Methodical, scientific approach to nutrients and nutrient formulations discussion

Uncle Ben said:

Yep, as I've said a million times, cannabis is nothing more than a flowering foliage plant, reason why I also recommend (again at least a million times) the 3-1-2 ratio, which is what Dyna-Gro has been producing long before Big Mike was messin' in his drawers. It's called their Foliage Pro, 9-3-6. The beauty of Dyna-Gro unlike most is they are complete. It's a one stop shopping experience without the confusion.

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Is this a formula you use all the way through from start to finish? I'm a little confused here.

Uncle Ben said:

Well, maybe that cheesedick is finally getting it. What I don't understand is why 90% of "the others" are still touting a 2-1-5 as a "grow" food?

Why would you want a higher K than N? That's my question.

Regards,
Uncle Ben

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Truly, that is a great question, and something IMHO, nobody's answered with empirical evidence so far. One thing that is clear is that the theory behind it suggests that during flowering the plant needs much more of it than previously thought. I too, would love to hear some empirical proof on this. I've spent quite a bit of money on "bloom boosters (i.e. Big Bud, Overdrive, and Floralicious Plus) in the hopes of finding out why, or IF they work.

Fatman: Many fine posts!! Your writings force me to break out my chem book every time!! I have an EC question: How do you calculate an estimated EC number when you mix your ferts? Do you need to know the ionic properties of the element? Or is there a mho value of each element mixed in an aqueous solution with a given mole value referenced anywhere? I don't know, I'm so rusty in chem.... thanks for ur time.

Nutrient solutions conduct electricity, and the capacity of any solution to conduct an electric current its Conductivity. Conductivity is measured by a conductivity meter by placing a probe carrying two 5 electrodes into the solution and passing an alternating current through the solution between the electrodes. The current is carried by charged ions (cations and anions) in the solution. Divalent ions (with two charges like (C++ ) carry twice as much current as monovalent ions (like K+ ). The conductivity of the any nutrient solution will thus be directly proportional to the sum of the cation to anion charges in that solution. i.e. the number of anions and cations must match up. Extras do not count in the calculation.

Conductivity can be expressed in many different units, one of the most useful for growers is CF or the conductivity factor. The conductivity of a solution can be readily calculated from its composition, calculating the sum of the equivalents in mmol! litre, like this;

Cations Nh4+, K+, Ca++, Mg++, Na+, CF, EC
Concentration 0.5, 7, 3, 1, 0.25
mmols/litre
Multiply the ion charges by the respective Concentrations.
milliequivalents 0.5, 7, 6, 2, 0.25, 15 .75, 1.58

The conductivity of nutrient solution expressed in parts per million (ppm) can just as easily be
calculated by converting the ion concentrations to mol. Convert to mols by dividing the concentratic
ppm by the atomic weight of the nutrient. For example;

Cations Nh4+, K+, Ca++, Mg++, Na+, CF, EC
Concentration ppm 7, 273, 120, 24, 5.75
Atomic weight 14, 39, 40, 24, 23
Divide the ppm by the atomic weights to obtain the mmols/litre.
mmols/litre 0.5, 7, 3, 1, .25
Multiply te individual mmols/litre by the respective ion charge to obtain milliequivalents and add these together to obtain the CF.
milliequivalents 0.5, 7, 6, 2, .25, 15.75, 1.58

Conductivity Units

1 CF = 10 milliSiemens /cm normally written as the abbreviation 10 mS/cm
Another common unit is microSiemens/cm (uS/cm) :

Mcgician said:

Is this a formula you use all the way through from start to finish? I'm a little confused here.


Truly, that is a great question, and something IMHO, nobody's answered with empirical evidence so far. One thing that is clear is that the theory behind it suggests that during flowering the plant needs much more of it than previously thought. I too, would love to hear some empirical proof on this. I've spent quite a bit of money on "bloom boosters (i.e. Big Bud, Overdrive, and Floralicious Plus) in the hopes of finding out why, or IF they work.

