Noam Chomsky, good or evil?

medicineman

New Member
Chomsky on politics:

Chomsky has stated that his "personal visions are fairly traditional anarchist ones, with origins in The Enlightenment and classical liberalism"[59] and he has praised libertarian socialism.[60] He is a sympathizer of anarcho-syndicalism[61] and a member of the IWW union.[62] He has published a book on anarchism titled, "Chomsky on Anarchism", which was published by the anarchist book collective, AK Press, in 2006. Noam Chomsky has been engaged in political activism all of his adult life and expressed opinions on politics and world events which are widely cited, publicized and discussed. Chomsky has in turn argued that his views are those which the powerful do not want to hear, and for this reason he is considered an American political dissident. Some highlights of his political views:

  • Power, unless justified, is inherently illegitimate. The burden of proof is on those in authority to demonstrate why their elevated position is justified. If this burden can't be met, the authority in question should be dismantled. Authority for its own sake is inherently unjustified. An example of a legitimate authority is that exerted by an adult to prevent a young child from wandering into traffic.[63]
  • That there isn't much difference between slavery, and renting one's self to an owner, or "wage slavery." He feels that it is an attack on personal integrity that destroys and undermines our freedoms. He holds workers should own and control their own workplace, a view held (as he notes) by the Lowell Mill Girls.[64]
  • Very strong criticisms of the foreign policy of the United States. Specifically, he claims double standards in a foreign policy preaching democracy and freedom for all, while promoting, supporting and allying itself with non-democratic and repressive organizations and states such as Chile under Augusto Pinochet, and argues that this results in massive human rights violations. He often argues that America's intervention in foreign nations, including the secret aid given to the Contras in Nicaragua, an event of which he has been very critical, fits any standard description of terrorism.[65]
  • He has opposed the U.S. global "war on drugs", claiming its language to be misleading, and referring to it as "the war on certain drugs." He favors education and prevention rather than military or police action as a means of reducing drug use.[67] In an interview in 1999, Chomsky argued that, whereas crops such as tobacco receive no mention in governmental exposition, other non-profitable crops, such as marijuana, are specifically targeted because of the effect achieved by persecuting the poor:[68] He has stated:
US domestic drug policy does not carry out its stated goals, and policymakers are well aware of that. If it isn't about reducing substance abuse, what is it about? It is reasonably clear, both from current actions and the historical record, that substances tend to be criminalized when they are associated with the so-called dangerous classes, that the criminalization of certain substances is a technique of social control.[69]
  • Critical of the American capitalist system and big business, he describes himself as a libertarian socialist who sympathizes with anarcho-syndicalism and is also critical of Leninist branches of socialism. He also believes that libertarian socialist values exemplify the rational and morally consistent extension of original unreconstructed classical liberal and radical humanist ideas to an industrial context. Specifically he believes that society should be highly organized and based on democratic control of communities and work places. He believes that the radical humanist ideas of his two major influences, Bertrand Russell and John Dewey, were "rooted in the Enlightenment and classical liberalism, and retain their revolutionary character."[70]
  • Chomsky has stated that he believes the United States remains the "greatest country in the world",[71] a comment that he later clarified by saying, "Evaluating countries is senseless and I would never put things in those terms, but that some of America's advances, particularly in the area of free speech, that have been achieved by centuries of popular struggle, are to be admired."[72] He has also said "In many respects, the United States is the freest country in the world. I don't just mean in terms of limits on state coercion, though that's true too, but also in terms of individual relations. The United States comes closer to classlessness in terms of interpersonal relations than virtually any society."[73]
  • Chomsky objects to the criticism that anarchism is inconsistent with support for government welfare, stating in part:
One can, of course, take the position that we don't care about the problems people face today, and want to think about a possible tomorrow. OK, but then don't pretend to have any interest in human beings and their fate, and stay in the seminar room and intellectual coffee house with other privileged people. Or one can take a much more humane position: I want to work, today, to build a better society for tomorrow -- the classical anarchist position, quite different from the slogans in the question. That's exactly right, and it leads directly to support for the people facing problems today: for enforcement of health and safety regulation, provision of national health insurance, support systems for people who need them, etc. That is not a sufficient condition for organizing for a different and better future, but it is a necessary condition. Anything else will receive the well-merited contempt of people who do not have the luxury to disregard the circumstances in which they live, and try to survive.[74]
  • According to Chomsky: "I'm a boring speaker and I like it that way…. I doubt that people are attracted to whatever the persona is…. People are interested in the issues, and they're interested in the issues because they are important."[75] "We don't want to be swayed by superficial eloquence, by emotion and so on."[76]
  • He holds views that can be summarized as anti-war but not strictly pacifist. He prominently opposed the Vietnam War and most other wars in his lifetime. He expressed these views through a variety of protest methods, such as withholding taxes and peace walks. He published a number of articles about the war in Vietnam, including "The Responsibility of Intellectuals". However, he maintains that U.S. involvement in World War II was probably justified, with the caveat that a preferable outcome would have been to end or prevent the war through earlier diplomacy. In particular, he believes that the dropping of nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were "among the most unspeakable crimes in history".[77]
  • He has a broad view of free-speech rights, especially in the mass media; he opposes censorship and refuses to take legal action against those who may have libeled him.[78]
  • He has made major criticisms of Israel and supporters of Israel, arguing that "supporters of Israel are in reality supporters of its moral degeneration and probable ultimate destruction", and that "Israel's very clear choice of expansion over security may well lead to that consequence"[79]
Chomsky has frequently stated that there is no connection between his work in linguistics and his political views, and is generally critical of the idea that competent discussion of political topics requires expert knowledge in academic fields. In a 1969 interview, he said regarding the connection between his politics and his work in linguistics:



