Spuzzum
Well-Known Member
170 lm/W?? Good luck. Even Cree doesn't output 170lm at 350mA.. the 1w current setting. 170lm at 3w maybe... but no way in hell 170lm at 1w.
New Led Or Not ?
- Thread starter maxpesh
- Start date
170 lm/W?? Good luck. Even Cree doesn't output 170lm at 350mA.. the 1w current setting. 170lm at 3w maybe... but no way in hell 170lm at 1w.
maxpesh
Active Member
Not available to the public yet, but if you take the time to do some reading you'll find that Cree has just hit 231lm/W. The theoretical limit for LED's was previously thought to be 200. Know your facts !
Eraserhead
Well-Known Member
Spuzz is right. The highest lumen per watt LED on the market is the Cree XP-G cool white @139 lumens per watt when driven @ 350mA. There are no "special" LEDs out there that are manufactured for these apartment based LED resellers.
http://www.cree.com/products/xlamp_xpg.asp
KNOW your facts. If there were a new LED chip on the market, not including Chinese counterfeits, I would know about it, there are no 170 lumen per watt LEDs out there. Anywhere. There are Chinese crap LED chips that claim 150 lumens per watt or more, I've seen claims of over 200lpw. But if you actually tested these Chinese LEDs, you'll find more like 80-90 LPW.
Based on the price of XP-Gs, if you were to fill a panel with 250 watts worth, it would cost you almost $1000 to have it manufactured, then you'd have to sell it for more to make a profit. I'm starting an LED company too, I have talked with many manufacturers from all over the world, and priced individual parts including diodes, power supplies, all the components that go into making a LED fixture, and I can assure you that there are no 170 lumen per watt LEDs out there, even that isn't available to the public. So with that said, any new Cree LEDs that was even more efficient, will be astronomically expensive compared to the others.
I think if you're going to start an LED company, don't start off like all the others have, all based on lies. Do your research, and know what you're buying so you can tell your customers what they are buying. This includes your spectrum. Do be secretive about it, it will lead people to believe you have something to hide. I had an interesting email conversation with Advanced LED about his "Bridgelux" and "Epistar" chips, in spectrum not even made by Bridgelux and Epistar. And Kyle made a complete ass out of himself lying to me, I proved to him he was lying and posted it on another forum, I can post screen shots of the email if anyone is interested.
Long story short, don't lie to your customers.
Product Selector
| White | CCT (K) | Max Current (mA) | Viewing Angle (°) | Standard Min. Flux @ 350 mA | Product Status |
| Cool | 8,300 5,000 | 1500 | 125 | 139 lm 130 lm 122 lm | Active |
| Outdoor | 5,300 - 4,300 | 1500 | 125 | 130 lm 122 lm 114 lm | Active |
| Neutral | 5,000 - 3,700 | 1500 | 125 | 122 lm 114 lm 107 lm | Active |
| 80-CRI White | 4,300 - 2,600 | 1500 | 125 | 107 lm 100 lm 93.9 lm | Active |
| Warm | 3,700 - 2,600 | 1500 | 125 | 114 lm 107 lm 100 lm 93.9 lm | Active |
85-CRI White | 3,200 - 2,600 | 1500 | 125 | 93.9 lm 87.4 lm 80.6 lm 73.9 lm | Active |
90-CRI White | 3,200 - 2,600 | 1500 | 125 | 87.4 lm 80.6 lm 73.9 lm | Active |
http://www.cree.com/products/xlamp_xpg.asp
KNOW your facts. If there were a new LED chip on the market, not including Chinese counterfeits, I would know about it, there are no 170 lumen per watt LEDs out there. Anywhere. There are Chinese crap LED chips that claim 150 lumens per watt or more, I've seen claims of over 200lpw. But if you actually tested these Chinese LEDs, you'll find more like 80-90 LPW.
Based on the price of XP-Gs, if you were to fill a panel with 250 watts worth, it would cost you almost $1000 to have it manufactured, then you'd have to sell it for more to make a profit. I'm starting an LED company too, I have talked with many manufacturers from all over the world, and priced individual parts including diodes, power supplies, all the components that go into making a LED fixture, and I can assure you that there are no 170 lumen per watt LEDs out there, even that isn't available to the public. So with that said, any new Cree LEDs that was even more efficient, will be astronomically expensive compared to the others.
