systems nozzles at $25 ea. My main issues have been nozzle placement. The roots keep trying to over grow and swallow the nozzles, and I have had trouble getting good, even coverage on all sides of each plants roots. Im now using 3ea nozzles shooting up from the bottom.
These pics are from my last couple of grows with the delavan nozzles in various configurations. Im in the middle of redoing it all with three nozzles and playing with different siphon heights.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks, this is some great info. Many ideas that I had never heard of or considered, such as using fiber pots as root chambers. Brilliant.
What is the difference between a pressurized reservoir and an accumulator?
I guess I should put a thermocouple in my root chamber. I have never even considered the temp in there.
I am presently using a 75gal polypropylene tuff tote from Home Depot. It's a little over 19inches tall. And it needs to be taller, but I have limited headroom.
I have a 10 gal reservoir that is partly underneath the root chamber, but not totally, so I can open the lid and just pull it out and dump it. It's one of those totes made to go underneath a bed.
I started using DTW but my system used so much water that I was unwilling to deal with it.
I have seventeen 2gal pr minute nozzles running between 80 and 145 PSI. I have not figured out how to make the lower limit higher on my pressure switch. I have only changed out the reservoir twice and I am in the second week of flowering. It got kind of scummy when they first started to flower, but since the second change the water is perfectly clear now. So I recirculate.
I started with 19 seedlings and all but four of them were male. And all the females were on the same side of the tote. So I pulled out all the males and it was a chore getting the roots out thorough four inch holes, like heaving on a tug of war rope. I would get them part way out and the weight of them, and them being all tangled up would pull them back down soon as I tried to get a further grip. I am sure there are a lot of plantless root debris still down there. And I am sure I ripped the heck out of the roots of the females when I removed them, but I didn't seem to matter at all.
I have a line coming off my main line that feeds a smaller cloning set up with four more nozzles that is outside the tent. I have separate solenoid valves for it and it is timed differently than the main solenoid so they never fire at the same time.
I have never experienced any of the problems with ph or fizzing water that you mentioned. My ph just stays the same all the time. I never use up or down, just the nutes and RO DI water.
My system took about a gallon a day in veg, now it's about twice that in flower., since I turned the lights up to ninety percent from sixty. I had to lower the ppm to 600 because they were using twice as much. I really thought I was going to have to DTW but am happy that I don't have to.
I am really glad to hear that that compressor has a big enough tank to run your system. I was wondering about how big a tank I should get.
So the situation I am in right now is, I have maybe four or so more weeks until harvest, and my new clones are ready to go. All girls this time. I had considered two options. I have another 75 gallon tote, and It could fit right beside the other one and fit perfectly under my GeekBeast 650, This time I would only grow four plants in each of them in a row in the middle with none close to the ends. It's obvious that a row in the center with empty space near the end walls is the best place.
The other option I was thinking about is getting some tall rectangular trash cans or I saw some cheap 55 gal food drums that were tall and thin, and use one of them for each plant. If I did this I would need to have a pump evacuate the drainage instead of the gravity feeds I now use.
If I was not in an apartment with limited headroom, which will not be a permanent condition, I think I would adapt your fiber pot idea. I really like it. I would just buy a wide roll of that plastic that they make fiber pots out of and make some big tubes and cut holes in the floor and let them hang down for eight feet into the basement.
Don't you get a lot of salt build up in the fabric because of your water evaporating and leaving nutes behind?
Anyhow if I use the tall drums or cans instead of the totes I was considering having four different solenoid valves for each one. Then I could have different sets of nozzles spray at different levels and directions on different schedules or just be off totally until I wanted the roots to grow in a different direction.
Luckily you can get 3/8 solenoid quick connect valves for less then a dollar each from China. I have three Austrian made valves that cost me over sixty dollars each. I bought one of the cheap Chinese valves on amazon for ten dollars to check them out. So far so good.
I was thinking last week that there is no reason that the root chamber has to be rigid. But I was thinking along the lines of using plastic sheeting, and shaping it with some kind of frame to the optimal shape for a particular spay nozzle.
So did you notice an appreciable benefit when you switched to AA?
