No fillibuster for Repukes.Talks move forward

Jack*Herrer420 · Nov 24, 2009

SmokeyMcChokey said:
how do you know what the truth is until you have concrete proof? They WILL tell you whatever you want to hear be it true or not. That sounds like an awful lot of wasted funds from a guy so concerned about deficit. Just saying jack for that amount of expense why not just pop em in the field to disrupt activities instead of interrogating for years to chase semi fruitless claims. BTW nearly 80% of the "detainees" were not actually captured by US forces rather turned over to us by which ever local sheik or warlord had a grudge against them. interesting huh.

We aren't really detaining that many people compared to the people we have killed. For the ones we do capture, isn't it worth it to try and get information that can save somebodys life? I would agree that most of what they tell us is false, but we are also getting real information that has helped us locate different individuals and organizations.
Your second statement shows how they feel what we are doing is right. Muslims want to live in peace just as much as anyone else. If they can turn somebody in that is terrorizing their own people, they will do so in a heartbeat. Most muslims don't hate America, they hate wars. I have mixed feelings on the war, but I understand that no one has invaded the middle east with success. It is not only us that are causing problems for them, the terrorists are causing just as many problems as we are. They don't mind using children for protection or as a bomb, and their people are sick of it. If turning over extremists means that it will stop us from being there, they will do it every time.

Jack*Herrer420 · Nov 24, 2009

SmokeyMcChokey said:
also thats a pretty ignorant claim that their home is a hell hole. Have you LIVED there and been acclamated to their customs? Speaking anthropologically you could say america is a hell hole from their point of view. Once again not condoning any terroristic or treasonous activityjust saying that unless you...... holy shit side note if any one is watching HBO robin williams just did an "anonymous" (by semi-blurring his face) commercial advocating the legalization of pot. He said "I live here and see fields of marijuana growing and creating revenue. Why not just legaize it? Have you ever seen some one say Im going to beat your ass (raises one fist as if to hit you and pretend tokes a joint in the other hand all the while semi choking.) then laughs and says just legalize the use already." more or less a quote

I spent over 17 months in that HELL HOLE, so I don't have a problem calling it so.

SmokeyMcChokey · Nov 24, 2009

Jack*Herrer420 said:
We aren't really detaining that many people compared to the people we have killed. For the ones we do capture, isn't it worth it to try and get information that can save somebodys life? I would agree that most of what they tell us is false, but we are also getting real information that has helped us locate different individuals and organizations.
Your second statement shows how they feel what we are doing is right. Muslims want to live in peace just as much as anyone else. If they can turn somebody in that is terrorizing their own people, they will do so in a heartbeat. Most muslims don't hate America, they hate wars. I have mixed feelings on the war, but I understand that no one has invaded the middle east with success. It is not only us that are causing problems for them, the terrorists are causing just as many problems as we are. They don't mind using children for protection or as a bomb, and their people are sick of it. If turning over extremists means that it will stop us from being there, they will do it every time.

well put jack and i appreciate your service for our country! Of course its not just america. It's influencesfrom any industrialized nation that has exerted influence in the region. simply because they have the "promise land" and all of the oil fields. as long as others desire what they have and others exert force to gain control of those desires, they will be hated. Its unfortunate that we are the fore runners though. I always hoped that Great Britian would be first seeing as how they tried just about every one on the earth at one point in time or the other but hey shit happens huh.
edit: i still dont advocate torture! Being drowned isnt fun and i wouldnt want to be water boarded so why should I waterboard others. just goin on my golden rule.

Jack*Herrer420 · Nov 24, 2009

SmokeyMcChokey said:
well put jack and i appreciate your service for our country! Of course its not just america. It's influencesfrom any industrialized nation that has exerted influence in the region. simply because they have the "promise land" and all of the oil fields. as long as others desire what they have and others exert force to gain control of those desires, they will be hated. Its unfortunate that we are the fore runners though. I always hoped that Great Britian would be first seeing as how they tried just about every one on the earth at one point in time or the other but hey shit happens huh.
edit: i still dont advocate torture! Being drowned isnt fun and i wouldnt want to be water boarded so why should I waterboard others. just goin on my golden rule.