"I still feel myself that there is a kind of tenuous connection. I would not want to overstate it but I think it means something to me at least. I think that anyone's political ideas or their ideas of social organization must be rooted ultimately in some concept of human nature and human needs". (New Left Review, 57, Sept. – Oct. 1969, p. 21)

Sounds like a modified libertarian to me, hell, I could be this kind of libertarian, in fact I am. I like this guy. Just watched a speech he gave, very impressive. He actually knows what the fuck is happening. You libertarians would be well suited to check him out.
 

ilkhan

Well-Known Member
Most of his stuff is OK.
I disagree with him on private property rights.
As well as his use of force policy.
He is perfectly willing to extract at gunpoint property that is not his to take.
 

stevenr

Member
He is perfectly willing to extract at gunpoint property that is not his to take.

The contracts that define ownership of a corporation are clear, but what about the roads, sewer, water that allow it to prosper? More, what of the air and water---how do we capitalize resources that move onto others' property?
Distinguishing between human rights and property rights is not easy, while relying on civic organizations.
 

Wavels

Well-Known Member
Good old Noam is a virulent anti semite and he aids and abets holocaust deniers....I am not a fan!
 

natrone23

Well-Known Member
Do you realize he's Jewish lol



He describes his family as living in a sort of "Jewish ghetto," split into a "Yiddish side" and "Hebrew side," with his family aligning with the latter and bringing him up "immersed in Hebrew culture and literature." Chomsky also describes tensions he personally experienced with Irish Catholics and German Catholics and anti-semitism in the mid-1930s. He recalls German-American "Beer parties" celebrating the fall of Paris to the Nazis [6]. In a discussion of the irony of his staying in the 1980s in a Jesuit House in Central America, Chomsky explained that during his childhood, "We were the only Jewish family around. I grew up with a visceral fear of Catholics. They're the people who beat you up on your way to school. So I knew when they came out of that building down the street, which was the Jesuit school, they were raving anti-Semites. So childhood memories took a long time to overcome
 

Wavels

Well-Known Member
surely you have an example of his anti-semitism?

