NORML Opposes Lancet Journal in Muddled Dialogue on Psychosis and Cannabis

gb123

Well-Known Member
Last week, NORML issued a blistering response to the wide circulation of a study published in The Lancet Journal of Psychiatry on March 19th, 2019. The study, lead by Dr. Marta Di Forti and produced by Kings’s College (London), concluded that daily use of high THC cannabis (14 – 15% THC) causes psychosis. The study’s findings were rebutted by NORML (National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws), who decried the Lancet article as “premature at best, and sensational at worst” for claiming a “relationship exists between marijuana use and psychiatric disorders”.

The National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI) describes Psychosis as “disruptions to a person’s thoughts and perceptions that make it difficult for them to recognize what is real and what isn’t.” NAMI further labels the Psychosis as “confusing” and “frightening.”

Limited Data Means More Research Is Needed
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iStock / JohnAlexandr

Studies have indeed shown some relationship between cannabis and psychosis. NORML admits as much in a less bully-like publication, which directly states “there is limited data suggesting an association, albiet a minor one.” To say there is no relationship is wrong. There is a general consensus that psychosis can result from heavy usage of cannabis. Unsurprisingly, this finding is common to abuse of other substances, including alcohol, hallucinogens, and sedatives. Cannabis also seems to activate users’ latent predisposition toward psychosis. This sensitivity toward exhibiting psychosis is thought to be a function of environmental and/or genetic factors, above the direct influence of cannabis. Not all users with category-appropriate genetic and environmental factors actually experience psychosis when ingesting cannabis. Adolescents are particularly susceptible to the onset of psychosis induced by cannabis when they have those environmental and genetic factors. As is clear here and in other publications amassing known studies, there is a great deal of good research, however, the scientific community has not definitively concluded an understanding of the linkage on the link between psychosis and cannabis.

Cannabis research has been exploding in the United States since 2017. The truth is that we still don’t know what we don’t know about the complex interface between the body and the hundreds of chemicals and cannabinoids within the plant. Supporting or opposing the use of cannabis, at this point, becomes a question of seeing a glass as half-full or half-empty. Due to the changing landscape of what science tells us about cannabis, what appears to be a fortress today becomes an anthill tomorrow.

Breaking Down Dr. Di Forti’s Study
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iStock / Biserka Stojanovic

Regarding the Di Forti study: an interesting finding (“also highly questionable”, according to NORML) is that the incidence of psychosis varies with THC content. This consideration deserves a follow-up, due to the limitations of the initial study, but also due to the pressing relevance for the modern American market. There is a clear societal trend toward buying super-boosting THC strains. Di Forti, in her studies, considers “High THC” as “10-15% THC.” That’s laughable because strains in the 30% are commonplace, with 10-15% THC strains being average.

Unfortunately, Di Forti gathered inferior data, and so this study’s findings cannot be accepted. The study’s methodology cross-referenced subjects’ self-reported “type of cannabis” with Europe-wide data on the average THC found in cannabis in the subject’s country. Rather than enumerate the many problems with this approach, any cannabis user can spot Di Forti’s fundamental naivety and failure to employ logic in her 2018 interview with Rethink Mental Illness regarding this data:

“Participants gave very clear and detailed reporting about the type of cannabis they used, as the different types can be distinguished by smell, taste and of course their recreational effects. This was not unusual – many of us who have tried alcohol could distinguish a glass of whiskey from a glass of beer, even with our eyes closed.”

What are the types of cannabis? Did the study collect data on sativa vs. indica, the popular standard that does not reflect inter-species chemical variance and cannabinoid diversity? Di Forti’s self-reported data is garbage and not reliable, but it might still be correct based on the large number of subjects and the relatively good national data on average THC levels in countries individual markets.

Reading through this interview gives the impression that Di Forti is interested in good science but adopts the difficult position of an obstructionist, sticking stubbornly to fear-mongering in the absence of conclusive (and truly needed) evidence on either side.