This is a pic of the invasion my sativa hybrids are experiencing from a real sativa that is popping through.
Attachments
![IMG_20200906_155652[1].jpg](/data/attachments/3778/3778303-1ce077eadf2988bb6c2bfd2e8db3352d.jpg)
The only real difference is the operating pressure. HPA accumulators typically run a minimum of 80 PSI and up depending on your nozzles. With AA, the pressure fed nozzles Ive looked at seem to max out at maybe 60 PSI and the ones that seem more useful for us run from under 3 PSI to maybe 40 PSI max.
The other big difference is HPA accumulators are usually made using tanks with internal bladders. If you are running at the lower end with AA nozzles, you dont need a bladder tank, so costs should go down and safety up.
Good idea I think. How do your roots look? If they are nice and white, then you are doing fine. If they have fuzzy hairs, it cant get much better.
Sorry, Im under the weather, so I will have to finish this later, but I have a few questions - what nozzles are you using and what is the orofice size and flow rate? I dont think you meant 2 gal/minute. Maybe 2 gal/hour? Are you using a pressure reducer or just feeding directly from the accumulator tank?
Sorry - more later.....
When I was doing HPA, I used a very simple set up. I set my rez higher than the pump inlet with a inline filter which kept the line full all the way to the Aquatec 8800. https://www.amazon.com/Aquatec-8800-Booster-Pump-Transformer/dp/B003ZJMSEY mist heads scattered around the large tote (~ 20g) > DTW. I have a Sentinel digital timer that was not accurate < 1 second, so I set it for 2 seconds; pause time depends on number of mist heads, size of tote.... Worked great. I would still use this set up except living in high heat climate I would need to run AC 24/7 in order to coddle the delicate root hairs, so I went to F & D
hth
hth
JacFlasche
Member
Good idea I think. How do your roots look? If they are nice and white, then you are doing fine. If they have fuzzy hairs, it cant get much better.
They were white the last time I saw them, which was when I pulled a bunch of them out of the root chamber because they were male. I thought they were too wet so I went from 3 to 2 seconds every five minutes. I do not want to disturb my plants at this point. When they were younger I could just lift the whole top off and set it on a spare 75 gal tote so I could tune the fogger assembly, so I saw them a lot, but now they are so tangled in my scrog screen and crisscrossed with velcro ties that I can't take the lid off any more. But they seem happy except when I give them too much light.
Sorry, Im under the weather, so I will have to finish this later, but I have a few questions - what nozzles are you using and what is the orofice size and flow rate? I dont think you meant 2 gal/minute. Maybe 2 gal/hour? Are you using a pressure reducer or just feeding directly from the accumulator tank?
Hope you are feeling better and it is nothing serious.
This is the nozzle I am using:
This is the reason I chose it, though I did find his procedure for measuring droplet size questionable:
You are correct the flow rate is 2gal per hour.
I am going directly from the tank through a solinoid valve set for two second every five minutes.
They were white the last time I saw them, which was when I pulled a bunch of them out of the root chamber because they were male. I thought they were too wet so I went from 3 to 2 seconds every five minutes. I do not want to disturb my plants at this point. When they were younger I could just lift the whole top off and set it on a spare 75 gal tote so I could tune the fogger assembly, so I saw them a lot, but now they are so tangled in my scrog screen and crisscrossed with velcro ties that I can't take the lid off any more. But they seem happy except when I give them too much light.
Sorry, Im under the weather, so I will have to finish this later, but I have a few questions - what nozzles are you using and what is the orofice size and flow rate? I dont think you meant 2 gal/minute. Maybe 2 gal/hour? Are you using a pressure reducer or just feeding directly from the accumulator tank?
Hope you are feeling better and it is nothing serious.
This is the nozzle I am using:
Amazon.com : Tefen Plastic Fog Nozzle with Poly Filter Misting Poultry Cream 1/8" NPT 2 GPH 100 Pack : Patio, Lawn & Garden
Amazon.com : Tefen Plastic Fog Nozzle with Poly Filter Misting Poultry Cream 1/8" NPT 2 GPH 100 Pack : Patio, Lawn & Garden
www.amazon.com
This is the reason I chose it, though I did find his procedure for measuring droplet size questionable:
You are correct the flow rate is 2gal per hour.
