New Led Or Not ?

PSUAGRO.

PSUAGRO.

Well-Known Member
I'm definitely not a fan of any type of secondary lenses.........this is not a solution to penetration problems IMO...

Edit: Oh btw spuzz this ^^^^ guy is telling everyone his panels use 3W EPISTARS...........*gets popcorn*
 
PSUAGRO.

PSUAGRO.

Well-Known Member
I thought "in the industry" a 3w diode is being driven at 750ma and up...........correct me if i'm wrong...
 
Spuzzum

Spuzzum

Well-Known Member
blacktourmaline said:
So... if you have to raise the damn fixture by 2' as a result of adding lenses... why the hell should I spend $300+ on lenses? I'm better off just leaving them at 140°, and keep the panel within 6"-12" above the canopy. I'd get a much better mixture of the wavelengths. Plus I'm planning a step-style perpetual cab.. the fixture is going to be the roof of the grow chamber, with the actual space being 36" x 18" x 36" high. Actual cab will be 48" x 24" x 72" high.. with insulated/soundproofed compartments for electrical, hydro, exhaust, carbon filter, etc...
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Agree with you, i have used 60, 90, and 120 degree lenses. And by far 120s do the best because you can get it closer. but 90s would be good for tall grows with multiple lighting. the only bad thing about 120s is the spread is so wide it literally can go past 7x7ft, i wonder if using a high quality reflector off the side of the light fixture would be a better bet to concentrate at least some of light into a smaller 4x4 or something just like HID.

did some talking on it in the LED tech forum

My observation are, correct me if im wrong.

"the best height for 3w diodes is about 1ft-1.5" I've noticed closer than ft stunts bud development and they kinda do this phat short chunky stubby tops things but still put on weight just looks better to have bigger longer colas so i keep LEDs at optimal 18" away... but this is with one 288 chp 580w, Epistar LED with 3 watt diodes 2 volts a chip, 630ma.

For 90 degree diodes and 3w chips, 1.5-2ft is great or they will bleach.. kinda defeats the point of leds if you have to move it further away, but not sure if it evens out with higher lm amount for 90 degree lens? probably just balances out.

Intesity of the led or "Brightness" or "Penetration" is over looked at in the LED world, you can only supply a certain amount of Brightness (so to say, or photons) to a plant, this is why you can't put a light to close to a plant or it will bleach. I believe that it comes down to the amount of Lumens in a square ft. so having enough chips to provide the say 10,000 lumens in a square ft. at a certain amount a ft away is the trick, and to accomplish this we need diodes that are
1. High Quality Lm output &
2. Alot of them in a certain space to provide the Lm per square ft at a reasonable distance

As of now 3w watt LEDs Have the Brightness or Penetration , at pretty good levels for most type of growing. Yeh maybe 10w diodes would be nice.. but any brighter LED diodes we would have to space further away from the plants because of the intensity.

So more LEDs in the UNIT per Sq ft is what we want...so if we are trying to cover 4x4ft we need to make sure we keep the Lumens a Square ft high which is best accomplished by multiple LED units.

Thoughts anyone? this theory may be totally wrong....."
Click to expand...


I'm not too sure on heights yet.. that'll have to come from experience.

"Epistar LED with 3 watt diodes 2 volts a chip, 630ma." - That's only 1.26W, and that's the Blues. Their Reds max out at 500mA, and Blues max out at 700mA. Are you sure it's 2v? That's pretty low. Reds are "usually" 2.2 or 2.3V @ 350mA, and higher at 700mA. Blues are average 1 volt more than a Red... 2.2-2.3v becomes 3.2-3.3v. Even 3.5v @ 700mA is only 2.45W.. not a 3W diode.

As for lumen per square foot.. that's "usable" lumen.. ie: so many lumen of Blue, so many lumen of Red, etc...
 
B

blacktourmaline

Member
yeh meant they are running 2 watts a chip...not volts, 288 x 2watts a chip running at 576watts total. This light puts out avg 20,000 lumens from a 1.5ft away. and 38,000 at .5 to 1ft away. To Make a DIY LED to provide that many Lumens with CREE, OSRAMs etc. I Could Use half as many diodes to produce the same lumens/results. So thats 144 Diodes. 144 x (avg) $5 a chip thats = $720 (which is about the price of this epistar LED altogether) just for the chips, and for 2 heatsinks ($200) and 12 drivers($450) and supplies ($100). so total = around $1470 (with all the high quality parts etc. +-) to make a Light equivalent (output over +20,000lm) to the ones i have it would cost double the cost to put out the same lumens......So honestly the CHINAs with REAL epistar Leds are not that bad on price,. Yes they do burn twice as many watts as DIY is the only downfall, but for price its half as much to perform the same as DIY. Which is they only real bummer about DIY they prices are still high. So technically, it comes down to what you can afford. buy twice as many chinas with epistars get twice yield with twice as many watts, or cut the watts down and spend twice as much.
 