I think if you're going to start an LED company, don't start off like all the others have, all based on lies. Do your research, and know what you're buying so you can tell your customers what they are buying. This includes your spectrum. Do be secretive about it, it will lead people to believe you have something to hide. I had an interesting email conversation with Advanced LED about his "Bridgelux" and "Epistar" chips, in spectrum not even made by Bridgelux and Epistar. And Kyle made a complete ass out of himself lying to me, I proved to him he was lying and posted it on another forum, I can post screen shots of the email if anyone is interested.
Long story short, don't lie to your customers.
blacktourmaline
Member
EPISTAR LAB Announced Worldwide Record 216 lm/W Warm White with High Voltage LED Chipset | LEDinside – LED, LED Lighting, LED Price Trends, Global LED News and Market Research. but who knows when these will be available..
I too design my own leds using Epistars(which i enjoy very much, wide spectrum and quality). They work great. let there be Power in people who are innovative and are putting they energy/testing towards the science of LEDS. It is important to be on the cutting edge as this technology advances. excited to see your leds when they get done maxpesh, maybe we can share some knowledge. spectrum wise ect. What wattage panels are you making again? I have designed many 3w panels(mostly 288x 3w, and 576 x 3w models)and smaller, with fully customized layouts and 20 band spectrums. Also been using High powered leds for quite awhile with proven testing and results. Im gonna start up a new thread called, LED Tech, for all veteran LED growers.
I too design my own leds using Epistars(which i enjoy very much, wide spectrum and quality). They work great. let there be Power in people who are innovative and are putting they energy/testing towards the science of LEDS. It is important to be on the cutting edge as this technology advances. excited to see your leds when they get done maxpesh, maybe we can share some knowledge. spectrum wise ect. What wattage panels are you making again? I have designed many 3w panels(mostly 288x 3w, and 576 x 3w models)and smaller, with fully customized layouts and 20 band spectrums. Also been using High powered leds for quite awhile with proven testing and results. Im gonna start up a new thread called, LED Tech, for all veteran LED growers.
Spuzzum
Well-Known Member
"Under a typical driving current of 15mA (or about 1 W operation equivalent), the luminous efficacy of 197 lm/W was achieved."
Yeah.. ok.. and this from the same company that lists in millicandela instead of lumen like everybody else.
http://www.epistar.com.tw/_english/01_product/01_overview.php
11000 mcd is "only" 11 lm, but 11000 is a bigger number than 11.. so sounds better to someone who doesn't know.
But if you know electronics.. then you know there's no way in hell 500mA gives a 3w diode. These are the diodes in a lot of panels, and being touted as "3w diodes".
Again.. if you know electronics, lets look at this "amazing" 197lm/W diode.
They say 197lm @ 15mA or 1W operation.
1W / 15mA = 66.66V (~ 999.9mW)
Are you serious?? 67 volts to give 1 watt???
Yeah.. ok. Now lets talk "real world".
Spuzzum
Well-Known Member
And the highest to the "public" is still 160lm/W Cree XM. 160lm @ 350mA, and 750lm @ 2A.
Show me a 200lm/W diode from Cree.. available to the public.
maxpesh
Active Member
From Cree's own information and news letter. Back in May 2011 " For its part, Cree broke the 200-lm/W barrier (Figure 3) for a white power LED with a CCT of 4579 K and then in May 2011, the company announced it had produced a device with a remarkable efficacy of 231 lm/W (at a drive current of 350 mA) using a single-die component. " It will not be very long before these are available to joe public or at least commercial interests ".
Spuzzum
Well-Known Member
You mean "this" press release?:
note how I provided a link...
"Not available to the public yet"
That was over a year ago. My original comment said not even Cree made a diode as strong as the one you were bragging about.. not available to the public, anyways. Cree also makes diodes for big-assed outdoor tv screens. I highly doubt "joe public" can order those.
Cree also makes what's known as modules... large lumen output.. but it's a larger component as well:
The Cree LED Module LMH with Cree TrueWhite® Technology is the ideal choice for commercial lighting applications where high CRI, luminous flux and efficacy are required, such as restaurants, retail and hospitality lighting.