As stated by NORML, The Lancet Di Forti study goes too far claiming “causality” between cannabis and psychosis. As demonstrated above, good studies have been providing data suggesting a complex, multi-directional link between psychosis and cannabis for a decade. Recently, studies like those from McGuire (‘18) and Boggs (‘18) have even shown the potential for Cannabidiol (CBD) to treat mental health disorders, including Schizophrenia. Until Federal regulation allows for public money to support the study of cannabinoids, many of the USA’s top experts, sequestered in top Academic Institutions, are barred from the robust laboratory study everyone can agree is needed.
 

odam2k

Well-Known Member
I don't get the bias against high thc strains. I will smoke enough to get high, and stop. If I have a high thc strain, that might be one joint, if it's a low thc strain, it might be 2 or even 3 joints... End result is, I smoke enough to get the thc I need...
 

QUAD BREATH

Well-Known Member
From David Malmo-Levine thread:

This “cannabis may/may not harm developing minds of young people” debate seems to me to be the heart of the matter. It seems intuitive to me that if it’s true that cannabis use doesn’t make kids stupid or crazy, then cannabis can be regulated like coffee beans and young people can enjoy the benefits of legalization and poor people can participate in the economy.

Considering that this question is the heart of the matter, a close look at the evidence is required. (6)

Chronologically:

1. British Medical Journal: "Cannabis Schizophrenia – does it exist?"

David H. Marjot

“The incidence and prevalence of patients showing schizophrenic syndromes are unchanged or have even fallen while the use of cannabis has increased enormously. We must conclude that either previous schizophrenic illnesses have become much less common or that cannabis schizophrenia is rare and perhaps it may not even exist.”

21 December 2002 (7)

2. Drug Alcohol Dependence: "Testing hypotheses about the relationship between cannabis use and psychosis."

Degenhardt L, Hall W, Lynskey M.

"There was a steep rise in the prevalence of cannabis use in Australia over the past 30 years and a corresponding decrease in the age of initiation of cannabis use. There was no evidence of a significant increase in the incidence of schizophrenia over the past 30 years."

2003 Jul 20;71(1):37-48. (8)

3. British Journal of Psychiatry: "Causal association between cannabis and psychosis: examination of the evidence."

Arseneault, Cannon, Witton, Murray

"In the largest study of its kind so far, we have shown that recreational cannabis users do not release significant amounts of dopamine from an oral THC dose equivalent to a standard cannabis cigarette. This result challenges current models of striatal dopamine release as the mechanism mediating cannabis as risk factor for schizophrenia."

2004 Feb; 184: 110-7 (9)

4. The Lancet: "Psychological and social sequelae of cannabis and other illicit drug use by young people: a systematic review of longitudinal, general population studies"

John Macleod, Rachel Oakes, Alex Copello, Ilana Crome, Matthias Egger, Mathew Hickman, Thomas Oppenkowski, Helen Stokes-Lampard, George Davey Smith

"Cannabis use appears to have increased substantially amongst young people over the past 30 years, from around 10% reporting ever use in 1969–70, to around 50% reporting ever using in 2001, in Britain and Sweden. If the relation between use and schizophrenia were truly causal and if the relative risk was around five-fold then the incidence of schizophrenia should have more than doubled since 1970. However population trends in schizophrenia incidence suggest that incidence has either been stable or slightly decreased over the relevant time period.”

Vol. 363 • May 15, 2004 • p. 1585 (10)

5. Schizophrenia Research: "Assessing the impact of cannabis use on trends in diagnosed schizophrenia in the United Kingdom from 1996 to 2005"

Martin Frisher, Ilana Crome, Orsolina Martino, Peter Croft

The expected rise in diagnoses of schizophrenia and psychoses did not occur over a 10 year period. This study does not therefore support the specific causal link between cannabis use and the incidence of psychotic disorders based on the 3 assumptions described in the Introduction. This concurs with other reports indicating that increases in population cannabis use have not been followed by increases in psychotic incidence (Macleod et al., 2006; Arsenault et al., 2004; Rey and Tennant, 2002)."