Spuzzum

Spuzzum

Well-Known Member
blacktourmaline said:
yeh meant they are running 2 watts a chip...not volts, 288 x 2watts a chip running at 576watts total. This light puts out avg 20,000 lumens from a 1.5ft away. and 38,000 at .5 to 1ft away. To Make a DIY LED to provide that many Lumens with CREE, OSRAMs etc. I Could Use half as many diodes to produce the same lumens/results. So thats 144 Diodes. 144 x (avg) $5 a chip thats = $720 (which is about the price of this epistar LED altogether) just for the chips, and for 2 heatsinks ($200) and 12 drivers($450) and supplies ($100). so total = around $1470 (with all the high quality parts etc. +-) to make a Light equivalent (output over +20,000lm) to the ones i have it would cost double the cost to put out the same lumens......So honestly the CHINAs with REAL epistar Leds are not that bad on price,. Yes they do burn twice as many watts as DIY is the only downfall, but for price its half as much to perform the same as DIY. Which is they only real bummer about DIY they prices are still high. So technically, it comes down to what you can afford. buy twice as many chinas with epistars get twice yield with twice as many watts, or cut the watts down and spend twice as much.
Click to expand...

But a Red 624nm Epistar, which maxes out at 500mA.. only has 11000 mcd.. 1000 mcd = 1 lm, therefore, that Red Epistar 623nm 500mA diode "only" gives a whopping 11 lumens. A Cree XP-E Red 620-630nm.. 39.8-56.8 lumens.. at 350mA. A Red-Orange 610-620nm has 56.8-73.9 lumen.. at 350mA. That's 5 to 6 times as much as an Epistar.


That's nearly 4x the output. And only $3.55 for 1, or $3.15 per piece in a lot of 10. Shit.. even at $4 a piece.. that's 4x the output of an Epistar.. and I'm sure Epistar's are at least $1 a piece, so...


I'd still get the Crees and Osrams. Just use 1/3 to 1/4 what the ChinaCrap uses. And as for all the other prices added on.. drivers can be made for cheap, or.. you "could" buy the same cheap-assed drivers that the ChinaCraps use.. I can't see them being $20 like a buckpuck. Prices I quoted were for quality components.. as long as the diodes are quality, you can scrimp on the other things.. as long as they're "safe".. and keep the diodes as cool as they need to be. U-channel can be bought at HomeDepot.. many make a heatsink using that.. and add some fans.
 
Spuzzum

Spuzzum

Well-Known Member
And if places like Digi-Key, Mouser, Future Electronics, Active Electronics, or even Jameco don't carry the manufacturer.. then that should tell you something right there. No Epistar, and no Semiled.. but Digi-Key and Mouser "both" carry Bridgelux. Future carries heatsinks for Bridgelux, but not the diodes themselves.

But out of all of them... if "Digi-Key" doesn't even "mention" them.. even as "discontinued".. then there's something wrong.. Digi-key carries an incredible selection of "everything".. from cheap-assed ChinaCrap, all the way to "top shelf" high end quality. If Digi-Key doesn't carry it, chances are.. you won't want it.

http://search.digikey.com/ca/en/cat/optoelectronics/leds-75ma-high-brightness-power/525057?k=led
 
B

blacktourmaline

Member
candela (millicandela) to lumen conversion wizard,
11000=34.558 lumens
Epistars REDs are lower than most and i agree are lacking in lumens, but other wavelengths they make are a little better. I have charts with all the lm/w for Epistars.

Im with you on the DIY not against it, just wanted to let people know that, That epistars do work fine if you can't afford or have the know how to build your own. I've been using them for a couple years now, and have found out the proof that with epistars you have to use more watts than the HID you want to compare too, because there lack of efficiency. But they do perform great when you do. ​
 
Spuzzum

Spuzzum

Well-Known Member
blacktourmaline said:
candela (millicandela) to lumen conversion wizard,
11000=34.558 lumens
Epistars REDs are lower than most and i agree are lacking in lumens, but other wavelengths they make are a little better. I have charts with all the lm/w for Epistars.

Im with you on the DIY not against it, just wanted to let people know that, That epistars do work fine if you can't afford or have the know how to build your own. I've been using them for a couple years now, and have found out the proof that with epistars you have to use more watts than the HID you want to compare too, because there lack of efficiency. But they do perform great when you do. ​
Click to expand...

I was going by my calculator in ubuntu...




I now see that the "sr" stands for "steradian".. the space within the beam angle. So.. whatever the base intensity, multiplied by the steradian.

Steradian
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The steradian (symbol: sr) is the SI unit of solid angle. It is used to describe two-dimensional angular spans in three-dimensional space, analogous to the way in which the radian describes angles in a plane. The name is derived from the Greek stereos for "solid" and the Latin radius for "ray, beam".

The steradian, like the radian, is dimensionless because 1 sr = m2·m−2 = 1. It is useful, however, to distinguish between dimensionless quantities of different nature, so in practice the symbol "sr" is used where appropriate, rather than the derived unit "1" or no unit at all. For example, radiant intensity can be measured in watts per steradian (W·sr−1). The steradian was formerly an SI supplementary unit, but this category was abolished from the SI in 1995 and the steradian is now considered an SI derived unit.
Click to expand...