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Pot, pot, pot potash.

Potassium is a key activator of many enzymes, especially those involved with carbohydrate metabolism. Potassium is also responsible for the control of ion movement through membranes and water status of stomatal apertures. Potassium therefore has a role in controlling plant transpiration and turgor. It is generally associated with plant "quality'" and is necessary for successful initiation of flower buds and fruit set. As a result the levels of potassium in nutrient solutions are increased as plants enter a 'reproductive' phase, and as crops grow into lower light levels, in order to maintain nutrient balance in solution.

Symptoms of potassium deficiency are typically, scorched spots
towards the margins of older leaves, along with generally low vigour and susceptibility to fungal disease.
Crops such as tomatoes can almost double their uptake during fruiting when supplied higher potash levels, but I have an opinion this is more due to potash allowing for better water uptake not due to any real nutrinet effect. More jus due to a ion balancinf effect.


The chief benefit I have found for potash increases in the budding phase also holds for the early veg state if done under low lighting (T-5). With low lighting the plants take up ammoniacal nitrogen. Ammonical nitrogen uptake causes a daily pH drop without the presence of sufficient buffers because the roots release H+ ions when they uptake ammoniacal nitrogen. Potassium carbonate fits that bill as a buffer. Keep it at a median levels such as with the Dyna-Gro just make since as the transpiration rate is high during the main part of the veg growth so potash us level are nearly as high then as during bloom.

However IMHO if you are running a super charged indoor system maxed out with 70 or more watts per square foot, a good nutrient system, dehumification, high temps and CO2 some extra potassium could be beneficial. However if your already having a problem with a pH rise while blooming your system is not upo to the extra potash.

When it comes to adding more phosphorus to blooming nutrients. The most common reason for this is due to poor growing conditions for the roots in most MJ growing systems. While phosphorus deficiencies restrict root development, most root problems in most MJ growing systems is most often related to physical problems (poor design) with the systems that lead to root rot and Pythium. Increasing phosphorus does not remove these physical problems with a system nor does it help with treating root rot or pythium problems.

^^^So, is what you're saying fatman is that during the flowering phase we should be supplying more potassium? These posts of yours are helpful, although somewhat encyclopedic. I'm sure if I read what it is you posted with a fine toothed comb, it'd seem completely obvious, but I'm not quite where you're at knowledge-wise yet, so it needs to be a bit more simplified for me. Are you saying that yes, more K is needed, but at the same time so are more enzymes and amino acids? If so, can you give me an actual nutrient guideline I might benefit more from? You've been a huge help so far in concept and understanding, but I need to understand in a more simplified form of what to, and NOT to use, and in what dosages. I hope I'm not being bothersome with this and, thanks again.

I would not worry about enzyme supplements with achemical nutrient system. The amino acids show some promise but are best used through out the grow not just at bloom. The extra potash is only need with a maxed out system. Meaning exceptional lighting, great nutrient delivery system, high temps, dehumidification and CO2.

So adding something like Dynagro Protekt 0-0-2 Potassium Silicate to the 9-3-6 would work?

I found this relevant discussion over at gardenweb
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg0708553831544.html

Of course, they are talking about fruit trees.

I'm using Foliage Pro now and I'm heartily glad I switched.

Potassium silicate is a good pH up when used occasionally but it is really a silica supplement more than a potash booster. I use a silica supplement. It increases structural strength of stems and provides some resistance to foliar diseases such as mold and mildew. I have virtually eliminated any need for netting or string to support weak stemmed plants by using silica. No I do not use oscillating fans for strengthening stems. I use sodium silica as it is much cheaper. Both sodium silicate and potassium silicate are very alkaline. Potassium sulfate or potassium nitrate are more commonly used to increase potash.

