New Loft Grow Room - Input Appreciated

loftygoals

loftygoals

Well-Known Member
Feisty1UR said:
Damn... that's ALOT of dedication. Either way, the grow looks great so far! how many years have you been growing roughly?

I setup my first grow the start of this year, finished around april time. Currently working on my next grow, upgraded my grow space/grow technique, going for a 4x4 SOG style grow this time around. Would you consider growing using SOG? or suggesting it
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This is my first grow... so roughly... er... a few months :lol:

I wouldn't consider having all my flower space (2.4x2.4m) as a SOG because watering that many plants would just be a bloody nightmare. I have a full time job! I can barely handle watering 16 pots once a day :oops:

I'd consider a smaller tent (maybe 60x60cm) with a SOG inside for a specific strain. I'm a long ways off that sort of experimentation though.

The next upgrade I'm eyeing up is swapping my COBs to Cree CXB3590 3500k CD units and then also adding vertical style LED side lighting to bring up all the lower buds. I should have a crazy trial run going within a few months :o
 
Feisty1UR

Feisty1UR

Well-Known Member
loftygoals said:
This is my first grow... so roughly... er... a few months :lol:

I wouldn't consider having all my flower space (2.4x2.4m) as a SOG because watering that many plants would just be a bloody nightmare. I have a full time job! I can barely handle watering 16 pots once a day :oops:

I'd consider a smaller tent (maybe 60x60cm) with a SOG inside for a specific strain. I'm a long ways off that sort of experimentation though.

The next upgrade I'm eyeing up is swapping my COBs to Cree CXB3590 3500k CD units and then also adding vertical style LED side lighting to bring up all the lower buds. I should have a crazy trial run going within a few months :o
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Haha you have the same kind of idea as me - Next grow I'm hopefully going to invest in some COB units too, I've been eyeing up these http://timbergrowlights.com/250-watt-cree-cxb3590-5-cob-kit-meanwell-hlg-power-supply-free-shipping/

I'm only using a 600w HPS + Air-cooled hood. (That was my upgrade) :D please don't laugh - Last time I used a 400w HPS with basic reflector, only yielded 10oz :-|

You've definitely done more research than me, feel free to give me a little advice whenever you have time :dunce: Ideally wanted to squeeze as much out of this 4x4 as humanly possible, SOG seemed the way to go :)
 
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loftygoals

loftygoals

Well-Known Member
Feisty1UR said:
Haha, you have the same kind of idea as me - Next grow I'm hopefully going to invest in some COB units too, I've been eyeing up these http://timbergrowlights.com/250-watt-cree-cxb3590-5-cob-kit-meanwell-hlg-power-supply-free-shipping/

I'm only using a 600w HPS + Air-cooled hood. (That was my upgrade) please don't laugh :D Last time I used a 400w HPS with basic reflector, only yielded 8oz :-|
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Nothing to laugh at :) That's a very good result for a 400w HPS :)

That kit looks good. I was having a good look a few weeks ago.

Only bit of advice I'd give you is have it clear in your head why you're upgrading (I need to cut my electricity costs, I want more total yield, I want to keep the same yield but cut the heat etc) and base your upgrade off that. Don't just upgrade for the sake of it.
 
Feisty1UR

Feisty1UR

Well-Known Member
loftygoals said:
Nothing to laugh at :) That's a very good result for a 400w HPS :)

That kit looks good. I was having a good look a few weeks ago.

Only bit of advice I'd give you is have it clear in your head why you're upgrading (I need to cut my electricity costs, I want more total yield, I want to keep the same yield but cut the heat etc) and base your upgrade off that. Don't just upgrade for the sake of it.
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Electricity costs, have control over temps, extra yield ($$$), . Pretty much exactly what everyone wants, right? :)
 
loftygoals

loftygoals

Well-Known Member
Feisty1UR said:
Electricity costs, have control over temps, extra yield ($$$), . Pretty much exactly what everyone wants, right? :)
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I guess yeah :)

I'd say make yourself familiar with efficiency of different lighting technologies and why certain lights give you more GPW than others. I don't post in the lighting section much but I'm very familiar with pretty much everything out there at the moment lighting technology wise.