As per you request.




Chomsky repeats every distortion and libel directed against the Jewish state that has appeared in Arab, Western, and 'pro—peace' Israeli publications, to which he adds some conspiracy theories of his own devising. Chomsky portrays Israel as a racist state that has driven the Palestinian Arabs from their homes, seized their land, reduced them to slavery, tortured and murdered them and discriminated against them in every imaginable way. In his vision, Israel is an agent of American imperialism, doing the U.S.'s dirty work for it in the Middle East and around the world.



Werner Cohn points out in his trenchant study Partners in Hate: Noam Chomsky and the Holocaust Deniers, most of the sources cited by Chomsky are very biased against Israel and Zionism.

Excerpts from:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/01/the_chomsky_file.html
 

natrone23

Well-Known Member
As per you request.




Chomsky repeats every distortion and libel directed against the Jewish state that has appeared in Arab, Western, and 'pro—peace' Israeli publications, to which he adds some conspiracy theories of his own devising. Chomsky portrays Israel as a racist state that has driven the Palestinian Arabs from their homes, seized their land, reduced them to slavery, tortured and murdered them and discriminated against them in every imaginable way. In his vision, Israel is an agent of American imperialism, doing the U.S.'s dirty work for it in the Middle East and around the world.



Werner Cohn points out in his trenchant study Partners in Hate: Noam Chomsky and the Holocaust Deniers, most of the sources cited by Chomsky are very biased against Israel and Zionism.

Excerpts from:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/01/the_chomsky_file.html

I don't see any anti-semitism. He disagrees with Israeli policy. Thats not Anti-semitism


Do you have quotes by Noam chomsky.


I saw no anti semitic comments by Noam Chomsky in that article.


Nothing but dubious connections ala Glen Beck Chalkboard style

Her is an example

Chomsky ends his Fateful Triangle by embracing the notion of a "Samson complex." He says that the greatest trouble spot on earth, barring none, is the conflict between Israel and the Arabs. (78) The government and people of the Zionist state, he says, are basing themselves on "the genocidal texts of the Bible" (79) and may well decide to commit national suicide and final destruction of the planet by plunging the world into nuclear war. "This 'Samson complex' is not something to be taken lightly.'" (80)



Chomsky's notion of a "Samson complex," much like that of Howard Stein which we encountered earlier, is in many ways close to the medieval blood-libel against the Jewish people. Stein and Chomsky suggest, partly in so many words and partly by implication, that Jews are exceedingly dangerous beings, that they lack the human qualities of reason and mercy, and that they are possessed by a blind hatred of non-Jewish mankind. Even one of Chomsky's supporters found this Samson doctrine too extreme to swallow. (81)




Chomsky didn't suggest anything of the sorts


The author came up with all that anti-semtiic bullshit himself
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
surely you have an example of his anti-semitism?
Chomsky is a well know and avowed anti-Semite despite being Jewish. If you don't know this you shouldn't be involved in this conversation.

I don't know if he is good or evil but I do believe he is mentally ill.

There is a common theme in todays culture in which people simply have unreasonable confidence in their own ideas. Chomsky is one such example.

Comparing the need to work with being a slave is intellectually childish and I will explain why.

One of the laws of nature is that the World spontaneously goes from a state of order to a state of chaos. To maintain order, work must be done.

Think of ancient ruins that are discovered. 100% of the time they are overgrown with weeds and degraded in many ways. This is because there is nobody there to perform the work required to maintain order.

So, we all must work. Now what type of work we do is subject to many things. Some of us inherit money which is the stored work product of our predecessors. Some start business' and others perform the labor necessary to keep those business' running.

The only difference between the last two is that the business owner is a more effective and more efficient work producer than the guy who must rely on his back.

There are many examples of people who's work is more or less effective or "valuable" than others. Clearly, the product of a doctor is more valuable than the product of a man who moves rocks even though his work is less physically demanding. So too, the business owner's work is more valuable than the worker even if less physically demanding.