The common name for sodium silicate is water glass. eBay has some 1 gallon jugs for $13. http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=sodium+silicate&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&_odkw=water+glass+solution&_osacat=0#item20acaf198d

Black Strap Molasses instead of Cal-Mag Plus (Botanicare)

QUOTE cowboylogic "Also if you also use molasses then the cal-mag is not needed. The molasses takes its place."

How is that?

Allegedly the most touted molasses for use is Black Strap molasses. One teaspoon of Black Strap molasses contains about 9% of the daily needs of an adult.
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=118

The daily need is 1000 mg. That means each teaspoon contains 90 mg. Considering you want to add at least 90 mg/L for a 90 ppm boost that means adding one teaspoon per liter. Considering it takes 67 times as much Black Strap molasses to equal the amount of calcium in Cal-mag I question the statement that molasses takes its place. To actually add enough molasses to replace the calcium in the Cal-mag with the calcium from molasses would also add so much copper and Iron they would likely reach toxic levels. Yet alone the massive multiplication of bacteria that would likely drop the DO level down to around two or three ppm, maybe less.

Molasses? I don't think so.

Uncle Ben said:

I think you're getting caught up in theory and not real world application. Foliage Pro is a good product, use it as is. I've use 30-10-10 with no Ca all the time with excellent results. Of course hydro is different than soil. My well water is high in Ca and Mg so I take that into consideration.

Your rust colored dots in the leaves are probably due to too high PPM.

That is a credible link fatman.

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Thanks UB I have a tendency to over think. Ive lowered my PPMs and it looks like things are getting better.

Aqua Shield and Hygrozyme used with chemical Nutrients

(Quote) Michael Phelps

“So my Ph has been durastically changing lately, i will check it when i wake up in the morning and get it in between 5.4 and 5.8, then i will come home from work about 9 hours later and it will be down around 4.7-4.8, i will adjust it as soon as i get home, then again right before i go to bed, then as soon as i wake up in the morning its back down to the middle 4's again.”

“Im running 3 ladys, here is the specs.

8 gl bubbleponics
2 airstones
Gh nutes, lucas formula
Hygrozyme
Aqua Sheild
With a few drops of superthrive
Distilled water

I really need some help please.” (End quote)

Hopefully your using a mineral acid to lower your pH, i.e. phosphoric acid, nitric acid or even sulfuric acid rather than some weak organic acid like a citric or acetic acid.

You been following the advice of a soil or organic fertilizer user and have therefore added a bunch of seepage from composted chicken manure (Aqua Shield) and sewage sludge compost (Class A compost) with that has enzymes and complex chains of amino acids and a added "BACTERIA-FREE enzyme." This simply means the heat of composting allegedly kills the bacteria. Not the case. It merely lowers the bacteria count, kills seeds and lowers pathogen levels. "A" cultured enzyme is then added that is alleged to assist in controlling Pythium out breaks. Because of the heat of composting the sludge and compost is called stabilized. Not a wise choice to be adding to a chemical nutrient reservoir. There are guidelines for how soon a Class A compost piece of land can be used after the compost has been applied. It varies based upon the use of the land. If a harvest able food crop is grown on the land it must be something like 6 months or more after the compost is applied. IMO it is not something to grow MJ with. Quit using them and you will very likely see your pH problem nearly disappear.



(quote) "Hey Fatman i def appreciate all the help, you have been a life saver cause the ladys where rapidly growing then as the ph swings came on the growth greatly slowed, I keep the reservoir clean, i change out the water every 6-7 days, infact i actually did it last night. At this point i have to order h202 online cause i dont have any hydro shops in my area and i also have to wait till next friday for payday hahaha.