Features
230-V only
Cree TrueWhite Technology
2000 & 2900 lm @ 3000-K & 4000-K CCT
Designed to last at least 50,000 hours at L70
Snap-lock tabs for easy trim mounting
Cree IES LM-80 data in support of U. S. DOE ENERGY STAR® qualification
Complies with multiple international standards
DALI and 1-10V dimming
http://www.cree.com/products/modules_lmh6.asp
2000-2900 lm.. but kinda hard to mount in a panel, eh?
So once again... who makes these 170lm/w diodes you're using? There's no "secret" in being honest, right? Isn't that what you said you were going to do? Be an "honest dealer"?
People in this community are tired of bs, "creative writing class" scams. They want to know what's inside. When you buy a car.. you look under the hood, right? You don't just buy on the "word" of the dealer.
Spuzzum
Well-Known Member
Hi puffenuff. First of all I'm actually an advocate of HPS as I'd been growing with these for many a year and all of a sudden LED's come into play making silly accusations that HPS is only 15% efficient. Well I'd realised this was a load of BS as I'd regularly pull 450-500 grams from a 600watt Philips Greenpower in a 4ft x4ft area(no extra Co2). Hence one of the main reasons for me mentioning the Green wavelength of light 18 months ago, everyone was saying this was just wasted light, after reading the Oxford grow article that just confirmed my theory that it wasn't wasted, so hold on ! Plants have been evolving with the Sun for billions of years and of course they utilise the full spectrum and just filter some light in varying percentages which best suits their purposes (different plants use different spectrums, there are bushes that have red leaves all year round just outside my house so they're not reflecting green at all). So we are trying to emulate Sunlight using electricity with the most efficiency. My theory with HPS is that they are a lot more efficient than what is believed, to me the most waste in this kind of bulb is the massive amount of heat produced. Now comes along LED technology with small results at the start, gets better with targeted spectrum's and through a lot of good people doing a lot of research are starting to find the spectrum's that ARE actually a waste of time to the Cannabis Plant. Now to me it makes total sense that LED's should be able to match and exceed HPS lighting because we can utilise the electricity that would normally go to producing heat to enhancing the spectrum's for enhanced flowering instead. So sorry for my rambling but I agree with HGL that the whole purpose of Led is to grow as much as an HPS but using less electricity and utilize a smaller space to do it in. The grow area for my light will be a 3ft X 3ft grow tent and I want and expect this light to replace a 600hps in the terms of Yield in this grow area.
HPS only 15% efficient?? I think you have that number backwards.. 85% efficient, and 15% wasted energy.
Oxford grow article, eh? Got a link? When you quote a journal or other info that "proves" what you are saying... give a damn link. Otherwise.. it's just hearsay.
puffenuff
Well-Known Member
I've been asking for concrete details since max announced his project. No dice, just vagueness, ignoring me, and unbacked claims. Great info sharing spuzz. Much appreciate, +rep for you sir.
maxpesh
Active Member
First of all, I did not say that HPS is only 15% efficient if you read my words correctly, I said the 15% was BS ????? Secondly ,you say you have read the entire thread and if this is so you would realise that I have posted the link to the Oxford journal on here many times. I will not bite at all the arguments about meaningless drivel. My greatest arguments will be the final results and yields. Don't forget that I will not give away my spectrums and ratios before I am established as this would be business suicide on my part. So to puffenuff, you can get irritated as much as you like but this is the way it's gonna be, so don't worry it'll all come in good time
Spuzzum
Well-Known Member
First of all, I did not say that HPS is only 15% efficient if you read my words correctly, I said the 15% was BS ????? Secondly ,you say you have read the entire thread and if this is so you would realise that I have posted the link to the Oxford journal on here many times. I will not bite at all the arguments about meaningless drivel. My greatest arguments will be the final results and yields. Don't forget that I will not give away my spectrums and ratios before I am established as this would be business suicide on my part. So to puffenuff, you can get irritated as much as you like but this is the way it's gonna be, so don't worry it'll all come in good time
That's just it.. nobody has ever claimed HPS is only 15% efficient. HPS does have a 10-15% overhead in the ballast.. that's what I meant by 15% "inefficient". So where you get dealers claiming "only" 15% efficiency is beyond me. Sounds like creative hype.