I found table 3 in this article useful for helping me understand why certain lights are better than others: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0099010#pone-0099010-t003

Your 400w HPS would have put out just over half the umol/j (0.94) as a double ended Gavita (1.70) or CMH (1.46). So it's using almost twice the electricity to produce the same amount of light for the plants (1.8x a Gavita or 1.55x a CMH). Which is why your GPW is just over half of what you'd hope/pray for from a high end light. The LEDs in that table are old technology and you can see why old LEDs didn't produce much more GPW than HIDs... the umol/j is similar so GPW will also be similar.

The kit you linked to from Timber has 5 Cree CXB3590s driven at 50w each. They will produce around 2.5umol/j. At 250w that means 625umol/s total output. What does that mean for you? Well you got 283g of bud from 491umol/s total under your 400w HPS so you could probably expect around 360g from 625umol/j (the 250w kit) under the same conditions. 77g extra.

How much electricity saving do you make over that grow? You use 150w less for 12h a day for 2 months of flower (108kwh) and 150w less for 18h a day for 6 weeks of veg (121kwh) which is 229kwh. My electricity costs £0.11 per kwh so only £25 (around $33 US) of electricity savings over the whole grow but it cost you $499 to buy the kit. Is it worth it? Well if you grew the same total amount of cannabis then it's probably not worth it TBH because it would take 7-8 grows to pay for itself (if you include bulb prices). But if you get an extra 77g of yield then it pays for itself in 1 grow.

Now you've upgraded to a 600w HPS it gets even more blurry :o That's why it's very difficult to get definitive answers on lighting upgrades!

That is what I mean by having it clear in your head why you're upgrading ;)
 

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Feisty1UR

Feisty1UR

Well-Known Member
loftygoals said:
I guess yeah :)

I'd say make yourself familiar with efficiency of different lighting technologies and why certain lights give you more GPW than others. I don't post in the lighting section much but I'm very familiar with pretty much everything out there at the moment lighting technology wise.

I found table 3 in this article useful for helping me understand why certain lights are better than others: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0099010#pone-0099010-t003

Your 400w HPS would have put out just over half the umol/j (0.94) as a double ended Gavita (1.70) or CMH (1.46). So it's using almost twice the electricity to produce the same amount of light for the plants (1.8x a Gavita or 1.55x a CMH). Which is why your GPW is just over half of what you'd hope/pray for from a high end light. The LEDs in that table are old technology and you can see why old LEDs didn't produce much more GPW than HIDs... the umol/j is similar so GPW will also be similar.

The kit you linked to from Timber has 5 Cree CXB3590s driven at 50w each. They will produce around 2.5umol/j. At 250w that means 625umol/s total output. What does that mean for you? Well you got 283g of bud from 491umol/s total under your 400w HPS so you could probably expect around 360g from 625umol/j (the 250w kit) under the same conditions. 77g extra.

How much electricity saving do you make over that grow? You use 150w less for 12h a day for 2 months of flower (108kwh) and 150w less for 18h a day for 6 weeks of veg (121kwh) which is 229kwh. My electricity costs £0.11 per kwh so only £25 (around $33 US) of electricity savings over the whole grow but it cost you $499 to buy the kit. Is it worth it? Well if you grew the same total amount of cannabis then it's probably not worth it TBH because it would take 7-8 grows to pay for itself (if you include bulb prices). But if you get an extra 77g of yield then it pays for itself in 1 grow.

Now you've upgraded to a 600w HPS it gets even more blurry :o That's why it's very difficult to get definitive answers on lighting upgrades!

That is what I mean by having it clear in your head why you're upgrading ;)
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I'm going to have to read this 2 or 3 times to fully understand it lmao

So It's mainly down to umol output? How are umols calculated? :?

