M.O.B. Male
- Thread starter organicness
- Start date
Buddy232
Active Member
Neat post MYWhat. I think you may be recalling something TGA has written about his breeding efforts in the past? Once again I'm almost brand new to this whole growing thing, however I'm not new to biology.
A lot of great info has been incorporated into this thread, I'm personally impressed. I haven't seen much of this on RIU. I don't think the thread title has been addressed however. The fact is M.O.B., or any other "clone only" strain, will never have a legitimate male - it's conceptionally impossible. You can't complete meisos if you only start with one organism. Ie) If your looking to repopulate a sexually reproducing species, you NEED a male and a female from the begining.
Since M.O.B. and all other "clone only" strains are NOT a result of sexual reproduction, a male never exsisted and therefore never will. Any reports of one in the past are false and have to be a result of cross-contamination, mislabeling or other. Once again, it's impossible.
What you could change the thread title to though is 'M.O.B. Seeds?'. I'm sure people would love those, and as Tet already said, to make seeds of a "clone only" strain is remarkably easy in it's concept however it takes some actual scientific work/planning. Not just planting a million plants and yanking out the ones you don't like before you pollentate them. Sure we could all be commercial breeders if we had a barn of goons and felt like risking our freedom a 20 acre indoor garden. I could explain if folks are curious, however Tet has shared some great info and I doubt people want to hear my old stories and experiences.
A lot of great info has been incorporated into this thread, I'm personally impressed. I haven't seen much of this on RIU. I don't think the thread title has been addressed however. The fact is M.O.B., or any other "clone only" strain, will never have a legitimate male - it's conceptionally impossible. You can't complete meisos if you only start with one organism. Ie) If your looking to repopulate a sexually reproducing species, you NEED a male and a female from the begining.
Since M.O.B. and all other "clone only" strains are NOT a result of sexual reproduction, a male never exsisted and therefore never will. Any reports of one in the past are false and have to be a result of cross-contamination, mislabeling or other. Once again, it's impossible.
What you could change the thread title to though is 'M.O.B. Seeds?'. I'm sure people would love those, and as Tet already said, to make seeds of a "clone only" strain is remarkably easy in it's concept however it takes some actual scientific work/planning. Not just planting a million plants and yanking out the ones you don't like before you pollentate them. Sure we could all be commercial breeders if we had a barn of goons and felt like risking our freedom a 20 acre indoor garden. I could explain if folks are curious, however Tet has shared some great info and I doubt people want to hear my old stories and experiences.
Maine Brookies
Active Member
While you will never achieve a pure MOB male it is possible to create a stabilized IBL by crossing in a plant with characteristics that are dissimilar to the clone and then backcrossing through multiple generations with strict selection to MOB traits. It must work to some extent - it's the business model for Cali breeder collective like Reserva Privada and Cali Connection & individuals like Rezdog and JJ-NYC.
tet1953
Well-Known Member
And what are your thoughts regarding selfing the MOB with CS?
Buddy232
Active Member
Agreed on the first point for sure.
However the later to me sounds like junk canna-science. I'd like to read about those business models... I know of a couple people down here who have given RP and Rezdog strains a whirl so they must have some good stuff.
Simply put though, when you start with one single clipping there is nothing you can do except self pollinate. Any other efforts (such as those you listed) will result in non-genetically identical offspring. It's just the laws of copulation, gene swapping, whatever other techincal terms there are for it.
For example, even if I bred a non-complex strain today and picked a "phenotype", then took a single clone for myself and gave the two parents to the owners of RP/Rezdog. They would never, ever, ever be able to reproduce the genetic that my plant has. The odd's are in the billions. However if Tet and I were given a lab to "self" off of that single clone, we could recreate those genes identically, 100% no question.
I'm not saying the business model for those companies is bad... any breeding is fun stuff I guess. But if their goals are to take all female plants and find similar random males and try to back breed to create 'phantom males', have fun. I won't be buying your seeds because I know they won't represent whatever name attached to them. I'd like to read their models like I said though.
To me the easiest and best thing to do for the whole seed industry is selfing everything and only distributing so called feminized seeds. You'd be able to seperate the legitimate breeders from the fake. I don't even understand how these people work on projects and call them finished when even 1 in 2, sometimes 1 in 3,4,5 result in the desired plant. By selfing you eliminate all of that, your distribtuing a consistent product AND your keeping a ton of genetics for future projects/preventing everything else from being polluted.