2009 (11)

6. Psychological Medicine: "Prospective Study of Cannabis Use in Adolescents at Clinical High-Risk for Psychosis: Impact on Conversion to Psychosis and Functional Outcome"

Andrea M. Auther, Danielle McLaughlin, Ricardo Carrión, Pradeep Nagachandran, Christoph Correll, Barbara A. Cornblatt

"The current data do not support low to moderate lifetime cannabis use to be a major contributor to psychosis or poor social and role functioning in high-risk youth."

2012 (12)

7. PLoS One: "Incidence of schizophrenia and other psychoses in England, 1950-2009: a systematic review and meta-analyses."

Kirkbride JB, Errazuriz A, Croudace TJ, Morgan C, Jackson D, Boydell J, Murray RM, Jones PB

"We found no evidence to support an overall change in the incidence of psychotic disorder over time, though diagnostic shifts (away from schizophrenia) were reported."
 

odam2k

Well-Known Member
I went through a horrible time in my life about 6 years ago when I lost two family members to CO poisoning, combined with being on way too many pharma prescriptions, and came close to taking my own life. I was lucky my wife called 911, and I was admitted to a hospital for a three day psych eval. During this time, I met with a psychiatrist twice, for about 15 minutes each AT MOST.

His conclusion as to why I nearly offed myself? It was the marijuana I was smoking. It was the root of all my problems... Because I was desperate, I followed his advice and quit smoking pot. Two weeks later, it almost happened again, but this time, both my wife and I knew that going back to the hospital wasn't going to solve my problem...

I was so messed up on pharma that I couldn't complete a sentence, gave up trying to follow where I was or what I was doing... I was a basket case...

It was right at this time that I stumbled upon a pain doctor that believed in medical pot, and with the help of the pot (and the doctor), I quit all the opiates, sleeping pills, antidepressants, anti-anxiety, etc drugs.

Now, my mind is sharp again, my back pain is bearable (not gone completely, but that's ok), I can at least function, although I'll be on disability for the foreseeable future, at least I can participate in life again, all thanks to pot...

By the way, my mental health has improved 100%, and not once have I felt any desire to harm myself, in fact, I look forward to every day!

BTW, I've been smoking pot for roughly 45 years, and had NEVER been through anything like this before...
 

Egzoset

Well-Known Member
Salutations,

Each time it's much the same: they attack, we defend. Meanwhile spotlights still fail to shead light on some elephant staying in a room called "Cultural Genocide", e.g. where the cannabis-based sub-cultures get replaced by 1 single artificial substitute designed in the offices of self-serving Liberals as Trudeau and Blair, etc., etc.

Last year a famous "free-the-beer" cause was lost because our public institutions have been taken over by bigot predatory prohibitionists installed everywhere including the highest levels of "justice". It's become a "cellular" war opposing invisible individuals to the resources of a country serving socio-toxic parasites who's main source of power actually resides at the United Nations.

So, it turns out i yet have to read any echo returns of the recent 62nd CND event held last month in Vienna/Austria.

Go wonder!...

Good day, have fun!! :peace:
 

GrowRock

Well-Known Member
I went through a horrible time in my life about 6 years ago when I lost two family members to CO poisoning, combined with being on way too many pharma prescriptions, and came close to taking my own life. I was lucky my wife called 911, and I was admitted to a hospital for a three day psych eval. During this time, I met with a psychiatrist twice, for about 15 minutes each AT MOST.

His conclusion as to why I nearly offed myself? It was the marijuana I was smoking. It was the root of all my problems... Because I was desperate, I followed his advice and quit smoking pot. Two weeks later, it almost happened again, but this time, both my wife and I knew that going back to the hospital wasn't going to solve my problem...

I was so messed up on pharma that I couldn't complete a sentence, gave up trying to follow where I was or what I was doing... I was a basket case...

It was right at this time that I stumbled upon a pain doctor that believed in medical pot, and with the help of the pot (and the doctor), I quit all the opiates, sleeping pills, antidepressants, anti-anxiety, etc drugs.

Now, my mind is sharp again, my back pain is bearable (not gone completely, but that's ok), I can at least function, although I'll be on disability for the foreseeable future, at least I can participate in life again, all thanks to pot...