I was thinking about purchasing 3-4 of the CreeCXB bars, either the 300 (4) or the other. Still undecided. 1 for top lighting (maybe 2) and 2 for side lighting

Everyone on here talks about the G per watt method, so I go by that lol (Probably not the best method). I'm going to hope I can pull 600g from my 600w light :) with SOG and an Ebb n flow system, it's easily done compared to traditional grows, or SCROG from what I've researched

I'll have 36 rooted clones, once flowered, each pulling (hopefully) 1/2 oz each. 36 x 14 = 504. I'm still happy with that :) if I'm able to yield more.... that's even better :D

Side note: Read up somewhere that the 600w HPS is the "most efficient" HID bulb. Not sure if that claim is true or false :confused::confused:
 
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loftygoals

loftygoals

Well-Known Member
Yup mainly down to umol output. Also known as Photosynthetically Active Radiation (PAR) which is measured in thr number of photons the light emits or Photosynthetic Photon Flux (PPF).

If you check that table I linked you'll see a magnetic ballast HPS gets about 0.94umol/w while a electronic ballast HPS gets about 1.30umol/w and a double ended HPS gets about 1.70umol/w. So for the same wattage a DE will grow more, followed by a normal electronic ballast and finally a magnetic ballast gets least. The light technology is more important than just saying a 600w is most efficient.

A Gavita 6/750 DE running at 600w will grow almost double what a magnetic ballast 600w HPS does.
 
Indefinately

Indefinately

Well-Known Member
loftygoals said:
Yup mainly down to umol output. Also known as Photosynthetically Active Radiation (PAR) which is measured in thr number of photons the light emits or Photosynthetic Photon Flux (PPF).

If you check that table I linked you'll see a magnetic ballast HPS gets about 0.94umol/w while a electronic ballast HPS gets about 1.30umol/w and a double ended HPS gets about 1.70umol/w. So for the same wattage a DE will grow more, followed by a normal electronic ballast and finally a magnetic ballast gets least. The light technology is more important than just saying a 600w is most efficient.

A Gavita 6/750 DE running at 600w will grow almost double what a magnetic ballast 600w HPS does.
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Never heard of DE HPS

http://maximumyield.com/blog/2014/09/01/seeing-double/

Why is anyone using normal HPS.
I have been away from the growing seen for a few years and it's amazing the technology upgrades.

So much to learn.....

Indefinately
" Let there be Green in 2016 "
 
Will Thayer

Will Thayer

Well-Known Member
loftygoals said:
The next upgrade I'm eyeing up is swapping my COBs to Cree CXB3590 3500k CD units and then also adding vertical style LED side lighting to bring up all the lower buds. I should have a crazy trial run going within a few months :o
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Hello Lofty,
I have been watching and admiring your efforts for sometime now. You are an intelligent and research driven grower and it shows in all you have done thus far. Kudos to you.
I am in the U.K. as well and have some experience with building COB fixtures and sourcing parts in Europe. When you are ready to upgrade your lights I would be more then happy help you find what you need. The size of your grow would make Cree a significant upfront investment. It might be more cost effective to give the Citizen CLU048 series a look when you're ready. I wish you continued success in all your endeavours.

Cheers,
Will
 
T

TheBlowInn

Member
loftygoals said:
Nothing to laugh at :) That's a very good result for a 400w HPS :)

That kit looks good. I was having a good look a few weeks ago.

Only bit of advice I'd give you is have it clear in your head why you're upgrading (I need to cut my electricity costs, I want more total yield, I want to keep the same yield but cut the heat etc) and base your upgrade off that. Don't just upgrade for the sake of it.
Click to expand...
The electricity savings don';t seem that good but maybe the combination of saving plus lower temps could make it worthwhile. I am looking at all options because I don't want to invest in the wrong long term choice.

Do you have any concerns with the Electric company detecting significantly higher usage ?
 
Feisty1UR

Feisty1UR

Well-Known Member
loftygoals said:
Yup mainly down to umol output. Also known as Photosynthetically Active Radiation (PAR) which is measured in thr number of photons the light emits or Photosynthetic Photon Flux (PPF).

If you check that table I linked you'll see a magnetic ballast HPS gets about 0.94umol/w while a electronic ballast HPS gets about 1.30umol/w and a double ended HPS gets about 1.70umol/w. So for the same wattage a DE will grow more, followed by a normal electronic ballast and finally a magnetic ballast gets least. The light technology is more important than just saying a 600w is most efficient.

A Gavita 6/750 DE running at 600w will grow almost double what a magnetic ballast 600w HPS does.
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I've been looking online most of the gavita DE systems aren't able to run using AC,

Indefinitely is right, you have a TON of knowledge with these new techy systems. Iyoo what would you suggest for my plan? SOG 4x4.