Wouldn't it be nice if Russia went back there, or China or something. Then we could leave and have them deal with it. I think we're going to be the first ones on the totum pole until somebody else goes there, and starts even more shit. Maybe we should try to piss off Russia by telling them Osama Bin Laden thinks their pussies, and that if they don't go back, they will be looked at as pussies by the rest of the world.

abe23 · Nov 24, 2009

I'm all for holding politicians accountable be they republicans or democrats. I also think too many of the tea party people were cheerleading for the administration during the bush/cheney years for them to be credible. That's the only reason I brought those two assholes up in the first place by the way. We now have a new administration and I think it's only fair to give them chance to at least up the mess of the previous (republican) management. The knee-jerk criticism of anything obama does is pretty silly, but it really gets to me when people start talking about revolution and implicitly threaten violence (if you don't think this is happening, tune in to am radio sometime). We have a political system with winners and losers. When you lose you can't just accuse the other guy of being a socialist and pretend that you have a right to 'resist tyranny'. We put up with bush for 8 years, not because we liked it but because he won and nobody was talking of revolution. again, the hypocrisy is what bothers me.
And this hypocrisy is reaching epic proportions lately with the constant "shit or get off the pot" comments regarding afghanistan or the unfair criticism of prosecuting terrorists in civilian courts (which has been done for years, including during the bush years), not to mention the healthcare mess. Just give the man a chance and if his policies are really as bad as you say, he will be voted out of office. He'll be up for reelection soon enough...
And frankly, are we really supposed to be more afraid of a bunch of morons plotting in a cave than we were of the nazis or the soviets with the nuclear missiles? Don't get me wrong, I am fully aware of the threat that these people pose and I think preventing them from getting wmds should be our biggest priority. I'm just saying that we shouldn't be so afraid of these idiots that we completely abandon our values. Healthcare wasn't really a political issue at the time of the revolution, but torture and arbitrary detention were and if you read the declaration of independence or the bill of rights, it's pretty clear on which side of that issue the people who founded this country stood.

OregonMeds · Nov 24, 2009

Jack*Herrer420 said:
They are probably better off in an American detention center then they are in the hell hole they call a home.

Same exact thing the slave masters said about their slaves. I suppose it would be good for their health to work 16 hour days in some prison sweatshop too.

SmokeyMcChokey · Nov 24, 2009

Jack*Herrer420 said:
Wouldn't it be nice if Russia went back there, or China or something. Then we could leave and have them deal with it. I think we're going to be the first ones on the totum pole until somebody else goes there, and starts even more shit. Maybe we should try to piss off Russia by telling them Osama Bin Laden thinks their pussies, and that if they don't go back, they will be looked at as pussies by the rest of the world.

you mean tell them that every one really thinks they are failures and they should just go ahead an take over for us. You know that is the most sensible plan for the war i have been presented yet!

