Legalization May Not Be What You Think....

It is a step I would not feel comfortable taking. I am extremely well read on the topic and I could sit all day and explain to you how legalization will fail miserably at state levels. If you are a california resident, do not vote yes on it being fully legalized because you think mj is a non lethal plant, that has potential to raise your struggling state some tax money. Vote no because you enjoy the schools/hospitals/parks/libraries/roads you currently have. If the republicans ever get back into office (who hate marijuana) will simply pull all federal aid from cali.

I could go deep into the economics of it but the tax revenue people are saying could be raised from legalization is false. The governments estimates on how big the MJ business really is, is 10-120 billion a year. A very arguably number. A number devised from seizures and things like that. But who really knows. So one would automatically think, "wow put a 30% tax on it and the gov can raise easily in the billions." This is however wrong because these money #'s are drawn from current black market pricing, which is high due the risk involved for the manufactures/dealers/transporters etc. Frankly there is already a large tax on marijuana, the tax of getting caught. You take that illegal aspect away from it and it is just like any other plant. And any other legal consumable plant we have in our lives is rather cheap. A head of lettuce is maybe a pound and it costs $2.99. And unfortunately marijuana users do not use all that much product compared to other heavily taxed items. A heavy smoker may smoke 20-40 cigarettes a day. A heavy MJ user will smoke a fraction of this amount. The "100 billion dollar" marijuana industry people in favor of legalization for tax generating purposes are dreaming, this is the illegal market of $3-5,000 a pound marijuana. When legalized this number will automatically drop drastically.

My point is, heavy taxes will have to be applied to marijuana for it to make any real money. Which will in turn drive the black market farther underground and ultimately thrive.

so you vote to keep the biggest lie going because your scared of what MIGHT happen? Please reconsider your vote, I would like some real freedom and liberty in this country, how about you?

A whole lot of other states are following california, and are strongly considering full legalization, if not that, decriminalization, so let's see the goddamn republicans try to pull federal aid from half the fuckin' USA!!!


SLB

the price isnt going to go down to much there is going to still be a huge demand. how many people eat letuce 3 or 4 times a day? the tax on cigarettes is curently higher than the price of them in my state and they are talking about putting another 1$ raise on them. even if there is a black market people are going to buy marijuana that is taxed. the more the price of it goes down the higher the taxes will be. i dont think it would cause a significant drop in the price.
With the way the liberation of marijuana smokers is going now, by the time republicans get back into office the movement will be rolling full steam. people are waking up and understanding there is alot of responsible people who smoke. Its not the devils drug it was once made out to be.

lovemug said:

the price isnt going to go down to much there is going to still be a huge demand. how many people eat letuce 3 or 4 times a day? the tax on cigarettes is curently higher than the price of them in my state and they are talking about putting another 1$ raise on them. even if there is a black market people are going to buy marijuana that is taxed. the more the price of it goes down the higher the taxes will be. i dont think it would cause a significant drop in the price.
With the way the liberation of marijuana smokers is going now, by the time republicans get back into office the movement will be rolling full steam. people are waking up and understanding there is alot of responsible people who smoke. Its not the devils drug it was once made out to be.

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I don't live in California but I am watching this progress very carefully. I am in Montana which permits use of medical cannabis. I am an accounting and economic student and I can almost gaurentee you that the price of cannabis will fall greatly if fully legalized. Price will drop for several reasons more farmers will start to grow it which will cause more competition for wholesaler purchasers, then the market will be flooded with it. Prices start to fall until it has established a equilbrium (basic supply and demand concept). Another thing is you are taking out the "risk factor" in growing, transporting, distributing, cannabis. With risk always a higher reward, otherwise people wouldn't invest would they?

Hockey4848, I didn't think about the aspect of the govt pulling federal funds out of California. If the government did this then California will suffer greatly. Almost everything is subsidized in California from food stamps, section 8, to various programs. Imagine if this all stopped what do you think those people on subsidies would do? WIll the tax on Cannabis be enough? really think so? why isnt it now? California has a huge economy with a great number of people (possibly the biggest economy in the US) but they also have the biggest debt. California would have to double maybe even triple thier taxes on everything from sales to property taxes in order to make ends meet.

I am all for legalization of cannabis but I beleive baby steps is the way to do it. When you legalize something like this there is always unintended consequences. So if you do fully legalize it, maybe Mexico will become the biggest importer if cannabis. This would happen if US decides to tax it too much, no? Similar to domestic and foreign cars. You have to think this from an economic, governmental viewpoint. Most people are only looking at it from a social viewpoint and that is good but should not be your only basis for legalization of cannabis.