But your advice has def helped me, i removed the aqua shield from my reservoir, i did add alittle hygrozme to keep bacteria away until i get my h202, last night before i went to bed i checked my ph and it was at 5.6, when i woke up this morning and ran the test it had only gone down to 5.4, so i think all that chicken shit was what was causing the huge ph swings." (End quote)

Nearly all organic nutrients are packed with ammoniac nitrogen. When ammonia cal nitrogen is taken up by plants roots the roots maintain their ionic balance by discharging H+ ions. H+ is acid, acid lowers the pH. Consider that ammonia cal nitrogen is the result of the putrefaction of organic substances (NH3). Organic substances putrefy and become ammonium ions (NH4+), nitrifying bacteria turn the ammonium first to nitrite (NO2-), then to nitrate (NO3-). Nitrate is the nitrogen form of most of the Nitrogen in chemical fertilizers. Organic fertilizers are a soup of all the nitrogen forms. In reality a reservoir containing organic nutrients operates biologically like a wastewater treatment plant, especially if the water is aerated. That is just one reason why I am always surprised when anyone recommends organic nutrients be added to a chemical nutrient reservoir.

Why turn a well operating nutrient reservoir into a sewage treatment plant. That is like taking one step forward and then two steps backward. Then one needs to consider that the longer the reservoir containing organic ammonium nutrient goes without be changed the closer it resembles a sewage treatment system. After a period of 2 to 3 weeks it is a sewage systems treatment plant in essence as that is about the length of time it takes nitrifying bacteria to reach its peak in numbers. The nutrient manufacturers like to deceive people into thinking that does not happen by saying their preparations contain only beneficial enzymes and no bacteria. In reality most composting is done at temperatures between 50 and 65 Degrees Celsius and many pathogens are not killed unless temperature reach 62-63 or a few 66 degrees Celsius.

That is all fine and well as the deceptively avoid the pathogens issue but talk about beneficial and non beneficial bacteria, but the bacterias are present in air but the bacteria is alleged to have been killed/removed by them. I can pretty much guarantee that is not the case. If they do not specifically say the compost materials they use Class a compost. Class A composts is composted sewage plant sludge. There are scads of online reports about how quickly some of the bacteria repopulate the compost (instantly).

The Class A designation does not require testing of the compost before selling it. To sell the compost to the general public it must be Class A. I am only assuming they are ethical enough to be buying only Class A compost. They, not being the general public, can buy/get lower class composts that are normally given to the Commercial agricultural community. It is a non enforceable guideline which has only the power of requiring classification of the compost based upon the time the compost is maintained at set temperatures or higher for set periods of time so as to theoretically cause the killing of weed seeds, some specific bacteria and some pathogens.

It does not require testing and it does not cover all bacteria and pathogens just those that are obviously harmful to man such as salmonella. The Class of compost as set by the EPA really do not set the standards at all based upon what is or is not beneficial for plants growing in soil or hydroponically. The Class A, B and C are levels of stabilization mainly. The class A is just the most stable.

Stabilization through composting just means that after composting the sewage sludge or chicken manure or what have you will have been broken down enough that it is mainly all in the ammoniac stage rather than containing a lot of organic NH3. They test this merely by assuming if the level of volatile organics is reduced by 20 to 30 percent then that is good enough. They have never to my knowledge ever stated why they choose that percentage other than that is about the average reduction when sewage sludge or animal manure with a carbon to nitrogen content of 20:1 to 35:1 is composted.

Can't really trust MJ nutrient manufacturer marketers, as they love playing deception games. Especially when nothing can happen when the deception is exposed. Pretty hard to prove intent to deceive.

fatman7574 said:

The below listed formulation is what I am presently using for veg and flower. Plus trace nutrients not shown. It works very well on drain to waste systems and recirculated systems that are adjusted regularly and changed out regularly. I have rum full veg without change outs and full budding cycles without changes with minimal drops in yield. I used them for several years using pH analyzer/controllers and conductivity analyzer/controllers. They worked in my opinion a great deal better than the major manfacturers products normally touted in the forums. They are quite close to the Dyna-grow foliage pro. Many people just refer to it as the general 2:1:3 formulation. I do go heavier on the Magnesium as the Flora grow is at 50 ppm and I find that I have to add a lot of pottasium hydroxide during the last two weeks of budding with the lower magnesium levels. Dyna-gro Flora has its calcium at 200 ppm. The trace element concentration levels I maintain are consistent throught out the grow. I have also tweekedthe ratios so as to provide matching EC, TDS and Ph betwwen veg and budding as I found it caused less lags in growth during switch out of nutrient formulas. Plus it allowed not having to readjust the controllers or ph adjustment solutions etc. I had a computer program to do the iterations needed for the adjustments so it was basically a matter of just entering a few number inputs. I have not found any free spread sheets that will do the adjustment though. Todays software makes the days of manual calculations seem so long a go.