Wouldn't it just be easier to list in lumens like everybody else?? The only other time I see mcd... is when talking 5mm, 30mA LEDs that are on your tv set, pc power button, etc... Everyone else lists in lumens.

But just to go by their datas using that calculator..

Epistar lists a Red 624nm as 11000mcd, and I'm "guessing" they're 140°, as that's what most seem to be.

11000mcd * 140° = Approximate luminous flux: 45.476 lumens
11000mcd * 120° = Approximate luminous flux: 34.558 lumens


They're not saying what current they're running at to get that though.. they could be set at the max of 500mA's. I can't see those numbers at 350mA.. not for a product that Digi-Key won't even touch.

The Crees on the other hand.. the numbers they list are at 350mA.. so that's "less" than a watt. 2.1v * 350mA = 735mW.

Even if you can't afford Crees, there's Seoul, or other brands. I'm just saying to buy a trusted name, that's actually for sale from trusted parts dealers. Digi-Key.. that's one of the first places a repair shop of any sorts looks for replacements. If Digi-Key doesn't carry it.. it's not that good.



Yes.. ChinaCrap can, and will grow weed. No question. But how much energy to produce how much bud? If Crees give more bud with less energy, due to a higher efficiency, and require less diodes as well.. which is better? And when it comes to durability.. how many dead panels out there? Or, with at least 1 dead row? There's a reason the panels are crapping out in the first place.. it's called crap parts. It's like choosing a dvd player.. Sony or Citizen. Both play the damn thing.. but that Sony costs $200 more.. at least. But that Sony will also last damn near forever. That Citizen? You'd be lucky with 5 years before it starts having "issues".
 
st0wner

st0wner

Member
so what kinda of wattage and price range arfe we looking at now max? sorry if i missed sometyhing but idk where to start in this thread anymore. let me know cause i just bought my first led panel. quad ban. prob not going to be worth it in a couple months but w.e no tech really is.
 
maxpesh

maxpesh

Active Member
st0wner said:
so what kinda of wattage and price range arfe we looking at now max? sorry if i missed sometyhing but idk where to start in this thread anymore. let me know cause i just bought my first led panel. quad ban. prob not going to be worth it in a couple months but w.e no tech really is.
Click to expand...
Hi there, I've been a bit absent from the thread as it has been going in a completely different direction as other information was being brought forward, but that is all good. Anyway to answer your question, the panel will be consuming 260watts and the price is going to be $590. It will do very well in veg but mainly designed for flowering. Like I said earlier on "I apologise for the delay" as the light design is finished but I am dealing with bureaucracy at the moment, however, as the grow journal will be starting soon I hope everyone on this forum will be watching ! As I said earlier, if it is a failure I will not sell the light but if it is a success I will welcome someone else to test it for an independent view point and just see what happens. I do NOT ever intend to rip ANYONE off ! I hope you have great success with your new light and if you do a grow journal let us all have the link to follow please :-)
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Maxpesh: Will you be growing via a method you are well versed in... ditto the strain? Kinda wish I had a good LED light to do an A/B for you, but damn, until recently, most haven't been worth the money. My suggestion is to find an LED grower who has spent ~ $600, so people can compare same price to performance.
 
maxpesh

maxpesh

Active Member
PetFlora said:
Maxpesh: Will you be growing via a method you are well versed in... ditto the strain? Kinda wish I had a good LED light to do an A/B for you, but damn, until recently, most haven't been worth the money. My suggestion is to find an LED grower who has spent ~ $600, so people can compare same price to performance.
Click to expand...
First grow using pineapple chunk from Barneys farm, in Coco Coir. I have 2 Blackstar 500's power consumption 290watts each and I suppose I could do a side by side comparison if anyone want's that ?
 
PSUAGRO.

PSUAGRO.

Well-Known Member
Let's get this show going........are you doing your own comparison grow?? Because that's not going quiet the skeptics unfortunately:-P

Be safe and happy growing..
 
curly604

curly604

Well-Known Member
.... ya im kinda confused as well , are you getting the panel your self and then doing a comparison grow?
 
st0wner

st0wner

Member
yes hes going to do his own comparative grow to determine weather or not he wants to sell it based on the results then he plans on getting someone els to do a comparitive grow to help out his rep if it works the way he wants it to. so if it doesnt work good enough to him then its not even going to be made hes prob going to go back to the drawing board. correct me if im wrong but i believe this is the plan
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Seems like a good plan. Especially when you factor in all the crap lights coming out that aren't appreciably different than their predecessors. It seems 660nms & IR are finally getting the attention they deserve for flowering, and that different spectrums benefit from different lens angles, or none at all. If you look at ledgrow.eu, he has been R & Ding for a long time. Why? Because good theories must be tested. However, they must be tested in capable hands, then compared to the competition. I would venture some adjustments will need to be made prior to offering the final version. If you guys are in such a hurry to buy now, I recommend HO T5s using aquarium bulbs. There are a couple interesting threads on RIU that will enlighten you (npi).
 
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