I am going directly from the tank through a solinoid valve set for two second every five minutes.
JacFlasche
Member
I used a similar system while I was waiting for my pressure switches and solenoid valves. It was very noisy, lots of pump hammering. I use aquatec pumps too, but not the kind you can find on amazon. I had the tech guy at Aquatec spec out exactly what pump my system should use. There are hundreds of different combinations of options. The only place I could find them was a distributor in Cali. I try to keep my temp at 77 just under the first layer of leaves on my SCROG. I have been running AC a lot since I turned up my GeekBeast pro to more than 50% since they are flowering. Though 100% is just too bright and it burns them, so now they get 80% with IR and intermittent UV. Also I run a dehumidifier at this point to stop bud rot and that adds some heat. I am pulling about a gallon a day of water out of the air in my tent. My res is underneath the rooting chamber, no problem for the pump at all. I use a 50 micron filter bag inside the resevoir and a hundred mesh spin down filter then a 100 mesh inline filter before the pump, then of course there is a finger filter in each spray head. I use Dutch Masters hydro/aero nuitz and Drip Free, and so far have not had one clogged fogger. I do not DTW I use the same water over and over and when they started flowering it got pretty thick, still no clogged foggers. I have only dumped my res twice in two months. I will do it again this week even though the water is very clear in there. Then that is it till harvest.
Im still fighting kidney stones, but Im going to give you some (possibly un-wanted) advice on your setup 
Keep in mind that I am obsessed with fuzzy roots. There is nothing wrong with nice white, smooth roots, but fuzzy roots are the ultimate bomb. Nothing is better than fuzzy roots. Smooth white roots are better than what most hydro growers ever see, but fuzzy is the next level up.
The thing is, you can get nice white, smooth roots doing LPA, or most any other type of hydro - which is a lot cheaper and easier than HPA or AAA.
You are running 17ea 2 GPH nozzles at 2 seconds ON and 300 seconds OFF in a 75 gallon root chamber?
That works out to 5.35 gallons per day flow rate. I can see why DTW didnt work out for you
Your chamber is 1.5 times the volume of mine, but your flow rate is 5 times what mine is. Some where around 1 gal/day is my fuzzy root flow rate. Pumping 5 times that much water through the system will never give you fuzzy roots. Plus, its a big waste of nutes.
According to Atomizer, there are 3 basic rules to HPA/AAA.
1) You need to fill the chamber with 5 to 80 micron mist. He says that takes between .02 to .06 ml/gallon/ON cycle of flow rate. You have a flow rate of .95 ml/gal/cycle or somewhere between 15 and 45 times what he recommends. Basically, you have way too many nozzles and the on time is too long. The ON time, number of nozzles, and nozzle flow rate is what affects this number.
2) He recommends a daily throughput of between .05 up to .1 liters/day/gallon of chamber. Your number is only 2.7 times the max. Not so far off on this one. This number is effected also by ON time and flow rate, but the OFF time is what you change once your ON time is adjusted to properly "fill the chamber".
3) Your goal is to fill the chamber with mist on each ON cycle - but just barely. Too much water = smooth roots. You adjust your OFF time based on the hang time of the mist. You dont waht to roots to dry out at all. Idealy they will always have mist surrounding them. If the mist is gone before the next cycle, you waited too long. The goal is to create a nice UNIFORM mist environment. You do not want a wet cycle followed by a dry cycle. You want to create that Goldilocks "just right", uniform, unchanging, mist environment. This is NOT always easy to do depending on the combination of chamber size, shape, number and flow rate of the nozzles.
If you want fuzzy roots, and to be able to run DTW, I would recommend you drop down to 4 nozzles max. Run them at 0.5 seconds ON x around 60 sec OFF and see how it goes. Measure your hang time and be sure your off time is less than that. Adjust your ON time so the roots are not tooo
wet. You want to see a few droplets hanging on the roots, but not drenched roots. Look at my pics above.. The roots look dry except for a few drops here and there.