Would I recommend Flora Grow over GH or AN. I can say I have mixed nutrients for over 25 years and as far as I have seen the formulations I have come up with over the years that I have found perform the best for me so far are very near that of the Foliage Pro, not that of GH or AN. Presently I am beginning to work with fertilizers for high pressure aero and atomized aeros. Time will tell what happens there.

Bloom

PPM
Nitrogen 242
Phosphorus 86
Potassium 378
Magnesium 98
Calcium 194
Sulfur 130


Ounces

Part A
Calcium Nitrate 68.0
Potassium Nitrate 24.7

Part B
Potassium Nitrate 24.7
MonoPotassium Phosphate 28.8
Magnesium Sulfate 70.0

Volume Of Stock Concentrated Solution (gallons) 5
Dilution Rate 100
pH 5.8
EC 2.7
TDS 1904

Veg

ppm
Nitrogen 264
Phosphorus 81
Potassium 288
Magnesium 92
Calcium 259
Sulfur 122

Ounces

Part A
Calcium Nitrate 17.1
Potassium Nitrate 3.2

Part B
Potassium Nitrate 3.2
MonoPotassium Phosphate 5.1
Magnesium Sulfate 12.4

Volume of Stock Solutions (gallons) 1
Dilution Rate 100
pH 5.8
EC 2.7
TDS 1904

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Dam fatman you seem to be the hydro nut expert of all time, I sure as hell would not want to argue nuts with you haha.Have you ever considered selling your mixture to any of the members here?I would rather support a small independent than a big company.I can see it now The FATMAN Formula!

If you actually look at the analysis of GH FloraBloom and Flora micro you would see that Lucas was back ass back wards when he came up with his formula. He advised two parts Bloom to one part Micro. If he would have gone with two parts micro and one part bloom he would have gotten a ratio of 3.3, 1.6, 2 but it would have a mess of calcium at 333 ppm

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The newly adopted formula by the Lucas clan is 8ml FloraNova Bloom as I understand it at

8ml fnBloom
n 124
p 108
k 180
Mg 62

If i'm pick up on what ur putting down they wold be better off using FloraNova Grow for example at

8ml fnGrow
n 217
p 54
k 257
Mg 46

Gixxerboy said:

Dam fatman you seem to be the hydro nut expert of all time, I sure as hell would not want to argue nuts with you haha.Have you ever considered selling your mixture to any of the members here?I would rather support a small independent than a big company.I can see it now The FATMAN Formula!

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Haha If he had a nute solution for a recirculation non run to waste system I'd buy it. Ship it on over =P

Gixxerboy said:

The newly adopted formula by the Lucas clan is 8ml FloraNova Bloom as I understand it at

8ml fnBloom
n 124
p 108
k 180
Mg 62

If i'm pick up on what ur putting down they wold be better off using FloraNova Grow for example at

8ml fnGrow
n 217
p 54
k 257
Mg 46

Click to expand...