At the start I was honestly debating using a big 3x3 T5 light lmao
 
loftygoals

loftygoals

Well-Known Member
The catch all answer for "what is the best light?" is the light with more yield for less wattage than its next most efficient competitor.

So if we take a 1000w DE Gavita = 1751umol/s of PAR output. If you're running Cree CXB3590s at 50w then 1751/2.5=700w.

Anything between 700w and 1000w of Cree CXB3590 COBs running at 50w (or lower) each... should cost less to run and yield more than a Gavita. If you go below 700w of COBs then you get a better yield from the Gavita so that becomes the better choice.

Over the long term that is the only answer that makes economic sense as long as the initial outlay is affordable and you can be bothered to build them IMO.

You can substitute other COBs such as Citizens or Veros. They are much of a muchness in terms of efficiency at wattages commonly used by grow lights at this point.

If you don't want a COB light then a DE HPS is best, then a CMH, then a electronic ballast HPS and finally a magnetic ballast.
 
Feisty1UR

Feisty1UR

Well-Known Member
loftygoals said:
The catch all answer for "what is the best light?" is the light with more yield for less wattage than its next most efficient competitor.

So if we take a 1000w DE Gavita = 1751umol/s of PAR output. If you're running Cree CXB3590s at 50w then 1751/2.5=700w.

Anything between 700w and 1000w of Cree CXB3590 COBs running at 50w (or lower) each... should cost less to run and yield more than a Gavita. If you go below 700w of COBs then you get a better yield from the Gavita so that becomes the better choice.

Over the long term that is the only answer that makes economic sense as long as the initial outlay is affordable and you can be bothered to build them IMO.

You can substitute other COBs such as Citizens or Veros. They are much of a muchness in terms of efficiency at wattages commonly used by grow lights at this point.

If you don't want a COB light then a DE HPS is best, then a CMH, then a electronic ballast HPS and finally a magnetic ballast.
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Can you get AC Hoods for DE HPS? I want to get the most out of my next 1-2 grows with the best/cheapest light possible. Then invest in some COB lighting afterwards.

Speaking of electronic ballasts, I read a post on here earlier - Not sure if this is true. But I'm not comfortable taking the risk honestly.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/warning-digital-electronic-ballasts-can-get-you-busted-the-a-m-radio-test.497790/
 
Indefinately

Indefinately

Well-Known Member
loftygoals said:
Over the long term that is the only answer that makes economic sense as long as the initial outlay is affordable and you can be bothered to build them IMO.
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On COBs , I'm surprised there not being manufactured in "ready to grow" lighting systems.
It's all DIY as you said, I definitely wouldn't be bothered building them.

I'm really surprised as I thought this was the way to go and would be ready to ship on an online shops. Not having to buy parts and build it out.:wall:
 
loftygoals

loftygoals

Well-Known Member
Indefinately said:
On COBs , I'm surprised there not being manufactured in "ready to grow" lighting systems.
It's all DIY as you said, I definitely wouldn't be bothered building them.

I'm really surprised as I thought this was the way to go and would be ready to ship on an online shops. Not having to buy parts and build it out.:wall:
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http://www.tastyled.com/
http://www.pacificlightconcepts.com/shop/

They're available but expensive which is why you probably haven't seen them around much.

My intention is to have a total of 3600w of COB top lighting. If I wanted to have that pre-built it would cost $725 for a 320w unit (around 56% efficient) from PLC. So I'd need 11 units at a total of $7975. That comes to £7500 for me when you include VAT and import duty. Eyewatering!

I could make my own 3600w Cree CXB CXB3590 lights (56% efficient like the PLC unit) from scratch for around £3800 all in. 50% discount over prebuilt but not the same finish :o

I could upgrade my current lights (reuse the frames, cooling and drivers) with 3600w of Cree CXB3590s (each COB running lower wattage) and have them around 62% efficient for around £3600.

I could buy 4000w of DE HPS for $1700 (£1400 here). That is 18% of the cost of prebuilt COBs for 75% of the PAR output! If you make it 5000w of DE HPS against 3600w of pre-built COBs then the HPS only cost 23% and produce about the same amount of light. That's why there are always different opinions on "which is the best light?"
 