These are the same exact rules that apply to AAA, so you can get good practice playing with your current setup before you spend the money switching to AAA. I would suggest you try these things after your harvest. Stick a few plants in there with only 4 nozzles and see if you can get fuzzy roots. If you can, you will know what flow rates to start with when you switch to AAA. For sure change to DTW. Your plants will be much happier of they always get fresh, perfect nutes on each cycle instead of old recycled, contaminated, partially depleted nutes.
Plus, once you get the system dialed in, I bet you will be able to lower your EC levels a bunch - which will save you even more on nutes.
It will also help a lot if you use an accumulator tank and a pressure reducer before the solenoids. That way you will have a uniform flow rate, and droplet size from the nozzles. In fact, I dont remember seeing pics of anyone that got good fuzzy roots without those items.
On the other hand, if you are happy with how things are going now, then there is no real reason to change anything. There is especially no reason to change to AAA unless you are going to try to get fuzzy roots and go for the ideal growth environment. I dont see the benifit of spending all th emoney to change to a more complex, finicky system unless you plan to move to a higher level of growing. If you are happy with smooth roots, Id even recommend downgrading to LPA for the cost savings and simpler system.
Sory for giving you a hard time. I hope this didnt come across in a bad way. Kidney stones, and being dopped up and stoned sometimes increaes my a$$hole quotient. If so, I appologize!
Keep in mind that I am obsessed with fuzzy roots. There is nothing wrong with nice white, smooth roots, but fuzzy roots are the ultimate bomb. Nothing is better than fuzzy roots. Smooth white roots are better than what most hydro growers ever see, but fuzzy is the next level up.
The thing is, you can get nice white, smooth roots doing LPA, or most any other type of hydro - which is a lot cheaper and easier than HPA or AAA.
You are running 17ea 2 GPH nozzles at 2 seconds ON and 300 seconds OFF in a 75 gallon root chamber?
That works out to 5.35 gallons per day flow rate. I can see why DTW didnt work out for you
Your chamber is 1.5 times the volume of mine, but your flow rate is 5 times what mine is. Some where around 1 gal/day is my fuzzy root flow rate. Pumping 5 times that much water through the system will never give you fuzzy roots. Plus, its a big waste of nutes.
According to Atomizer, there are 3 basic rules to HPA/AAA.
1) You need to fill the chamber with 5 to 80 micron mist. He says that takes between .02 to .06 ml/gallon/ON cycle of flow rate. You have a flow rate of .95 ml/gal/cycle or somewhere between 15 and 45 times what he recommends. Basically, you have way too many nozzles and the on time is too long. The ON time, number of nozzles, and nozzle flow rate is what affects this number.
2) He recommends a daily throughput of between .05 up to .1 liters/day/gallon of chamber. Your number is only 2.7 times the max. Not so far off on this one. This number is effected also by ON time and flow rate, but the OFF time is what you change once your ON time is adjusted to properly "fill the chamber".
3) Your goal is to fill the chamber with mist on each ON cycle - but just barely. Too much water = smooth roots. You adjust your OFF time based on the hang time of the mist. You dont waht to roots to dry out at all. Idealy they will always have mist surrounding them. If the mist is gone before the next cycle, you waited too long. The goal is to create a nice UNIFORM mist environment. You do not want a wet cycle followed by a dry cycle. You want to create that Goldilocks "just right", uniform, unchanging, mist environment. This is NOT always easy to do depending on the combination of chamber size, shape, number and flow rate of the nozzles.
If you want fuzzy roots, and to be able to run DTW, I would recommend you drop down to 4 nozzles max. Run them at 0.5 seconds ON x around 60 sec OFF and see how it goes. Measure your hang time and be sure your off time is less than that. Adjust your ON time so the roots are not tooo
wet. You want to see a few droplets hanging on the roots, but not drenched roots. Look at my pics above.. The roots look dry except for a few drops here and there.
These are the same exact rules that apply to AAA, so you can get good practice playing with your current setup before you spend the money switching to AAA. I would suggest you try these things after your harvest. Stick a few plants in there with only 4 nozzles and see if you can get fuzzy roots. If you can, you will know what flow rates to start with when you switch to AAA. For sure change to DTW. Your plants will be much happier of they always get fresh, perfect nutes on each cycle instead of old recycled, contaminated, partially depleted nutes.