Jack*Herrer420 · Nov 25, 2009

abe23 said:
I'm all for holding politicians accountable be they republicans or democrats. I also think too many of the tea party people were cheerleading for the administration during the bush/cheney years for them to be credible. That's the only reason I brought those two assholes up in the first place by the way.
We now have a new administration and I think it's only fair to give them chance to at least up the mess of the previous (republican) management. The knee-jerk criticism of anything obama does is pretty silly, but it really gets to me when people start talking about revolution and implicitly threaten violence (if you don't think this is happening, tune in to am radio sometime). We have a political system with winners and losers. When you lose you can't just accuse the other guy of being a socialist and pretend that you have a right to 'resist tyranny'. We put up with bush for 8 years, not because we liked it but because he won and nobody was talking of revolution. again, the hypocrisy is what bothers me.
And this hypocrisy is reaching epic proportions lately with the constant "shit or get off the pot" comments regarding afghanistan or the unfair criticism of prosecuting terrorists in civilian courts (which has been done for years, including during the bush years), not to mention the healthcare mess. Just give the man a chance and if his policies are really as bad as you say, he will be voted out of office. He'll be up for reelection soon enough...
And frankly, are we really supposed to be more afraid of a bunch of morons plotting in a cave than we were of the nazis or the soviets with the nuclear missiles? Don't get me wrong, I am fully aware of the threat that these people pose and I think preventing them from getting wmds should be our biggest priority. I'm just saying that we shouldn't be so afraid of these idiots that we completely abandon our values. Healthcare wasn't really a political issue at the time of the revolution, but torture and arbitrary detention were and if you read the declaration of independence or the bill of rights, it's pretty clear on which side of that issue the people who founded this country stood.

You can't just say somebody isn't credible because you don't agree with them. Do you not remember all of the people calling Bush a nazi, or how he should be put on trial for war crimes? It's not like people just started complaining about our president. This has been going on since the beginning.
Maybe if Obama didn't triple the deficit, you might have a point. Are we supposed to just sit back and wait until this country is completely destroyed before we do anything? Obama has done nothing to fix the mess we are in, instead he and the democrats blame it on Bush, like it was somehow his fault Obama had to raise the deficit. Bush sucked, he lost my vote, but if you wanted to lower the deficit, why would you add to it? It's like if you are $100,000 in debt, and you go to the bank and say you need $300,000 to lower your debt. They would laugh at you and send you on your way.
It's kind of hard to say Obama ISN'T a socialist with the comments he has made, and the people he has appointed. Remember Joe the plumber? Obama wants to "level out the playing field", like we all don't have the same opportunities. It's the rich peoples fault for being so successful. They are just so greedy, we need to take their money and give it to somebody "less fortunate". It's bullshit.
What do you mean when you say we are more afraid of the terrorists then the nazis or soviets? Have you not seen all the anti nazi or soviet posters and banners during the war and after. We treated those people worse than we do the terrorists. In my book, they were all p.o.s, and they all need to be shown for who they are. And don't mis judge the extremists. They are smart and dangerous. Just because they don't have the technology we have, doesn't mean they are any less dangerous.
The Declaration, Constitution, and Bill of Rights were written to protect Americans, not a crazy extremist that wants to kill us. Should we give these people the same rights Americans have? I don't think so. They will stop at nothing to see the death of the west and american culture, so giving them the rights we have would not be a good idea.

Jack*Herrer420 · Nov 25, 2009

OregonMeds said:
Same exact thing the slave masters said about their slaves. I suppose it would be good for their health to work 16 hour days in some prison sweatshop too.

What are you some kind of extremist sympathizer? These people would kill you if they got the chance. These people have no right to enjoy the freedoms we have. It seems you care more about the freedoms of known plotters and murderers, than you do about American citizens.

Jack*Herrer420 · Nov 25, 2009

SmokeyMcChokey said:
you mean tell them that every one really thinks they are failures and they should just go ahead an take over for us. You know that is the most sensible plan for the war i have been presented yet!

Exactly. It's not like we are really going to change the views and lifestyles of these people, so lets use Russia as a scapegoat.

OregonMeds · Nov 25, 2009

Jack*Herrer420 said:
What are you some kind of extremist sympathizer? These people would kill you if they got the chance. These people have no right to enjoy the freedoms we have. It seems you care more about the freedoms of known plotters and murderers, than you do about American citizens.

And you would kill them if you had the chance by the sound of things so who's worse and how should you be treated by them if the situation were reversed?

It's really short sighted to act like we do, just makes more terrorists than it stops.

londonfog · Nov 25, 2009

Jack I needed to get some rest last night that's why I did not respond, but now that I'm refreshed after a couple of days of not getting rest lets begin...