Even if the taxes generated are not what expected, all the money saved from not having to have to deal with all the peaceful marijuana users and arresting them, prosecuting, jailing, etc. will more than make up for it. All the long term health benefits will also reduce costs, people won't get head, neck/throat, and long complications as much (as long as they stay away from cigarettes). I think legalization is not what hockey4848 thinks it will be

jdizzle22 said:

Even if the taxes generated are not what expected, all the money saved from not having to have to deal with all the peaceful marijuana users and arresting them, prosecuting, jailing, etc. will more than make up for it. All the long term health benefits will also reduce costs, people won't get head, neck/throat, and long complications as much (as long as they stay away from cigarettes). I think legalization is not what hockey4848 thinks it will be

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exactly - there are your 'social costs' right there.. i really want some hemp cigs to get me off of tobacco..
even if the weed itself is $5 / oz. you still have all the other business associated with it - nurseries, clone/seed production, cafes and other venues, large scale farming and all of the other things that create jobs instead of destroy lives..!

People buying more doritos...
Classes on growing, the whole hemp industry producing fuel, paper, textiles, plastics, nutritious things, hemp lotions, so many things
The pros absolutely totally 100% blow the cons out of the water

hockey4848 said:

It is a step I would not feel comfortable taking. I am extremely well read on the topic and I could sit all day and explain to you how legalization will fail miserably at state levels. If you are a california resident, do not vote yes on it being fully legalized because you think mj is a non lethal plant, that has potential to raise your struggling state some tax money. Vote no because you enjoy the schools/hospitals/parks/libraries/roads you currently have. If the republicans ever get back into office (who hate marijuana) will simply pull all federal aid from cali.

I could go deep into the economics of it but the tax revenue people are saying could be raised from legalization is false. The governments estimates on how big the MJ business really is, is 10-120 billion a year. A very arguably number. A number devised from seizures and things like that. But who really knows. So one would automatically think, "wow put a 30% tax on it and the gov can raise easily in the billions." This is however wrong because these money #'s are drawn from current black market pricing, which is high due the risk involved for the manufactures/dealers/transporters etc. Frankly there is already a large tax on marijuana, the tax of getting caught. You take that illegal aspect away from it and it is just like any other plant. And any other legal consumable plant we have in our lives is rather cheap. A head of lettuce is maybe a pound and it costs $2.99. And unfortunately marijuana users do not use all that much product compared to other heavily taxed items. A heavy smoker may smoke 20-40 cigarettes a day. A heavy MJ user will smoke a fraction of this amount. The "100 billion dollar" marijuana industry people in favor of legalization for tax generating purposes are dreaming, this is the illegal market of $3-5,000 a pound marijuana. When legalized this number will automatically drop drastically.

My point is, heavy taxes will have to be applied to marijuana for it to make any real money. Which will in turn drive the black market farther underground and ultimately thrive.

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I apologize if I come off rude and dismissive, with that said while I hear where you are coming from you are absolutely incorrect.

As much as many republicans hate cannabis and go out of their way to re-enforce false beliefs, they absolutely would not cut federal funding, that would be akin to telling a state they are no longer part of the union. You are talking about at the very least the biggest supreme court battle ever and at worst civil war. If you would have said when the Republicans regain control they will roll in with the DEA and turn the place upside down, then that at least would be possible. But even that, while problematic for the state is actually a good thing, it will formally create the discussion at the federal level of how to deal with cannabis. The Feds have 3 options, ignore it, accept it, or fight it. If they choose the 3rd they are in for a lengthy legal battle with science, logic, and reason on the side of reform. You are also operating under the belief that if/when Cali passes legalization that the Democrats would pass some Federal laws before they lose majority making it even harder for the the Republicans to do anything. I know the responce will be Dems don't want to touch it, but if Cali moves forward they will be forced to. You argument is the same as what is said about if Canada were to legalized, that the US would cut ties, close borders, ect... It's simply not in the best interest of anyone to take such drastic measures and will not happen.

The economic aspect...Yes, we don't know how much money would actually be brought in, estimates are estimates. We do know that cannabis is this countries number 1 cash crop and it will bring in billions in tax revenue, just how many billions can be debated till the cows come home. Usually anti-legalization people take the exact opposite opinion that legal and taxed will cost more. You are on the right path however incorrect, prices will drop but most of the estimates base their figures not off black market pricing but simply $50 per ounce taxes. When legalized prices will drop, however not drastically in my opinion. The price will have to drop enough as to make the risk not worth the reward for the black market, but it will only drop to whatever price point that is. The market black or otherwise knows how much people are willing to pay and will get all they can. It's also your definition of drastically, right now an ounce of medical grade goes for around $400, depending on where you are, ect... but $400 seems to be average. I would expect the price to drop to around $150 with a $50 tax. So all together it would cost around half of the current cost, so the black market would dry up due to less people willing to risk it along with losing their customers to legit businesses, the profit simply wouldn't be there for them.

