More Vero 18 vs less 29 for 4x8

HarryCooter · Nov 1, 2017

I'm going to be running my new 8 bucket rdwc scrog in a 4x8 tent. I want to do a diy cob set up and I'm torn between two ideas. I've pretty much figured I'm going to need atleast 1400 watts capability to be satisfied. My only hang up is how to go about it. Would I be best fit going with 36-40 Vero 18's for the sake of spread and coverage running them closer to the plants, or would i be better served going with 18 of the 29's and running them further away to get the coverage? I'm leaning toward the 18's for equal coverage, but Id love to hear the community's experience on this type of build and what might work better for what I am trying to accomplish. I have no idea of what the application looks like in person. My last diy light build was a red, blue, and uv about 6 years ago. All input is appreciated.

CobKits · Nov 2, 2017

depends whats more efficient.

try the bridgelux simulator and make sure to reduce Tc for the 18s

Rahz · Nov 2, 2017

Vero29C at 1050ma will provide 6-7% more efficiency than Vero18 at 1050ma any flavor. Dropping the current will improve Vero18 efficiency but not enough to equal the Vero29, so for a new build it makes sense to use the Vero29C.

nc208 · Nov 2, 2017

HarryCooter said:
I'm going to be running my new 8 bucket rdwc scrog in a 4x8 tent. I want to do a diy cob set up and I'm torn between two ideas. I've pretty much figured I'm going to need atleast 1400 watts capability to be satisfied. My only hang up is how to go about it. Would I be best fit going with 36-40 Vero 18's for the sake of spread and coverage running them closer to the plants, or would i be better served going with 18 of the 29's and running them further away to get the coverage? I'm leaning toward the 18's for equal coverage, but Id love to hear the community's experience on this type of build and what might work better for what I am trying to accomplish. I have no idea of what the application looks like in person. My last diy light build was a red, blue, and uv about 6 years ago. All input is appreciated.

Bigger is always better, I like to be able to crank it up if I want the ability to upgrade. Just go check out RapidLED or Timber's website and they have kits available for a 4x4 area, you basically just want 2 of these kits to fill your 4x8. You can buy them as a pre made option or build it yourself, just look at what the kits compromise of and it will give you a good starting point of what you want material wise. If you are trying to save money I would look at citizen cobs vs the vero 18's.

Shawndeadhead · Nov 3, 2017

HarryCooter said:
I'm going to be running my new 8 bucket rdwc scrog in a 4x8 tent. I want to do a diy cob set up and I'm torn between two ideas. I've pretty much figured I'm going to need atleast 1400 watts capability to be satisfied. My only hang up is how to go about it. Would I be best fit going with 36-40 Vero 18's for the sake of spread and coverage running them closer to the plants, or would i be better served going with 18 of the 29's and running them further away to get the coverage? I'm leaning toward the 18's for equal coverage, but Id love to hear the community's experience on this type of build and what might work better for what I am trying to accomplish. I have no idea of what the application looks like in person. My last diy light build was a red, blue, and uv about 6 years ago. All input is appreciated.

I'm running 16 Vero 18s per 4x4 I run, one per square ft pushed to about 31.5 watts each through Meanwell drivers. I like the 18s because their numbers aren't that much less than what the 29s output but I can run the 18s 6-8" off canopy without burn. Following pics week 3 flower under 18s BTW I'm pulling just over 2 Lb cured and dried per 4x4 only running 500 watts per 4x4.

HarryCooter · Nov 5, 2017

Shawndeadhead said:
View attachment 4037236 View attachment 4037237 View attachment 4037238 View attachment 4037235
I'm running 16 Vero 18s per 4x4 I run, one per square ft pushed to about 31.5 watts each through Meanwell drivers. I like the 18s because their numbers aren't that much less than what the 29s output but I can run the 18s 6-8" off canopy without burn. Following pics week 3 flower under 18s BTW I'm pulling just over 2 Lb cured and dried per 4x4 only running 500 watts per 4x4.