First you keep saying Obama is just like Bush ..I disagree..nothing like the man...If you think they are the same then we probably will just be going around and around with this argument...I can point out the difference if you need me to, but both men had a difference in policy... Iraq war being one of them....I see people bycthn about Obama before he even started office...You and I both know that some people hate Obama just because of the color of his skin..You know it..I know it..and they know it....Now they scream foul when I bring race into this..I say please I call it like I see it...When I see editorials of a gorrilla getting killed and the punch line is Obama it makes me pause ( and start cleaning my guns ).. Now I'm not saying all hate Obama because of his color, but enough to make me shake my head and to be sure that I form my own opinions on my own ...and thats without the influence of Fox news or the teabaggers. Unlike some I have and have had a chance to travel outside of the states and have seen and still see how our policy affects others..I can very well shape my own opinions..Now true its some things about Obama I don't like ( bank bail outs being one and keeping Timmy ), but on a whole I like the man for what he is trying to do...What makes it so harder for President Obama is he not only have to fight people for his policies, but he also has to fight just because of the color of his skin....I watch these teabaggers and you will have to admit most these people are clueless to politics. Ask them a question and they either don't know or says something so stupid that they should have just kept the mouth shut....Now to be honest me being a black man see how this world can be ..I for one never have let it hold me back, because although you still have racism alive and well in this country, you stiill have people ( black and white ) that see past color and work for the common good....Now you say you don't like Obama and thats fine...One part of your argument is because of health care and thats fine....but me I think health care for all would be great....something bush nor cheney would never have done ( hmmmmm thats another difference ), so when you say that they are the same you lose me because they are not....

Illegal Smile · Nov 25, 2009

londonfog said:
Jack I needed to get some rest last night that's why I did not respond, but now that I'm refreshed after a couple of days of not getting rest lets begin...

First you keep saying Obama is just like Bush ..I disagree..nothing like the man...If you think they are the same then we probably will just be going around and around with this argument...I can point out the difference if you need me to, but both men had a difference in policy... Iraq war being one of them....I see people bycthn about Obama before he even started office...You and I both know that some people hate Obama just because of the color of his skin..You know it..I know it..and they know it....Now they scream foul when I bring race into this..I say please I call it like I see it...When I see editorials of a gorrilla getting killed and the punch line is Obama it makes me pause ( and start cleaning my guns ).. Now I'm not saying all hate Obama because of his color, but enough to make me shake my head and to be sure that I form my own opinions on my own ...and thats without the influence of Fox news or the teabaggers. Unlike some I have and have had a chance to travel outside of the states and have seen and still see how our policy affects others..I can very well shape my own opinions..Now true its some things about Obama I don't like ( bank bail outs being one and keeping Timmy ), but on a whole I like the man for what he is trying to do...What makes it so harder for President Obama is he not only have to fight people for his policies, but he also has to fight just because of the color of his skin....I watch these teabaggers and you will have to admit most these people are clueless to politics. Ask them a question and they either don't know or says something so stupid that they should have just kept the mouth shut....Now to be honest me being a black man see how this world can be ..I for one never have let it hold me back, because although you still have racism alive and well in this country, you stiill have people ( black and white ) that see past color and work for the common good....Now you say you don't like Obama and thats fine...One part of your argument is because of health care and thats fine....but me I think health care for all would be great....something bush nor cheney would never have done ( hmmmmm thats another difference ), so when you say that they are the same you lose me because they are not....

That would fly with me if weren't well-documented that it was a central strategy of Obama campaign before the primaries to insulate him from criticism by attacking any critic as a racist. I remember seeing Susan Estrich on TV laughing and saying "hahaha there's nothing you can do. If you criticize Obama you will be labeled racist."