Plus, once you get the system dialed in, I bet you will be able to lower your EC levels a bunch - which will save you even more on nutes.
It will also help a lot if you use an accumulator tank and a pressure reducer before the solenoids. That way you will have a uniform flow rate, and droplet size from the nozzles. In fact, I dont remember seeing pics of anyone that got good fuzzy roots without those items.
On the other hand, if you are happy with how things are going now, then there is no real reason to change anything. There is especially no reason to change to AAA unless you are going to try to get fuzzy roots and go for the ideal growth environment. I dont see the benifit of spending all th emoney to change to a more complex, finicky system unless you plan to move to a higher level of growing. If you are happy with smooth roots, Id even recommend downgrading to LPA for the cost savings and simpler system.
Sory for giving you a hard time. I hope this didnt come across in a bad way. Kidney stones, and being dopped up and stoned sometimes increaes my a$$hole quotient. If so, I appologize!
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Yeah, there are a bunch of thngs wrong with that video. Unless you have some very $$$ lab equipment there is no way to accurately measure droplet size. Plus, all nozzles produce a wide range of droplet sizes. This is usually expressed as VMD or SMD. VMD is Volume Median Diameter. SMD is Sauder Mean Diamater and is named after some Sauder guy
Both are pretty technical when you get into it, but not very useful for us average guys without the special equipment. Very few nozzles have accurate VMD or SMD numbers available, but some do. Anyway, the only thing we can do is measure "hang time", and make our best guess from there. You can use this chart to make a rough guess about the smallest droplets your nozzles create.
If you measure how long it takes for the mist to disipate, that will tell you - very very roughly - what the SMALLEST droplet size is that your nozzles are making. For example, it takes 50 micron droplets 40 seconds to fall 10 ft. Your chamber is 19" tall? So, if your nozzles produce 50 micron droplets, it will take them 19"/120" x 40 = aprox 6 seconds to fall that 19".
5 micron droplets take 4070 seconds to fall 10 ft, so in your chamber that would work out to 19/120 x 4070 = 644 seconds or over 10 minutes.
I use a cat toy lazer shooting down from the top of my chamber. I put my camera on the side of the chamber taking a video of the lazer light. I let the nozzles run for a while to be sure the chamber is as full as it will get, then start the recording, and turn off the nozzles and wait.
Deciding when to call it as far as how faded the lazer is is up to you. I usually call it when the lazer fades out a the top of the chamber and it starts to fade in other places. Here is an example of one of my old videos.
For me, I am calling that hang time at around 60 seconds - when the banding starts to show up. But there are still lots of droplets in the chamber after 2 minutes and I could have let the video run a lot longer.
So if we take that 60 second number, and go with my chamber height which is 29", that works out to 29"/60 sec = a fall time of 0.48 inches/second, or about 240 seconds over 10'. On that chart it puts the droplet size somewhere around 20 microns. So in my chamber, all the droplets larger than about 20 microns are gone by about 1 minute.
However, there are still lots of droplets hanging around after 120 seconds. Those are probably in he 15 micron range. In the past I have waited closer to 5 minutes for all the droplets to be gone. Those were in the 10 micron range.
The thing is, its not just any one droplet size that matters. You need that range. Typically, the numbers quoted are 20-80 microns or maybe 5 to 80. Most of the time you hear the "average" should be 50 microns, but no one has said whether that is VMD or SMD or a simple numerical average. Those three are always different for any given nozzle.
here is a chart from Spraying Systems on two of their nozzles. You can see how the numbers are different. Unfortunately, I dont see that this chart - or all my math above - really helps all that much except to hopefully get you in the ball park.
The only real test is to grow some roots and see how they like it. if you can get fuzzy roots, you got it right
JacFlasche
Member
Wow this is great info. I have no ego entanglement with my set-up at all. Though I have been growing since 67' this is the first time I have done so without an organic soil outside mode, so I am grateful for any advice that comes from real knowledge or experience and yours is both. I had kidney stones once and fortunately had them smashed with sound waves before they started to move, also fortunately the doc who did it found bladder cancer while doing it and removed it. Luckiest day of my life. I understand the extreme pain that can be involved in passing them. My doc recommended cutting way down on the amount of protein I was eating (sage advice). So I hope this all passes for you soon.