You basically built what I was thinking. Thats impressive efficiency, I'm sure the co2 is helping you get to that range. What color temp are you using, 3000k + 5000k? Looks pretty blue on the upper end.

Shawndeadhead · Nov 5, 2017

HarryCooter said:
You basically built what I was thinking. Thats impressive efficiency, I'm sure the co2 is helping you get to that range. What color temp are you using, 3000k + 5000k? Looks pretty blue on the upper end.

The co2 is just a 5 gallon bucket system with an air pump, it helps some, my buddy has a air and gas meter I borrowed and I'm showing 900-950 ppm at the canopy when it's running. It's 8 of them at 3000k and 8 of them at 4000k. I wanted some blue in there to help keep tight flowers and help with stretch, I think it's working ?
Getting ready to expand and can't decide if my next ones will be Vero 29s or just do 18s again and drive more watts through them.
Yeah the efficiency you can get from Led's the cobs and boards at least, as long as your environment is dialed in and your nutes medium and everything is good to go achieving 1.75-2.25 gram per watt is no longer unheard of, I remember when 1 gpw was a miracle lol

HarryCooter · Nov 5, 2017

Shawndeadhead said:
The co2 is just a 5 gallon bucket system with an air pump, it helps some, my buddy has a air and gas meter I borrowed and I'm showing 900-950 ppm at the canopy when it's running. It's 8 of them at 3000k and 8 of them at 4000k. I wanted some blue in there to help keep tight flowers and help with stretch, I think it's working ?
Getting ready to expand and can't decide if my next ones will be Vero 29s or just do 18s again and drive more watts through them.
Yeah the efficiency you can get from Led's the cobs and boards at least, as long as your environment is dialed in and your nutes medium and everything is good to go achieving 1.75-2.25 gram per watt is no longer unheard of, I remember when 1 gpw was a miracle lol

900ppm with a 5 gallon bucket? You have my attention. What is this magic bucket and what are you doing with it?

Shawndeadhead · Nov 5, 2017

HarryCooter said:
900ppm with a 5 gallon bucket? You have my attention. What is this magic bucket and what are you doing with it?

It's simple, old trick I Learned from a European grow magazine years and years ago. It's just yeast and sugar water, as it makes alcohol the by product is co2. 1 gallon of sugar water (3-4 cups) and about a gallon of yeast water (1-2 tablespoons)
Every few days throw another cup of sugar in it, I stir mine at the start of every 12/12.
This is a lot like the system I made

There is another video I can't find but it's old guy in a lab coat and he's taking measurements for different DIY co2 and they got right around 850 ppm avg for buckets, I'll try to find that link n upload it also

Shawndeadhead · Nov 5, 2017

HarryCooter said:
900ppm with a 5 gallon bucket? You have my attention. What is this magic bucket and what are you doing with it?

Here's the video for the different co2 DIY systems and the ppm's they achieved using each system tested

Shawndeadhead · Nov 6, 2017

HarryCooter said:
900ppm with a 5 gallon bucket? You have my attention. What is this magic bucket and what are you doing with it?

Oh I forgot in reply to your original post that's one of the big reasons I went with the Vero 18s is I wanted a nice even spread of 1 COB per sq ft, and with the 29s it was going to be crazy expensive since I usually flower two 4x4s at the same time, that would be 32 Vero29's at $25 each. That's $800 just for what's basically your light bulbs, and I don't care how much I make on profits I just couldn't drop that on just cobs I built lights for both tents for just over $1000.

Dave455 · Nov 6, 2017

Shawndeadhead said:
It's simple, old trick I Learned from a European grow magazine years and years ago. It's just yeast and sugar water, as it makes alcohol the by product is co2. 1 gallon of sugar water (3-4 cups) and about a gallon of yeast water (1-2 tablespoons)
Every few days throw another cup of sugar in it, I stir mine at the start of every 12/12.
This is a lot like the system I made

There is another video I can't find but it's old guy in a lab coat and he's taking measurements for different DIY co2 and they got right around 850 ppm avg for buckets, I'll try to find that link n upload it also

I thought CO2 was a waste unless pushing over 1500 ppfd ??