I agree that there is some ugly racism surrounding the Obama campaign/admin, but I don't see it in the same places you do.

londonfog · Nov 25, 2009

Illegal Smile said:
That would fly with me if weren't well-documented that it was a central strategy of Obama campaign before the primaries to insulate him from criticism by attacking any critic as a racist. I remember seeing Susan Estrich on TV laughing and saying "hahaha there's nothing you can do. If you criticize Obama you will be labeled racist."

I agree that there is some ugly racism surrounding the Obama campaign/admin, but I don't see it in the same places you do.

illegal I did say not all...for the ones that hate Obama because of his policy and policy only...then guy not only will i support your right to speak against him but I will fight for your right to do so as well ( even if we disagree )....but for the racist bastards like Rush and such...phuck them we living in a different time now....

Illegal Smile · Nov 25, 2009

londonfog said:
illegal I did say not all...for the ones that hate Obama because of his policy and policy only...then guy not only will i support your right to speak against him but I will fight for your right to do so as well ( even if we disagree )....but for the racist bastards like Rush and such...phuck them we living in a different time now....

I'm saying the use of race, race-mongering, lies with the Obama side not with his opponents. Race is an industry and if we were ever to become color-blind for real, all the Jacksons and Sharptons and Wrights and Obamas would be out of business.

TheBlazehero · Nov 25, 2009

yeah I don't think this is about race at all. I don't think it's right to call tea party people ignorant or racist. that's like saying black people are ignorant and racist. or white people or republicans or whatever. yeah, inevitably some people are going to be ignorant racists, but unless you're talking about the KKk or some hate group like that, you can't say most or all of them are ignorant racists. I've never been involved in a Tea Party myself. I think Glen Beck and Sean Hannity are douches who play on the fears of people. Those guys don't represent the Tea Parties. They are just trying to get more viewers. The point is that we have moved so far away from our Constitution that we live in an alternate United States of America today. Too much government. It's like too much Kobe, can not be stopped.

I'd like to see an end to these programs and entities: The Federal Reserve, The Department of (Mis)Education, SSA, Welfare to those who are not mentally or physically disabled, the DEA, the minimum wage law, NAFTA, the WTO (withdraw from both), endless wars, the IRS, the VA (a complete joke and travesty to our veterans), FHA, HUD....

I'm not ignorant or a racist. I just believe that the United States should not intervene in free markets (i.e. Keynesian economics since 1913) and that we should not intervene in foreign affairs, unless it is our last possible choice (like WWII, even WWI was something we should not have been involved in), and that the bigger central government is, the more people turn to their government for answers and sustenance, which allows the government to get even bigger. Are these views so radical? If you say so, but they probably were at the time that Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison, George Washington, John Jay, John Adams and Thomas Paine were spelling them out too. Government intervention on our lives assumes that we cannot govern ourselves. The more we believe this, the more we will behave like this.

abe23 · Nov 25, 2009

Jack*Herrer420 said:
You can't just say somebody isn't credible because you don't agree with them. Do you not remember all of the people calling Bush a nazi, or how he should be put on trial for war crimes? It's not like people just started complaining about our president. This has been going on since the beginning.
Maybe if Obama didn't triple the deficit, you might have a point. Are we supposed to just sit back and wait until this country is completely destroyed before we do anything? Obama has done nothing to fix the mess we are in, instead he and the democrats blame it on Bush, like it was somehow his fault Obama had to raise the deficit. Bush sucked, he lost my vote, but if you wanted to lower the deficit, why would you add to it? It's like if you are $100,000 in debt, and you go to the bank and say you need $300,000 to lower your debt. They would laugh at you and send you on your way.
It's kind of hard to say Obama ISN'T a socialist with the comments he has made, and the people he has appointed. Remember Joe the plumber? Obama wants to "level out the playing field", like we all don't have the same opportunities. It's the rich peoples fault for being so successful. They are just so greedy, we need to take their money and give it to somebody "less fortunate". It's bullshit.
What do you mean when you say we are more afraid of the terrorists then the nazis or soviets? Have you not seen all the anti nazi or soviet posters and banners during the war and after. We treated those people worse than we do the terrorists. In my book, they were all p.o.s, and they all need to be shown for who they are. And don't mis judge the extremists. They are smart and dangerous. Just because they don't have the technology we have, doesn't mean they are any less dangerous.
The Declaration, Constitution, and Bill of Rights were written to protect Americans, not a crazy extremist that wants to kill us. Should we give these people the same rights Americans have? I don't think so. They will stop at nothing to see the death of the west and american culture, so giving them the rights we have would not be a good idea.