The second major flaw in this comparison is that the type of work we do is largely determined by our choices. In fact, if one could choose not to work at all if they so desired, and many do. Slaves, do not have any of those choices. If a worker becomes unhappy at his place of employment, he is free to seek other employment or to start his own business, slaves have no such freedom.

To suggest that someone is a slave because they don't have the luxury of living high on the hog while receiving a free ride in life is silly.
 

medicineman

New Member
The fact that a man must work to survive is indicative of a type of slavery, wage slavery. What Chomsky is saying is that there are masters and slaves in a capitalist society. Can you really deny this. The inequities in a capitalist system are not to be taken lightly. Some are gifted with the inane capability to use others for their own gain. Chomsky (and I) do not consider this to be a fair system, especially when predecessors wealth is taken into account. The old masters and slaves system is alive and well in the capitalism system. One must actually take an objective view to see the inequities. If one is either master or slave, their views will be subjective. The objective view is to recognize this fact, and as Chomsky postulates, do something to make the system more palatable for all.
 

jeff f

New Member
The fact that a man must work to survive is indicative of a type of slavery, wage slavery. What Chomsky is saying is that there are masters and slaves in a capitalist society. Can you really deny this. The inequities in a capitalist system are not to be taken lightly. Some are gifted with the inane capability to use others for their own gain. Chomsky (and I) do not consider this to be a fair system, especially when predecessors wealth is taken into account. The old masters and slaves system is alive and well in the capitalism system. One must actually take an objective view to see the inequities. If one is either master or slave, their views will be subjective. The objective view is to recognize this fact, and as Chomsky postulates, do something to make the system more palatable for all.
here is the problem with your whole outlook. you base everything on "theory". reality tells you that people of this country our more prosperous in every way measurable than any other country in the world. we live better, eat better, have more property, are more charitable than any other previous society. so in theory, capitalists are pigs. in reality, we are the most prosperous people in the history of the world. and our prosperity isnt based on stealing from other people. its based on freedom and hard work.
 

medicineman

New Member
here is the problem with your whole outlook. you base everything on "theory". reality tells you that people of this country our more prosperous in every way measurable than any other country in the world. we live better, eat better, have more property, are more charitable than any other previous society. so in theory, capitalists are pigs. in reality, we are the most prosperous people in the history of the world. and our prosperity isnt based on stealing from other people. its based on freedom and hard work.
I do agree with the freedom thingy, (I actually fought for it, your's also). Now about the freedom to change jobs, move up the ladder and all that Bull, It may have used to be easier, but in this society, unless you have a MA from Harvard, or are related, both which are rather in Elite territory, your chances of "moving up the ladder" are really limited. Thats the first obstacle, now for the second:Clinton and Bush were responsible for hemoraging, so many jobs, there are very little good jobs left. US auto workers have been thrashed, made to give back wages and benefits so their jobs are shit. Most workers make less than 10 bucks an hour, with 0 benefits, where is the incentive to work harder? I belive in innovation and clever managing of ones carreer, but there are not many "carreers" to go around, even the shit jobs are drying up. I personally only earned a 2 year college degree, (while working two jobs and raising a family), not enough to really help me into a carreer, but I went the only way I knew to make enough money to actually live and raise a family, I went union. Union jobs actually paid me enough to live a moderate lower middle class life. With construction shut down by the recession, those opportunities have dried up also. I'm just thankful that I got to retire with a couple a bucks, a small pension and my blessed SS. Please show me where I'm lying.
 