By the way, my mental health has improved 100%, and not once have I felt any desire to harm myself, in fact, I look forward to every day!

BTW, I've been smoking pot for roughly 45 years, and had NEVER been through anything like this before...
I have been down the same road dealing with mental illness and our Canadian health system. The crazy thing is they allow gp’s to prescribe anti anxiety, anti-depressants, bpd meds etc mean while they have no clue or proper training in mental illness. I was prescribed anti depressants and sleeping pills about 10 years ago. I was on them for about a year when thoughts of suicide kept cripping into my mind. I had never had suicudal thoughts before taking these medications that my GP prescribed. He also told me the weed I was using was the root of all my problems. Meanwhile 10 years later of using mmj to treat my BPD and am having no suicidal thoughts and quit all pharma they had me on.

My opinion on psychosis and schizophrenia and there relationship to cannabis use are: if you are predispositioned to get these disorders already then cannabis use may just bring the onset on at a younger age.
 

QUAD BREATH

Well-Known Member
I went through a horrible time in my life about 6 years ago when I lost two family members to CO poisoning, combined with being on way too many pharma prescriptions, and came close to taking my own life. I was lucky my wife called 911, and I was admitted to a hospital for a three day psych eval. During this time, I met with a psychiatrist twice, for about 15 minutes each AT MOST.

His conclusion as to why I nearly offed myself? It was the marijuana I was smoking. It was the root of all my problems... Because I was desperate, I followed his advice and quit smoking pot. Two weeks later, it almost happened again, but this time, both my wife and I knew that going back to the hospital wasn't going to solve my problem...

I was so messed up on pharma that I couldn't complete a sentence, gave up trying to follow where I was or what I was doing... I was a basket case...

It was right at this time that I stumbled upon a pain doctor that believed in medical pot, and with the help of the pot (and the doctor), I quit all the opiates, sleeping pills, antidepressants, anti-anxiety, etc drugs.

Now, my mind is sharp again, my back pain is bearable (not gone completely, but that's ok), I can at least function, although I'll be on disability for the foreseeable future, at least I can participate in life again, all thanks to pot...

By the way, my mental health has improved 100%, and not once have I felt any desire to harm myself, in fact, I look forward to every day!

I'm just curious if you or @GrowRock have tried any other natural medicines to help alleviate depression. More specifically, psilocybe cubensis AKA magic mushrooms ?

John Hopkins University:
https://hopkinspsychedelic.org/

And I don't mean taking them just to party with but rather using them, as a tool, in a proper "set and setting".
 

odam2k

Well-Known Member
I'm just curious if you or @GrowRock have tried any other natural medicines to help alleviate depression. More specifically, psilocybe cubensis AKA magic mushrooms ?

John Hopkins University:
https://hopkinspsychedelic.org/

And I don't mean taking them just to party with but rather using them, as a tool, in a proper "set and setting".
I have not, although when I was 19, I spent 6 weeks camped in the shroom fields in Ft Langley BC, sleeping under a train bridge, plenty of rain, and never caught a cold :)
 

GrowRock

Well-Known Member
I'm just curious if you or @GrowRock have tried any other natural medicines to help alleviate depression. More specifically, psilocybe cubensis AKA magic mushrooms ?

John Hopkins University:
https://hopkinspsychedelic.org/

And I don't mean taking them just to party with but rather using them, as a tool, in a proper "set and setting".
I have looked into this but am apprehensive just from past experiences. I have also looked into and tried lots of other natural health remedies non really seemed to help although I still make smoothes with lots of frozen greens. :weed:
 

odam2k

Well-Known Member
I'm just curious if you or @GrowRock have tried any other natural medicines to help alleviate depression.
Actually, funny thing is, I never suffered from depression until the doctor started prescribing anti-depressants for my diabetic neuropathy... The warnings right on the containers said "may cause thoughts of suicide"... and yep, they sure did....

For the most part, my depression is gone, 100%, although I still have very high levels of anxiety, mostly about going out... anywhere... or having something scheduled <shudder>
 
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