Again, my problem is not criticism of the president. It's unfair and unreasonable criticism of him that started long before he won the election and took office. Admit that it doesn't really matter what he does. There is a whole league of folks who want him to fail and it's not about policy but rather about politics....there is reasonable criticsm and there are the tea parties. Two different things. And just like you say, the people saying war criminal and doing the exact same thing to bush were moronic hacks as well. Congratulations, you are just like them....
Something will need to be done about the deficit, but let's be fair: that was the case under ronald reagan, two bushes and a clinton and barack obama won't make it go away overnight. TARP and the stimulus were pretty big bombshells but there wasn't much of an option and it definitely wasn't what obama wanted to be doing his first months in office.
And guy, just so you know....the cold war pretty much ended 20 years ago. Red-baiting really doesn't make that much sense these days. We all agree the free marked is the way to go most of the time, it's just about knowing were it needs to be regulated. Calling the president a socialist is pointless and really doesn't address any of the issues. No offense but calling him a socialist is really just the way dumb conservatives who want to avoid discussing the issues end conversations. It's just like when people called bush a nazi and a war criminal....stupid. And it really bothers me that people like yourself who otherwise seem like they can think for themselves and share at least one of my passions would buy into that kind of garbage. It also seems to me like the more right-wing republicans are taking advantage of the tea party people politically in a very cynical way.
I'm just saying that I'm not nearly as afraid of these arab assholes than I was of SS-20s and I don't think you have to be either. We don't need to torture and deny habeus corpus to fight these people is all I'm saying....

Johnnyorganic · Nov 25, 2009

First off. Abe23, I want to welcome you here. Your arguments are well thought out and thought provoking.

abe23 said:
I'm all for holding politicians accountable be they republicans or democrats. I also think too many of the tea party people were cheerleading for the administration during the bush/cheney years for them to be credible.

This might be true for some. But for others, many others, it is sense of "enough already!" Conservatives are a pretty independent lot. It takes quite a bit to get people who actually work for a living riled up enough to march.

abe23 said:
That's the only reason I brought those two assholes up in the first place by the way. We now have a new administration and I think it's only fair to give them chance to at least up the mess of the previous (republican) management.

If we feel the 'solutions' take the country in the wrong direction it is our duty to sound the alert. And our right under the First Amendment. I have seen enough of this man to understand what he intends for my country. After all, he's been in the public eye since the 2004 Democratic convention.

abe23 said:
The knee-jerk criticism of anything obama does is pretty silly, but it really gets to me when people start talking about revolution and implicitly threaten violence (if you don't think this is happening, tune in to am radio sometime). We have a political system with winners and losers. When you lose you can't just accuse the other guy of being a socialist and pretend that you have a right to 'resist tyranny'. We put up with bush for 8 years, not because we liked it but because he won and nobody was talking of revolution.

AM radio is pretty tame. You want revolutionary whack jobs - listen to shortwave sometime.

abe23 said:
again, the hypocrisy is what bothers me.
And this hypocrisy is reaching epic proportions lately with the constant "shit or get off the pot" comments regarding afghanistan or the unfair criticism of prosecuting terrorists in civilian courts (which has been done for years, including during the bush years), not to mention the healthcare mess. Just give the man a chance and if his policies are really as bad as you say, he will be voted out of office. He'll be up for reelection soon enough...