Maine Brookies
Active Member
Tet - I have nothing against S1 seed (well, as long as it's not an AF) other than the fact that, in the long term, it could increase dependence on breeders as boys become increasingly rare. Specifically, as far as MoB goes, i'm not really a huge fan. Maybe it's my cut but i get tolerant to it much faster than the other strains i ran last time (a c99 knockoff and a no-blue Blueberry) although it does have nice bud structure and colors up really well.
Buddy - As far as IBL's go, let me share an experience with you. I have a friend from Brooklyn who's very hooked into the serious grow scene and has been running Sour Diesel since the late 90's. I don't want to brag but i know from Sour Diesel - there's a lot of stuff going around that's not it. A close friend ran Rez's Sour IBL and called me up to try it, thinking that it was pretty good. The bud structure wasn't exactly the same - the IBL seemed chunkier than i remembered the Sour being - but it nailed the taste and high. So... in my experience a good breeder can take a clone-only strain and transform it into normal breeding stock while retaining the most important characteristics.
Buddy - As far as IBL's go, let me share an experience with you. I have a friend from Brooklyn who's very hooked into the serious grow scene and has been running Sour Diesel since the late 90's. I don't want to brag but i know from Sour Diesel - there's a lot of stuff going around that's not it. A close friend ran Rez's Sour IBL and called me up to try it, thinking that it was pretty good. The bud structure wasn't exactly the same - the IBL seemed chunkier than i remembered the Sour being - but it nailed the taste and high. So... in my experience a good breeder can take a clone-only strain and transform it into normal breeding stock while retaining the most important characteristics.
Buddy232
Active Member
Those are great experiences Brookies! I completely agree with you that there is a lot of Sour D that "isn't it". In fact, when I first became a patient one of my biggest dissappointments is that I couldn't (still can't) find the Sour Disel that I was accustomed to getting prior. For a few years I had great 2nd hand access to med's and for about a year prior to the person losing touch with the grower they were running a "Strawberry SD". It had all the qualities of an old school NE style disel, however a mild fruity tinge at the peak of the inhale. Since then I can't locate that old NE style disel I use to randomly get as a youngster, nor the new SSD that this person grew. All other SD's grown now a days that I've come in contact with are ordered seed disels and aren't right. It seems all the old guys are keeping the real stuff in vaults.
This proves the general point I'm trying to get across I guess. Did your friend run that Rezdog Sour from seed (or the origins of the plant were from seed?). We know that when your buying "non-feminized" seeds, there are chances your going to have phenotypes. I guess you can't eliminate the possibility of phenotypes in "selfing" as transferring female pollen from one plant to another is truely an exploitation. It is my firm belief though that you would have a much better chance at stabilizing strains though in the methods that Tet and I have discussed. If that were the case, not only would the Rezdog SD that you ran and your friend ran both taste alike - they would look alike and for all other purposes be identical. I think that is a successful strain.
The fact that you don't have males "in the loop" doesn't limit breeding either, it improves it. Now when you want to cross two strains you don't have to deal with the undesireable genes in the middle. It's like picking the colors of your kids eyes now a days.
The more knowledgeable and resourceful that patients and caregivers get the more we can do, I have no doubt in the future we will be able to do this kind of breeding ourselves.If this were all to happen then possibly there can be a focus on the cannabis males of the world. (Research) It's them that hold the strong genes, however since one can pollenate thousands of times over, the rest get destroyed. Why do you think China favors men over women? Friggin Chinese.
MYWhat?
Active Member
I have the NYC Sour Diesel!
Not the SomaSeeds version ether. (doesn't have a fruity smell or taste)
I have been searching seed banks every where and reading other info out there. Trying to find the real deal and it seems to not be available anywhere. (or a clone only strain) I have been searching, so I don't have to keep the strain I have going while I sample other strains. Which lead to me doing research into CS and selfing.
The NYC Sour Diesel that I have has a wicked strong smell. It actually smells like diesel fuel. And the taste is something dreams are made of ! After researching this I believe what I have is Rez Dogs NYC or NE Sour Diesel. I can't know this for sure, it could have been played with genetically. Or it could be another version from an unknown home breeder, I'll never know for sure. What I do know for sure is everyone that tries it wants it ! And I don't want to loose it !