I am going to study your post in detail and incorporate your advise after my present harvest. The only info that is not right about my set-up is that I do run an accumulator that is rated for 150psi working pressure and I have 13 foggers in my root chamber, the rest are in a tote that I use for cloning that is fed by a separate line and solenoid, but uses the same res, pump and accumulator, but turns on and off at different times than the main chamber.
I originally started with ten nozzles, and nineteen plants, but the plants in the corners were becoming stunted so I added more foggers. I knew I was running too wet, but I was concerned that the roots were so dense that they would not all get water.
Anyhow, thanks for taking the time and trouble to give me this info. I do not have time right now to give it the attention it deserves and have only read it once, but I wanted to tell you how much I appreciate it right away. I will respond further in short order. Regards
I am going to study your post in detail and incorporate your advise after my present harvest. The only info that is not right about my set-up is that I do run an accumulator that is rated for 150psi working pressure and I have 13 foggers in my root chamber, the rest are in a tote that I use for cloning that is fed by a separate line and solenoid, but uses the same res, pump and accumulator, but turns on and off at different times than the main chamber.
I originally started with ten nozzles, and nineteen plants, but the plants in the corners were becoming stunted so I added more foggers. I knew I was running too wet, but I was concerned that the roots were so dense that they would not all get water.
Anyhow, thanks for taking the time and trouble to give me this info. I do not have time right now to give it the attention it deserves and have only read it once, but I wanted to tell you how much I appreciate it right away. I will respond further in short order. Regards
JacFlasche
Member
I hope that you are doing better physically. Everyone who has ever had a kidney stone move, knows the agony you are experiencing. My dad, who never complained about anything ever, called his kidney stones the worst thing he ever experience, and he served in the Pacific in WW2, was wounded and got jungle root during his recovery.
Well, I finally have some time to get back to you. I watched all your videos on youtube, very interesting. The fact that you confess to being obsessed with fuzzy roots indicates to me that by luck, I am in contact with the right person. Your procedures about hang time and advice is important and realistic info that I will certainly act upon when rebuilding my setup. I think one more crop with HPA then I will be switching to AA.
I guess I will have to locate a timer that can be used for less than one second intervals. The three I have only go down to one second. Any advice on a good timer to buy would be appreciated.
I have seen some photos somewhere of Atomizer using a barrier of some kind of mesh or net inside his root chamber. A common problem, and certainly one that I have a bit myself is roots overgrowing spray nozzles. I guess ideally I would have a root chamber so tall that the roots could not reach the bottom and I could spray upward from the bottom. But that is just unrealistic at this point for me. So I have been wondering about the effect of an internal barrier that would prevent the roots from overgrowing the nozzles. I used to grow outside when I lived on the central coast of cali, and I grew underneath a nylon net that had a mesh so fine that no insects could get through it, (this is what the biggest grower in Columbia used too) and though it cut out about ten percent of the light, it was well worth the trade off.
I am wondering about your opinion on using something like this as a baffle. Do you think it would be possible to bar roots from getting too close to the nozzles yet get enough fog through them to support growth? Alternately, before the fiber pots came along, there was a copper compound that some people use to paint the inside of their pots with to keep plants from getting root bound. I would have to check if it could be used for food crops, but the idea was that instead of the roots starting to spin around and bind they hit the copper and would die back and never get root bound. I wonder if a copper mesh would do the same thing.
I am also wondering at this point how much root damage I could cause to my clones, because my clones roots have almost all grown together in my cloner because the flowers in my main grow are taking way longer than I anticipated to ripen. I may have to consider my clones to be mother plants and take new cuttings, but I sure wish I could use them in my new grow that is, if damaged roots would not cause too much delay.
I am presently waiting patiently for trichomes to change color. But they seem determined to remain clear. I am presently running about 400ppm: 8ml bloom, 1ml micro and .5ml grow nutes per gal. Dutch Masters pro hydro aero.
dutchmasternutrients.com
I use only the three part and cal/mag and drip free. I have stopped all cal/mag a few days ago.