Just holding him to his campaign promises. I would like to see us out of Afghanistan as well. Probably for reasons far different from yours, but the goal is the same.

abe23 said:
And frankly, are we really supposed to be more afraid of a bunch of morons plotting in a cave than we were of the nazis or the soviets with the nuclear missiles? Don't get me wrong, I am fully aware of the threat that these people pose and I think preventing them from getting wmds should be our biggest priority. I'm just saying that we shouldn't be so afraid of these idiots that we completely abandon our values.

In the case of the Nazis, we ignored the problem for a long time. In fact many prominent Americans actually supported the Nazis. Which sort of explains why we did not enter the war sooner than we did.

The Communists were a much more pressing threat to liberty, especially after the war.

The Islamists are more akin to the Nazis. Totalitarian, anti-semetic... and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

abe23 said:
Healthcare wasn't really a political issue at the time of the revolution, but torture and arbitrary detention were and if you read the declaration of independence or the bill of rights, it's pretty clear on which side of that issue the people who founded this country stood.

True enough.

I would like you to read an article by Thomas Sowell. It is on Townhalldotcom, but I suspect you are open minded enough to read it. It is an easy read, only 1 1/2 pages. I'd like to know your thoughts.

http://townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2009/11/24/solving_whose_problem?page=1

londonfog · Nov 25, 2009

abe23 said:
Again, my problem is not criticism of the president. It's unfair and unreasonable criticism of him that started long before he won the election and took office. Admit that it doesn't really matter what he does. There is a whole league of folks who want him to fail and it's not about policy but rather about politics....there is reasonable criticsm and there are the tea parties. Two different things. And just like you say, the people saying war criminal and doing the exact same thing to bush were moronic hacks as well. Congratulations, you are just like them....
Something will need to be done about the deficit, but let's be fair: that was the case under ronald reagan, two bushes and a clinton and barack obama won't make it go away overnight. TARP and the stimulus were pretty big bombshells but there wasn't much of an option and it definitely wasn't what obama wanted to be doing his first months in office.
And guy, just so you know....the cold war pretty much ended 20 years ago. Red-baiting really doesn't make that much sense these days. We all agree the free marked is the way to go most of the time, it's just about knowing were it needs to be regulated. Calling the president a socialist is pointless and really doesn't address any of the issues. No offense but calling him a socialist is really just the way dumb conservatives who want to avoid discussing the issues end conversations. It's just like when people called bush a nazi and a war criminal....stupid. And it really bothers me that people like yourself who otherwise seem like they can think for themselves and share at least one of my passions would buy into that kind of garbage. It also seems to me like the more right-wing republicans are taking advantage of the tea party people politically in a very cynical way.
I'm just saying that I'm not nearly as afraid of these arab assholes than I was of SS-20s and I don't think you have to be either. We don't need to torture and deny habeus corpus to fight these people is all I'm saying....

Very good points made. +rep

AkPapaGanja · Nov 25, 2009

londonfog said:
not ignorant at all...How could you out a CIA op..come on...dude Cheney was a bad guy..didn't give a phuck about America only Cheney..what 5 deferments...that guy gets no respect guy none...You defend him all you want but Cheney bad guy...didn't say Bush..he was just a puppet..and a dumbass

Out a CIA op? I f they were to be outed, they would have to be undercover, which Valerie was not. She had not been undercover in several years and was working in Langley for crying out loud. There was no secret to be revealed and the only guy to be prosecuted wa poor Skip, who took the axe, just to satisfy the bloodlust of the outraged Clinton holdovers in the CIA. Whole lot of nothing. Anyone think Joe Wilson had an agenda here? Could be why the fed all the misinformation to Bush about Saddam. Cheny is a dirtbag. So what?Don't hunt with him, Foggy. Oh yeah, you don't hunt; well don't go fishing with him either.

No fillibuster for Repukes.Talks move forward

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