The GOP has a lot of libertarians in it, not just "moralists". If you say with a broad brush "Republicans" then you don't know much about thr GOP, don't know much about the innerworkings of the party, or what it is composed of, etc. etc. Gary Johnson (former GOP Gov of NM) may be the most vocal about wanting legalization, and Ron Paul CERTAINLY is a libertarian, but a lot of GOP agree but lack the balls to admit it, because they are truly out of touch with their constituancy on this issue. Meaning it wouldn't damage them in reelection near as much as they think in a lot of districts. Funny thing I learned over the years, most of the Dead Heads I have known thru the years tend to fall on the Republican side on the majority of issues. So don't discount the Republicans. Notice in this article, that I'm sure you've all seen if you keep up with the issue, that Gary Johnson was speaking to LAW STUDENTS. http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2010/mar/20/former-gop-governor-wants-pot-legal/
I remind you that many LAW STUDENTS LATER BECOME OUR JUDGES, Congressmen, etc. Thats important to note. The war on this plant needs to end, and folks are coming around. The more who have tried it, the more know it is safer than alcohol. Federal decriminalization would be a good first step and legalization nationally of medicinal use. It would be if not for international treaty. But thats a whole nother discussion.

P.S. not to mention an excerpt from cannabisnews: http://www.cannabisnews.org/united-states-cannabis-news/legalized-pot-a-tough-sell-in-governors-race/
"Republican Tom Campbell, for example, has denounced the government’s war on drugs in past campaigns, saying the billions of dollars that go to eradication and imprisonment would be better spent on treatment. Opponents, including Democratic Sen. Dianne Feinstein, whom the former South Bay congressman unsuccessfully challenged in 2000, have attacked him as soft on drugs and a would-be legalizer." How do you like them apples? The "liberal" Feinstein is now a conservative?? and the "conservative" is an outright libertarian on this issue. Funny how that works isnt it?

ford442 said:

exactly - there are your 'social costs' right there.. i really want some hemp cigs to get me off of tobacco..
even if the weed itself is $5 / oz. you still have all the other business associated with it - nurseries, clone/seed production, cafes and other venues, large scale farming and all of the other things that create jobs instead of destroy lives..!

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SO you want to replace one habit with another? Something doesnt seem to add up there. I don't think cannabis would be any healthier for you than tobacco provided the same method is used other than the addiction.

As for social cost you have to think from the other side as well, If pot did become fully legal then how many people would lose thier job in the government and "war on drugs". You are saying many folks will be hired in the industry of farming, cloning, etc etc. I think it will even out and then down the road several years, more people will lose their jobs than because how many farmers does it take to grow 100 acres of product? In Montana only takes 1 or maybe 2. So all the people who will be fired or laid off in governement, treatment centers, etc etc will outnumber the folks who will be hired in the cannabis industry. Then we have the next generation of the tabacco industry. Right now the price is high and should be due to the risk but will fall with legalization. Say to 5 dollars an oz how many folks can that company hire selling it for that much? The math just doesn't add up.

I am a democrat (most of the time) and I agree with nlblue about republicans. DOnt group them all up together , thats like saying white men can't jump or some stereotypical like that. I remember I read an artile l(only if I could find it) that more republicans favor legalization of cannabis over democrats. That was several years ago and dont know if that holds water today.

CGs

i want to have cannabis smokes because they are not addictive and do not cause cancer..
i don't care if DEA officers lose their jobs.. did the spanish inquisition all get pensions afterward? the SS? i hate the "war on drugs" - i cannot condone it.. they can all go dig holes and then fill them in for a living..

caregivers said:

SO you want to replace one habit with another? Something doesnt seem to add up there. I don't think cannabis would be any healthier for you than tobacco provided the same method is used other than the addiction.

As for social cost you have to think from the other side as well, If pot did become fully legal then how many people would lose thier job in the government and "war on drugs". You are saying many folks will be hired in the industry of farming, cloning, etc etc. I think it will even out and then down the road several years, more people will lose their jobs than because how many farmers does it take to grow 100 acres of product? In Montana only takes 1 or maybe 2. So all the people who will be fired or laid off in governement, treatment centers, etc etc will outnumber the folks who will be hired in the cannabis industry. Then we have the next generation of the tabacco industry. Right now the price is high and should be due to the risk but will fall with legalization. Say to 5 dollars an oz how many folks can that company hire selling it for that much? The math just doesn't add up.