HarryCooter · Nov 6, 2017

Shawndeadhead said:
It's simple, old trick I Learned from a European grow magazine years and years ago. It's just yeast and sugar water, as it makes alcohol the by product is co2. 1 gallon of sugar water (3-4 cups) and about a gallon of yeast water (1-2 tablespoons)
Every few days throw another cup of sugar in it, I stir mine at the start of every 12/12.
This is a lot like the system I made

There is another video I can't find but it's old guy in a lab coat and he's taking measurements for different DIY co2 and they got right around 850 ppm avg for buckets, I'll try to find that link n upload it also

I'm familiar with fermentation buckets, but had no idea anyone was actually accomplishing a ppm range that we could say would definitively make a difference.

That's where I am at on the 29's. The need for more drivers is another problem as well.

Dave455 said:
I thought CO2 was a waste unless pushing over 1500 ppfd ??

1500ppm is the high end. You do not want to run more then that. Most will tell you that there is no difference between 1200 and 1500, so they prefer 1200 as the optimal number. Fresh air outside tends run right about 350, so I would consider anything 2x that amount worth trying if it's cost effective.

Humanrob · Nov 6, 2017

For some people apparently efficiency is the deciding factor, for me its grow style. If you have height limitations, or if you prefer to grow in a SCROG or do a lot of training to get your canopy even, then it's common sense that more smaller COBs will give you better coverage. If you like to grow trees, then perhaps the intensity/penetration of the V29s would serve you better. Since you mention a SCROG, my preference would be to spread the light out. I think the success I've been reading about of quantum boards is demonstrating that gentler light spread out has definite advantages.

I have a couple of COBs (Citi 1818's) running at 90w, but most of mine (Citi's and Cree's) are running around 50w and so far... to my great surprise, I really don't notice much difference between them. Just being honest. I was really concerned that my 75w and 90w COBs would fry my plants, but the girls seem to love them. I experimented with fewer hotter COBS because I was on a budget, and the price of the heatsinks was adding up. That said I'm planning another rebuild, and I'm going with more COBs run gently and spread evenly.

Speaking of bad efficiency, I'm still running an old pair of Optic 120's, which each have two Vero 18's. I believe the "120" refers to the total output, so that's 60w each COB. Three years old and they are kind of dinosaurs already. But they still grow weed, so that's a good thing.

HarryCooter · Nov 6, 2017

Humanrob said:
For some people apparently efficiency is the deciding factor, for me its grow style. If you have height limitations, or if you prefer to grow in a SCROG or do a lot of training to get your canopy even, then it's common sense that more smaller COBs will give you better coverage. If you like to grow trees, then perhaps the intensity/penetration of the V29s would serve you better. Since you mention a SCROG, my preference would be to spread the light out. I think the success I've been reading about of quantum boards is demonstrating that gentler light spread out has definite advantages.

I have a couple of COBs (Citi 1818's) running at 90w, but most of mine (Citi's and Cree's) are running around 50w and so far... to my great surprise, I really don't notice much difference between them. Just being honest. I was really concerned that my 75w and 90w COBs would fry my plants, but the girls seem to love them. I experimented with fewer hotter COBS because I was on a budget, and the price of the heatsinks was adding up. That said I'm planning another rebuild, and I'm going with more COBs run gently and spread evenly.

Speaking of bad efficiency, I'm still running an old pair of Optic 120's, which each have two Vero 18's. I believe the "120" refers to the total output, so that's 60w each COB. Three years old and they are kind of dinosaurs already. But they still grow weed, so that's a good thing.

Efficiency is what pushes our capabilities and brings down our cost to produce. So it is a significant factor for people like me that find the science far more interesting than the product or those producing for profit. Otherwise we would all be running a 600w hps and getting a gram per watt. Personally, I rarely ever even use it, I just enjoy growing. If someone found a way to start growing with lasers I may be the first sucker on board just to see it work.