Backwards Lucas
1 Part FloraBloom 2 Parts FloraMicro
ppm
Nitrogen 333
Phosphorus 166
Potassium 200
Magnesium 50
Calcium 333
Sulfur 66
Iron 6.67
Manganese 3.33
Boron 3.33
Zinc 2.00
Copper .67

Ounces
Part A
Calcium Nitrate 28.4
Iron Chelate .90

Part B

MonoPotassium Phosphate 10.5
Magnesium Sulfate 6.7
Manganese Sulfate .179
Boric Acid / Solubor .245
Zinc Sulfate .117
Copper Sulfate .039
Ammonium Molybdate .001
Volume of Stock Solutions 1
Dilution Rate 100
Toal Salt Weight 3562
TDS 2079
EC 2.97
N:K 1.7
Ca:N 1:3
K 1.2
PH 5.7

Subscribed for a later read...

fatman7574 said:

Backwards Lucas
1 Part FloraBloom 2 Parts FloraMicro
ppm
Nitrogen 333
Phosphorus 166
Potassium 200
Magnesium 50
Calcium 333
Sulfur 66
Iron 6.67
Manganese 3.33
Boron 3.33
Zinc 2.00
Copper .67

Click to expand...

That makes alot more sense. Making even more sense, for about $28 plus postage, you could pick up 2 quarts of Dyna-Gro foods like a 9-3-6 and a 3-12-6 and be done with it, plus your plants will get a complete diet compared to the GH stuff and you'll have an all-in-one solution.

http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/Dyna-Gro-Foliage-Pro-9-3-6/productinfo/FE%2DDGFP/

UB

wooooooowwww..... i'm so lost. ok so the dyna gro is DEF what i'm gonna go with
but that said, i use the 9-3-6 for veg then 3-12-6 for flower or... or am i just... jeez, i'm just a kid. lol, i think i'm going to change my minor to botany so i may get sum uv this stuff.. please help . foliage for veg, then use it all the way thru, or that other one????? i'm sorry, i'm just , idk, more into smoking than growing, i LOVE growing, don't get me wrong ,but it takes quite a head on one's shoulders to do it right, and chemistry was never my specialty. i'm more of the artsy type. also, i'm planning on an outdoor grow of about 20 plants in cooler climes. how much should i buy. thanks again vets. you're the backbone of true potheadedness in this world (intellectual potheadedness, that is)

Use the Foliage-Pro 9-3-6 through out the grow. Do not use the bloom for MJ blooming. It is good for early veg growth such as the first few weeks when first introducing seedlings or cuttings to fertilizer as the extra phosphorus helps with early root growth. You can add some cal-mag to the Foliage-Pro during budding but it is usually not necessary. Uncle Ben does out door soil grows so you might want to click on his name his name and look at some of his threads/posts.

My out door growing season is way to short for out door grows. Nearly pure Ruderalis is all that will bud out in my climate outside. The temps drop to below freezing a long time before the hours of light drop below 12 hours. The average growing season is only 90 days long. Every few years we might break 100 days. About once every 12 to 15 years we might get 110 days with out a hard killing frost.

IF THERE WAS ONLY ONE SOURCE OF INFO YOU SHOULD READ REGARDING PLANT NUTRITION, pH, FERTILIZERS, WATER QUALITY, ETC., THIS IS IT!!!!!

Yes, I meant to yell. I just spent an hour reading and printing out most of these PDF files referencing my water analysis for both wells. AWESOME info. If you're new to growing, read this. If you have grown 100 gardens, read this.

http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/culturewater.htm

fatman7574, Dyna-Gro has quite a bit of Ca, so one must look at their water source as a source for Ca, and try to understand how it all inter-relates. The above link puts it all together.

There is nothing wrong with the 3-12-6 unless it starts to induce premature leaf drop. I agree though, you can use a 9-3-6 from start to finish. There is sufficient P and K to support flowering. The issue is to use a food that will support the most amount of leaf production and maintenance.

UB

hymem said:

UB & Fatman: Great info on NPK ratios. Appreciate the time and energy you are spending helping those with less experience.

If I were to run something like Dyna grows foliage pro(9-3-6) which has 2% calcium then how could I increase my calcium to get my N:C ratio closer to 1? It seems like all the calcium additives on the market also increase my N.

Click to expand...

Found this Gain Liquid Calcium.Anyone ever used or heard of it before?




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