Big smo

Big smo

Well-Known Member
loftygoals said:
http://www.tastyled.com/
http://www.pacificlightconcepts.com/shop/

They're available but expensive which is why you probably haven't seen them around much.

My intention is to have a total of 3600w of COB top lighting. If I wanted to have that pre-built it would cost $725 for a 320w unit (around 56% efficient) from PLC. So I'd need 11 units at a total of $7975. That comes to £7500 for me when you include VAT and import duty. Eyewatering!

I could make my own 3600w Cree CXB CXB3590 lights (56% efficient like the PLC unit) from scratch for around £3800 all in. 50% discount over prebuilt but not the same finish :o

I could upgrade my current lights (reuse the frames, cooling and drivers) with 3600w of Cree CXB3590s (each COB running lower wattage) and have them around 62% efficient for around £3600.

I could buy 4000w of DE HPS for $1700 (£1400 here). That is 18% of the cost of prebuilt COBs for 75% of the PAR output! If you make it 5000w of DE HPS against 3600w of pre-built COBs then the HPS only cost 23% and produce about the same amount of light. That's why there are always different opinions on "which is the best light?"
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Great thread! The timber grow light kits are of the cheapest options when you factor in quality and price. The passive cooling is a great option too. 4 3590's in a painted housing range from 700-1000 usd when the timber is 400.
 
Indefinately

Indefinately

Well-Known Member
loftygoals said:
http://www.tastyled.com/
http://www.pacificlightconcepts.com/shop/

They're available but expensive which is why you probably haven't seen them around much.

My intention is to have a total of 3600w of COB top lighting. If I wanted to have that pre-built it would cost $725 for a 320w unit (around 56% efficient) from PLC. So I'd need 11 units at a total of $7975. That comes to £7500 for me when you include VAT and import duty. Eyewatering!

I could make my own 3600w Cree CXB CXB3590 lights (56% efficient like the PLC unit) from scratch for around £3800 all in. 50% discount over prebuilt but not the same finish :o

I could upgrade my current lights (reuse the frames, cooling and drivers) with 3600w of Cree CXB3590s (each COB running lower wattage) and have them around 62% efficient for around £3600.

I could buy 4000w of DE HPS for $1700 (£1400 here). That is 18% of the cost of prebuilt COBs for 75% of the PAR output! If you make it 5000w of DE HPS against 3600w of pre-built COBs then the HPS only cost 23% and produce about the same amount of light. That's why there are always different opinions on "which is the best light?"
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You have explained it in laymans terms for me to understand.

When you talk about efficiency, what are you referring to?

I have spent hours over the last few day reading about cobs and it's very confusing and a little off putting as there are a heap of RIU advertisers ( Manufacturers ) that are just arguing back and forth about design and output and who's idea it was originally.

Lol

You have explained it better than all of them could alltogether.

:clap::clap::clap::clap:
 
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Big smo

Big smo

Well-Known Member
Indefinately said:
You have explained it in laments terms for me to understand.

When you talk about efficiency, what are you referring to?

I have spent hours over the last few day reading about cobs and it's very confusing and a little off putting as there are a heap of RIU advertisers ( Manufacturers ) that are just arguing back and forth about design and output and who's idea it was originally.



Lol

You have explained it better than all of them out together.

:clap::clap::clap::clap:
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lol! I was just at the same thread and got this alert. They have a lot to learn about running a buisness.
 
Will Thayer

Will Thayer

Well-Known Member
There is definitely a lot of ego driven poo-poo to wade through in the LED sub forum but also some really helpful and innovative folks as well. Over time you learn who to listen to and who to ignore.

I knew nothing about COBs last year and now I can not stop making them. If Timber or the Cutter kits were around when I started looking into COBs I would have went with them because they provide almost everything you need to build your first light.

There are cheaper COB options if you just wanted to dip your toe in the efficiency waters. Something like a DIY veg light with CXA2530 would not cost all that much and still blow t5 out of the water. My first build replaced a 215w T5 veg light with a 150w dimmable LED that produces more photons per watt and no regular bulb changes.

Cheers,
Will
 
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