What ppm have you found to work best in the last few weeks of ripening? I have been cutting back from about 1,000ppm at the peak to the present 400. When I see a definite change in color of the trichs I will probably move to even less nutes and in the last few days just water. I was wondering what ppm you would use for these last couple weeks?
My crop is mainly Ultra White Amnesia Haze from Spain, that I crossed with Kosher Kush from LA. The Ultra White is a great strain: Amnesia crossed with White Widow. Then I have a true sativa sativa that is a crazy mix of landrace Punta Roha, landrace Malangi, Bodhi Gogi OG, and a landrace from north western China. But the Ultra White is by far the better producer -- so far.
Anyway, thanks again for this great advice and info. I look forward to putting it to use and moving toward a truly optimized system. But I must confess, that even were I to do no better than the average hydro grower, I am totally sold on aero, and would not change back. I even love the sound of my foggers charging the chamber, the whole thing is so clean.
Regards.
Well, I finally have some time to get back to you. I watched all your videos on youtube, very interesting. The fact that you confess to being obsessed with fuzzy roots indicates to me that by luck, I am in contact with the right person. Your procedures about hang time and advice is important and realistic info that I will certainly act upon when rebuilding my setup. I think one more crop with HPA then I will be switching to AA.
I guess I will have to locate a timer that can be used for less than one second intervals. The three I have only go down to one second. Any advice on a good timer to buy would be appreciated.
I have seen some photos somewhere of Atomizer using a barrier of some kind of mesh or net inside his root chamber. A common problem, and certainly one that I have a bit myself is roots overgrowing spray nozzles. I guess ideally I would have a root chamber so tall that the roots could not reach the bottom and I could spray upward from the bottom. But that is just unrealistic at this point for me. So I have been wondering about the effect of an internal barrier that would prevent the roots from overgrowing the nozzles. I used to grow outside when I lived on the central coast of cali, and I grew underneath a nylon net that had a mesh so fine that no insects could get through it, (this is what the biggest grower in Columbia used too) and though it cut out about ten percent of the light, it was well worth the trade off.
I am wondering about your opinion on using something like this as a baffle. Do you think it would be possible to bar roots from getting too close to the nozzles yet get enough fog through them to support growth? Alternately, before the fiber pots came along, there was a copper compound that some people use to paint the inside of their pots with to keep plants from getting root bound. I would have to check if it could be used for food crops, but the idea was that instead of the roots starting to spin around and bind they hit the copper and would die back and never get root bound. I wonder if a copper mesh would do the same thing.
I am also wondering at this point how much root damage I could cause to my clones, because my clones roots have almost all grown together in my cloner because the flowers in my main grow are taking way longer than I anticipated to ripen. I may have to consider my clones to be mother plants and take new cuttings, but I sure wish I could use them in my new grow that is, if damaged roots would not cause too much delay.
I am presently waiting patiently for trichomes to change color. But they seem determined to remain clear. I am presently running about 400ppm: 8ml bloom, 1ml micro and .5ml grow nutes per gal. Dutch Masters pro hydro aero.
Aqua Feed Bundle
Dutch Master Commercial Edition Aqua Feed discounted product bundle includes all the products you need to grow cannabis successfully in DWC, NFT, aeroponics etc.
dutchmasternutrients.com
What ppm have you found to work best in the last few weeks of ripening? I have been cutting back from about 1,000ppm at the peak to the present 400. When I see a definite change in color of the trichs I will probably move to even less nutes and in the last few days just water. I was wondering what ppm you would use for these last couple weeks?
My crop is mainly Ultra White Amnesia Haze from Spain, that I crossed with Kosher Kush from LA. The Ultra White is a great strain: Amnesia crossed with White Widow. Then I have a true sativa sativa that is a crazy mix of landrace Punta Roha, landrace Malangi, Bodhi Gogi OG, and a landrace from north western China. But the Ultra White is by far the better producer -- so far.
Anyway, thanks again for this great advice and info. I look forward to putting it to use and moving toward a truly optimized system. But I must confess, that even were I to do no better than the average hydro grower, I am totally sold on aero, and would not change back. I even love the sound of my foggers charging the chamber, the whole thing is so clean.