I lost a batch of clones from this Diesel after I got my new 8 bulb t-5. (Got to warm inside the dome) So I had to take another batch 2nd week into 12/12. They have rooted and all the extras I had have been given to fellow growers that where waiting to get them. I do plan to self this strain (as stated) so I should have seeds in the some what near future. I am left with 6 clones, enough for next round. But as soon as this batch is capable of taking clones I will.
Sorry for straying off the MOB topic.
MYWhat?
Not the SomaSeeds version ether. (doesn't have a fruity smell or taste)
I have been searching seed banks every where and reading other info out there. Trying to find the real deal and it seems to not be available anywhere. (or a clone only strain) I have been searching, so I don't have to keep the strain I have going while I sample other strains. Which lead to me doing research into CS and selfing.
The NYC Sour Diesel that I have has a wicked strong smell. It actually smells like diesel fuel. And the taste is something dreams are made of ! After researching this I believe what I have is Rez Dogs NYC or NE Sour Diesel. I can't know this for sure, it could have been played with genetically. Or it could be another version from an unknown home breeder, I'll never know for sure. What I do know for sure is everyone that tries it wants it ! And I don't want to loose it !
I lost a batch of clones from this Diesel after I got my new 8 bulb t-5. (Got to warm inside the dome) So I had to take another batch 2nd week into 12/12. They have rooted and all the extras I had have been given to fellow growers that where waiting to get them. I do plan to self this strain (as stated) so I should have seeds in the some what near future. I am left with 6 clones, enough for next round. But as soon as this batch is capable of taking clones I will.
Sorry for straying off the MOB topic.
MYWhat?
maineyankee
Active Member
cerberus
Well-Known Member
no worries. everyone loves good strains.. and mob (although i do like it a lot) is NOT the be all and do all of genetics.. lol
btw: anyone got any hariquin?
organicness
Member
Would you care to clarify, then, how that plant that is now clone-only came into being if there never was a male plant to help create it? And how it came into being without being a result of sexual reproduction?
Maine Brookies
Active Member
The same way most clone-only strains originate - someone takes non-MOB male, crosses it with non-MOB female and hits the genetic jackpot creating one plant with the characteristics that we know as MOB.
cerberus
Well-Known Member
I was and still hold hope that this wasn't a pig in the poe find and that there would be a genetic parent to play with. I have a little breeding project going with MOB now. not for any genetics plan except to pull one mother out of a batch of however many seeds. So, a male would be super fun and make the whole project easier, i can't imagine how it's needed to anyone.. The only person that would 'need' it would be the OG breeder..
organicness
Member
hmm, guess I must've misunderstood. Seemed he was saying that MOB was not the result of sexual reproduction, which sounds impossible to me. Seems it'd have to have been the result of a male and a female coming into contact with eachother, otherwise it's kinda Jesus like... virgin Mary and all. MOB appearing from nothing.
Buddy232
Active Member
I definently apologize for how I phrased it.
Of course the original MOB had to be a result of sexual reproduction. All resulting clones though are asexual - that's what I meant. 
Well, (for me) it's hard to imagine that it wasn't the pick of the litter after a few rounds of breeding... Thats without knowing much about it's lineage. Do you happen to have any info you could refer me to that could help me learn more about it?
Techincally, seeds did/do have to exsist from where the mother plant was originally sow/grown/selected from. (Whenever that was. MOB has been around a good long time, correct?) Obviously there were parents to those as well (and even if those parents came from clones - at one time in history they originated from seed). Have you, or anyone, tried doing extensive detective work regarding the origins?
This goes along with my whole "debate" for the most part. For example, if I was the creator of MOB. I could take sexually reproducing genetics of strain X and strain Y, breed them to my liking and find my MOB. (As well as maybe some other similar "phenotypes".) They could all be selfed and solidified into seed form and each could be handed out. I'd name the best one MOB and the others variants 1,2.
As a result, it and the variants would all be identical and can be bred by whomever with near perfect (genetic) reliability. Rather than breeding two families with an array of genetics in the middle, it would be sort of like being able to smush two plants together.