jeff f

New Member
I do agree with the freedom thingy, (I actually fought for it, your's also). Now about the freedom to change jobs, move up the ladder and all that Bull, It may have used to be easier, but in this society, unless you have a MA from Harvard, or are related, both which are rather in Elite territory, your chances of "moving up the ladder" are really limited. Thats the first obstacle, now for the second:Clinton and Bush were responsible for hemoraging, so many jobs, there are very little good jobs left. US auto workers have been thrashed, made to give back wages and benefits so their jobs are shit. Most workers make less than 10 bucks an hour, with 0 benefits, where is the incentive to work harder? I belive in innovation and clever managing of ones carreer, but there are not many "carreers" to go around, even the shit jobs are drying up. I personally only earned a 2 year college degree, (while working two jobs and raising a family), not enough to really help me into a carreer, but I went the only way I knew to make enough money to actually live and raise a family, I went union. Union jobs actually paid me enough to live a moderate lower middle class life. With construction shut down by the recession, those opportunities have dried up also. I'm just thankful that I got to retire with a couple a bucks, a small pension and my blessed SS. Please show me where I'm lying.
not saying you are lyin at all. i have seen both ends of the ladder. been through 2 divorces. yes i already know, i am stupid. anyway, been rich, been poor. my reality is everyone i know has grown up with more than there parents had. better jobs, better houses, better food, just about everything better. my point is, america still is a place where you can improve your lot. hard work and a little luck, will take you a long way toward reaching your goals that YOU set. other govts limit what the "common folk" can achieved. thats not the case in america....yet. if bho gets his way, kiss that goodbye. it wont matter how hard you work or if you even work, the outcomes will be the same, same healthcoverage, same union wage, same cars...and on and on.

i dont want to live in a country like that. i want hard working people to succeed. as they succeed they will take care of the less fortunate by providing jobs, services, etc.

then you have the folks who just want to get in line for more guvment cheese. those people should be discouraged because sucking at the gvt teat ruins motivation and lives. handouts encourage uselessness.
 

medicineman

New Member
not saying you are lyin at all. i have seen both ends of the ladder. been through 2 divorces. yes i already know, i am stupid. anyway, been rich, been poor. my reality is everyone i know has grown up with more than there parents had. better jobs, better houses, better food, just about everything better. my point is, america still is a place where you can improve your lot. hard work and a little luck, will take you a long way toward reaching your goals that YOU set. other govts limit what the "common folk" can achieved. thats not the case in america....yet. if bho gets his way, kiss that goodbye. it wont matter how hard you work or if you even work, the outcomes will be the same, same healthcoverage, same union wage, same cars...and on and on.

i dont want to live in a country like that. i want hard working people to succeed. as they succeed they will take care of the less fortunate by providing jobs, services, etc.

then you have the folks who just want to get in line for more guvment cheese. those people should be discouraged because sucking at the gvt teat ruins motivation and lives. handouts encourage uselessness.
Look, All I ask is provide well paying jobs for all that are willing to work. Fuck slackers, do nothing, get nothing. Those that are actually incapable should be offered some living expenses. If we took 50% ot the top 1%s money, wee could provide a lot of jobs. The solar panel industry could support a million plus. Government could provide low or no interest loans to homeowners to install a solar system, that alone would remove millions of gallons of hydrocarbon fuel from being used.
 

jeff f

New Member
Look, All I ask is provide well paying jobs for all that are willing to work. Fuck slackers, do nothing, get nothing. Those that are actually incapable should be offered some living expenses. If we took 50% ot the top 1%s money, wee could provide a lot of jobs. The solar panel industry could support a million plus. Government could provide low or no interest loans to homeowners to install a solar system, that alone would remove millions of gallons of hydrocarbon fuel from being used.
now you are not lying, you are just talking giberish ;-) solar panels? wind mills? common dude. make nuclear energy. empoly millions, make cheap, safe, clean power. that is hat is going to fuel high paying jobs. not chasing a bunch of hocus pocus global warming that isnt even real. its foolishness. the market will decide the future if left alone. instead the smartest people in the room (sarcasm) are gonna "figure out" how to employ people? yes, the same way they kept the unemplyement rate at 8%.
 
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