Regards.
Thanks for the kind words on the stones! really a[[appreciate it
Im rushed, so just a few quick notes. As far as I know, no one has ever had a barrier/baffle/grate/mesh/trellis of any kind work out.
Roots will grow through any fabric/screen other than closely woven nylon, and even then, they will find the tiniest flaw and grow right through it. Check out Membrane Meniscus threads on here for more details. The point is, you will have blocked all mist flow long before you can stop the roots.
Trying to keep roots away from nozzles is an on-going battle. It all depends on your chamber dimensions and nozzles placement and the number of plants. It sounds to me like you are growing so many plants in the chamber you are blocking the circulation of mist. I need more details, but Im guessing you need fewer plants or a much larger chamber.
Keep in mind, my standard of success is fuzzy roots - NOT health plants. You can get perfectly healthy plants with smooth roots - which you will get by over watering.
On the clones - if the roots look healthy, you will likely slow them a bit by cutting the roots apart, but they will recover rapidly. A week at most. I would just gently tug them until they come apart. Cutting with clean scissors or a knife would also be ok if needed.
Sorry - gotta run....
Sent you a PM to look me up on OG
Im rushed, so just a few quick notes. As far as I know, no one has ever had a barrier/baffle/grate/mesh/trellis of any kind work out.
Roots will grow through any fabric/screen other than closely woven nylon, and even then, they will find the tiniest flaw and grow right through it. Check out Membrane Meniscus threads on here for more details. The point is, you will have blocked all mist flow long before you can stop the roots.
Trying to keep roots away from nozzles is an on-going battle. It all depends on your chamber dimensions and nozzles placement and the number of plants. It sounds to me like you are growing so many plants in the chamber you are blocking the circulation of mist. I need more details, but Im guessing you need fewer plants or a much larger chamber.
Keep in mind, my standard of success is fuzzy roots - NOT health plants. You can get perfectly healthy plants with smooth roots - which you will get by over watering.
On the clones - if the roots look healthy, you will likely slow them a bit by cutting the roots apart, but they will recover rapidly. A week at most. I would just gently tug them until they come apart. Cutting with clean scissors or a knife would also be ok if needed.
Sorry - gotta run....
Sent you a PM to look me up on OG
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Oh - as far as EC levels - that depends on your droplet size and the evaporation rate in your chamber. I used to need an EC in the 1.0 to even 1.2 range - BUT - as I have managed to get the average droplet size down, the required EC has also gone down. I am now never over 0.8 EC, and trending down as I experiment with smaller VMD ranges.
Large droplets dont have time to evaporate much before they get to the roots and get absorbed. that means the EC doesnt change much as the water evaporates. Smaller droplets evaporate faster and can therefore see much larger EC increases by the time the roots get them absorbed. So smaller droplets can mean running at much lower EC levels then "normal".
I let the leaves tell me what EC to run at. If they are pale, I increase EC. If they are too dark or burning, lower EC.
I do not believe in changing EC levels or feeds as the plans grow other than what I just said. I use Jacks 321 hydro with no additives all the way through. No flushing, no adding, no nothing. Just let the plant tell you if it needs more or less.
The seedlings I just put in the system are running at EC 0.5/250PPM at the moment and look great. They are about 3 weeks old now I think and have been in the torture chamber just over 2 weeks.
Large droplets dont have time to evaporate much before they get to the roots and get absorbed. that means the EC doesnt change much as the water evaporates. Smaller droplets evaporate faster and can therefore see much larger EC increases by the time the roots get them absorbed. So smaller droplets can mean running at much lower EC levels then "normal".
I let the leaves tell me what EC to run at. If they are pale, I increase EC. If they are too dark or burning, lower EC.
I do not believe in changing EC levels or feeds as the plans grow other than what I just said. I use Jacks 321 hydro with no additives all the way through. No flushing, no adding, no nothing. Just let the plant tell you if it needs more or less.
The seedlings I just put in the system are running at EC 0.5/250PPM at the moment and look great. They are about 3 weeks old now I think and have been in the torture chamber just over 2 weeks.