I'm glad you mentioned quantum boards. This is something else I've been looking at implementing as well, but quite honestly, I havent seen anyone create an application I feel had a significant advantage over all cobs. I'm sure someone on here has a set up I would change my mind. That's why I love this forum.

morgwar · Nov 6, 2017

I run 12 v18s at @40 watts in a 3x3, fully plan to run 29 s but v18s are for guys like me who are budget minded and mainly growing for quality over quantity. Be sure to mix 3500k with 3000k.
If you've got the cash though, don't kid yourself and run the Vero 29s
It'll save you money in the long run because you'll eventually want to upgrade.

Shawndeadhead · Nov 6, 2017

Dave455 said:
I thought CO2 was a waste unless pushing over 1500 ppfd ??

I've heard that but I don't buy it, they can handle up-to 1500-1600 ppm without killing them, natural air comes in 300-400 ppm outside closer to higher number I think my normal home environment came in around 325 so if I'm almost triple my environment
The results I get off only 500w per 4x4 it has to be helping. Don't get me wrong it's not a cure all its not a patch, it's a tool of many factors that have to be right to be a successful indoor grower.
I honestly think the whole 1500ppm thing can from the companies selling you things and the general attitude of indoor growers push everything as hard as you can.
I don't run my nutrients much past 1100ppm either and get amazing sticky huge stinky flowers

Shawndeadhead · Nov 6, 2017

Humanrob said:
For some people apparently efficiency is the deciding factor, for me its grow style. If you have height limitations, or if you prefer to grow in a SCROG or do a lot of training to get your canopy even, then it's common sense that more smaller COBs will give you better coverage. If you like to grow trees, then perhaps the intensity/penetration of the V29s would serve you better. Since you mention a SCROG, my preference would be to spread the light out. I think the success I've been reading about of quantum boards is demonstrating that gentler light spread out has definite advantages.

I have a couple of COBs (Citi 1818's) running at 90w, but most of mine (Citi's and Cree's) are running around 50w and so far... to my great surprise, I really don't notice much difference between them. Just being honest. I was really concerned that my 75w and 90w COBs would fry my plants, but the girls seem to love them. I experimented with fewer hotter COBS because I was on a budget, and the price of the heatsinks was adding up. That said I'm planning another rebuild, and I'm going with more COBs run gently and spread evenly.

Speaking of bad efficiency, I'm still running an old pair of Optic 120's, which each have two Vero 18's. I believe the "120" refers to the total output, so that's 60w each COB. Three years old and they are kind of dinosaurs already. But they still grow weed, so that's a good thing.

I wouldn't call the 18s a dinosaur I run 16 of them with 500w per 4x4 and pull over 2lbs dry and cured per 4x4.
That pic is only week 3 flower

Shawndeadhead · Nov 6, 2017

morgwar said:
I run 12 v18s at @40 watts in a 3x3, fully plan to run 29 s but v18s are for guys like me who are budget minded and mainly growing for quality over quantity. Be sure to mix 3500k with 3000k.
If you've got the cash though, don't kid yourself and run the Vero 29s
It'll save you money in the long run because you'll eventually want to upgrade.

I get amazing results with half 4k and half 3k

Shawndeadhead · Nov 6, 2017

HarryCooter said:
Efficiency is what pushes our capabilities and brings down our cost to produce. So it is a significant factor for people like me that find the science far more interesting than the product or those producing for profit. Otherwise we would all be running a 600w hps and getting a gram per watt. Personally, I rarely ever even use it, I just enjoy growing. If someone found a way to start growing with lasers I may be the first sucker on board just to see it work.

I'm glad you mentioned quantum boards. This is something else I've been looking at implementing as well, but quite honestly, I havent seen anyone create an application I feel had a significant advantage over all cobs. I'm sure someone on here has a set up I would change my mind. That's why I love this forum.

I looked at the boards to and reason I went with the cobs was the spread isn't very big on those, though I've read some people build board lights and sticking a cob at each corner of their light system they built to spread out the light a little more since the dies on the boards are spaced so close, which is great gives you a ton of light in that area under them. These were my first lights I built so I wanted to keep it simple as possible.

More Vero 18 vs less 29 for 4x8

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