As for linking the Oxford grow journal.. pretty funny. "YOU" did not link "anything". In fact.. the only links to "Oxford...." is by beenthere . So I guess that means that that's you?? What.. can't remember who you logged on as??
Meaningless drivel?? I'm asking the exact same questions "any" CUSTOMER would ask. And if you're going to hide behind some half-assed excuse like that.. well buddy.. you're going to have a hell of a time selling your wares.
Thought you were an "honest dealer"? If so.. then why so reluctant to satisfy the customers' questions?
I'm not a dealer, so don't worry about that. I'm a DIY'er.. making a Cree/Osram panel. I've done plenty of extensive research myself.. friend. I just don't like scammer dealers who run and gun in this community. Tell bullshit, sell bullshit, then gone next month. It's nothing new.. we've all seen it.
So to say your "spectrums" are "secret"... lol! Bunk. "Maybe" the ratios.. but not the spectrums.
Unless you start claiming that 420nm is "the magical UV"... like some other panel does. Which was funny.. as UV-B is 280-315nm.
travish413
Well-Known Member
Thank you PT!!! I understand someone being shady at first with a new design. There's plenty of ppl on this thread reading it and one of those could possibly be a builder/retailer, so in defense to max I would also be vague with details until i had pattent rights and so on... that is of course if this led actually produces exceptional results. Be patient and wait til he shows us the finished product and specs before we start hating/praising.
Eraserhead
Well-Known Member
So we should all believe and trust him, because "he tells us to"?
With all the shady LED business going on out there, and for a new LED company surfacing complete with secrets and nothing to back up what he says he wants to use, i.e a non-existent 170 lumen per watt diode, why should we trust that?
Can you blame the skeptics for being skeptical and asking for some info?
I am going to bust out with a pre-I told you so.
I will also say this: If this light is what he says it is, and his 240 watt light even replaces a 400 watt HPS, put me down for 10 of them.
With all the shady LED business going on out there, and for a new LED company surfacing complete with secrets and nothing to back up what he says he wants to use, i.e a non-existent 170 lumen per watt diode, why should we trust that?
Have we yet to see a 240 watt LED truly replace a 600 watt HPS? This means this new LED should be capable of producing 600 grams+ of dried and manicured buds. 600 grams from a 240 watt light, 2.5 grams per watt?I can honestly say that I expect this light to realistically replace a 600 watt hps, but in a one meter square (10 square feet) grow tent we would normally use about 400 watts of hps not a 1000. Also I will be providing written grow techniques with each light as they somewhat differ to growing with HID. The whole point with LED is to get a many bud sites as possible in a reduced area and as little heat as possible so as to cut down on the amount of heat extraction thereby a reduction in electricity used . I am just trying to work out my costs at the moment, it is worth mentioning that this light will veg exceptionally well. but ! My main objective is the blooming stage as this is where the real value is and seems to be where a lot of led's have gained an unnecessary bad reputation, I do hope that changes soon and I will do my utmost best to alter this mindset.
Can you blame the skeptics for being skeptical and asking for some info?
I am going to bust out with a pre-I told you so.
I will also say this: If this light is what he says it is, and his 240 watt light even replaces a 400 watt HPS, put me down for 10 of them.
maxpesh
Active Member
Thank you for your understanding, that is the exact reason why I am being cagey about my choices of spectrums and ratios. When the plants go under the light the journal and all the details of the grow will be on here with plenty of pics. If you guys would like me to put the link to the grow journal on the website then that could be easily done, and if I was to lie about the results I'm sure that any dissatisfied customer would post their thoughts about the company and the product, to me, that would be the best way for me to kill my own business off from the start if I was to lie ?
maxpesh
Active Member
Better get saving your pennies then
PetFlora
Well-Known Member
To keep saying over and over and over and over and over (annoying isn't it?) that you doubt, has gotten beyond old. STFUA.
If I was Max I would just ignore all of you. There will be time enough for that. In the words of the infamous Donald Rumsfeld "We know what we know, and we don't know what we don't know"
If I was Max I would just ignore all of you. There will be time enough for that. In the words of the infamous Donald Rumsfeld "We know what we know, and we don't know what we don't know"