If this could be accomplished (legally) in say the world of mammals, there would be dog, horse, cat breeders all over this sort of system.I could save the rest of that original breeding seed stock for future reworking if I'd like and move on to a completely different project. Hopefully the REAL creators did that. I am willing to help you hunt Cerberus.
cerberus
Well-Known Member
I definitly apologize for how I phrased it.
Well, (for me) it's hard to imagine that it wasn't the pick of the litter after a few rounds of breeding... Thats without knowing much about it's lineage. Do you happen to have any info you could refer me to that could help me learn more about it?
Technically, seeds did/do have to exsist from where the mother plant was originally sow/grown/selected from. (Whenever that was. MOB has been around a good long time, correct?) Obviously there were parents to those as well (and even if those parents came from clones - at one time in history they originated from seed). Have you, or anyone, tried doing extensive detective work regarding the origins?
This goes along with my whole "debate" for the most part. For example, if I was the creator of MOB. I could take sexually reproducing genetics of strain X and strain Y, breed them to my liking and find my MOB. (As well as maybe some other similar "phenotypes".) They could all be selfed and solidified into seed form and each could be handed out. I'd name the best one MOB and the others variants 1,2.
As a result, it and the variants would all be identical and can be bred by whomever with near perfect (genetic) reliability. Rather than breeding two families with an array of genetics in the middle, it would be sort of like being able to smush two plants together.
I could save the rest of that original breeding seed stock for future reworking if I'd like and move on to a completely different project. Hopefully the REAL creators did that. I am willing to help you hunt Cerberus.
the story goes like this. (shortened and with NO proof)
a young soldier found themselves in the kush valley of afgan or pakistan in the late 80's early 90's (early 90's seems to be the time most old timers remember the strain showing up) this guy finds a farm of hashish producers and brings home several seeds of their stock. he then proceeds to work on this strain (with others, since i have spoken to a guy that claims to have 1st hand knowledge) and eventual finds this pheno. Now the og soldier man, is diagnosed with cancer during this whole process, and eventually succumbs to the disease (late 90's early 2000?) BUT before he passes away, he gives the final product (clones) out to all his patient/grower friends..
so it comes down to, if they/he was trying to create a whole line or just hunt and dig until finding the one magical plant..
again, the need for a male is a bit much but a male would make the whole process easier
Buddy232
Active Member
To be honest, I think I've heard that story before! However my condition leaves me prone to memory issues, so I could be imagining that. Thanks for filling me in, it's definently interesting and fully believeable.
If the solider brought home one satchel of seeds and proceeded from them, regardless of if the final product was a result of that first set of seeds or a bunch of generations - I think by now the original male has probably been put to rest no? That would leave however the potential of brother and sister seeds from the last generation. Wherever they may be, and if they were saved and labeled.
I think maybe with a lot of research you could narrow your search down closer than it's even been - however will you ever find them, or do they even still exsist. I'm not sure.What, (if you don't mind) would be your ideal breed? Couldn't you have some fun next year and start some MOB late and never harvest? I'm sure you'd have a decent chance of ending up with pollen.
Bud
Buddy232
Active Member
(To clarify though. I'm still not budging! The brother and sister seeds would be MOB genetics, but I would frown at them being crossed with strain "skunk" and being called MOB x Skunk. To me, call it whatever you want unless it's a result of hybridization! That's just me, and a lot of people would say your stealing their work. I say they are stealing mother natures work.
The brother and sister seeds would be MOB genetics, but I would frown at them being crossed with strain "skunk" and being called MOB x Skunk. To me, call it whatever you want unless it's a result of hybridization! That's just me, and a lot of people would say your stealing their work. I say they are stealing mother natures work.
Maine Brookies
Active Member
I'd buy the late 80's as the timeline for that story. I was seeing a shitload of black afgan hash stamped with "Free Afganistan" in gold foil until about '88 or so, which is when the Soviets left and we pulled our advisors.
cerberus
Well-Known Member
yep, and it matches the time line when we would have had boots on the ground, and one of the job's of those boots would have been make friends with the rebels.. ala hashish producers.. lol That is the story as I have pieced it together, its pretty grand but definitely not unreasonable, especially with the ridiculously large ex .mil population in the state..
buddy:
as for a male seed, well it would be 50/50 male female if it were seed. I would be interested in someone with a male clone, the thought being, its a male from the breeding process.. I doubt I'd trust the legitimacy of a seed in a bag with a label saying MOB.