I am a democrat (most of the time) and I agree with nlblue about republicans. DOnt group them all up together , thats like saying white men can't jump or some stereotypical like that. I remember I read an artile l(only if I could find it) that more republicans favor legalization of cannabis over democrats. That was several years ago and dont know if that holds water today.

CGs

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Smoking marijuana is ABSOLUTELY less damaging than tobacco (and is NOT physically addictive, and is considered less addictive in general than even coffee). In fact, THC is so good for your system that a life time of smoking marijuana will not increase your risk of head, neck/throat, and lung complications compared to the non smoking populace. Not to mention (weird phrase?) all the long term health benefits it may provide, with all the evidence that THC can fight the onset of Alzheimers, many kinds of cancer (not even counting how powerful it must be to be able to fight the carcinogens in the smoke to the point it doesn't increase your risk any of the respiratory system complications that cigarette use can lead to), and tumor growth. Marijuana use can also be used to fight depression and anxiety without the many side effects of prescription pills, and it even shows promise in helping those with asthma!!! ASTHMA? HOLY SHIT! * studies also show that children born to mothers that smoked marijuana throughout their pregnancy were not effected by it!!! I could go on about this kind of stuff all day, but hopefully since you are registered on a site like this, you already know most of this (although I guess not since you said something silly like - "I don't think cannabis would be any healthier for you than tobacco")

Back to the point..?
Sure there are some people that will try marijuana once its legal, but most people that will do it already do it and those people who care enough already know how to pass drug tests (hopefully with legalization we will at least be able to do away with random drug testing and maybe even develop some way to measure marijuana intoxication like we can with alcohol). I think the idea of the industry hiring tons of people to do the job and then a little while later getting rid of most of them because of cost efficiency issues is silly, they would figure that out before they got started. If big huge farms won't be able to grow for the general populace, then mom and pop shops will kick ass at it (because they already do).

PS: The people that work for the government/state that would lose their jobs to legalization don't deserve them in the first place (put them to work against people that are a harm to society, don't send them after nonviolent drug offenders). Most prisons now are privately run I believe, and they have big lobbying power in California that they useto keep marijuana illegal so they can continue to be in big business putting peaceful pot heads away for years.

fuck the pros and fuck the cons....if anyone tjhinks this drug should be anything but 100% legal, should go do a bout 3 or 5 yrs in a fuckin jail cell, then weigh your goddam pros and cons. fuckin legalize like booze so we can get high without going back to prison, or lose my house,or get my fuckin dogs shot, ect. ect. theres the goddam pros...im sorry, what were the cons again? another addiction?..lung cancer? dont sound no worse than prison to me.

Honestly to me you can throw away all the politics and what it comes down to for most people is the piece of mind you get from legalization just like grow plenty just said I personally want to be able to enjoy something that grows naturally in my own house and not have to be afraid of getting taken away from my family and friends.. if your a smoker then that should outweigh the political tax crap IMO

yes.. it goes without saying that peace of mind comes from ending the prohibition..

again - i will add that it really goes beyond the puffing and passing - california will be able to grow tons of hemp and study how to make plastic, gasoline, building materials - a huge list of industries will be able to take advantage of it as a properly renewable resource.. we can stop cutting down trees for paper and using non-renewable oil for everything...!

nlblue said:

The GOP has a lot of libertarians in it, not just "moralists". If you say with a broad brush "Republicans" then you don't know much about thr GOP, don't know much about the innerworkings of the party, or what it is composed of, etc. etc. Gary Johnson (former GOP Gov of NM) may be the most vocal about wanting legalization, and Ron Paul CERTAINLY is a libertarian, but a lot of GOP agree but lack the balls to admit it, because they are truly out of touch with their constituancy on this issue. Meaning it wouldn't damage them in reelection near as much as they think in a lot of districts. Funny thing I learned over the years, most of the Dead Heads I have known thru the years tend to fall on the Republican side on the majority of issues. So don't discount the Republicans. Notice in this article, that I'm sure you've all seen if you keep up with the issue, that Gary Johnson was speaking to LAW STUDENTS. http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2010/mar/20/former-gop-governor-wants-pot-legal/
I remind you that many LAW STUDENTS LATER BECOME OUR JUDGES, Congressmen, etc. Thats important to note. The war on this plant needs to end, and folks are coming around. The more who have tried it, the more know it is safer than alcohol. Federal decriminalization would be a good first step and legalization nationally of medicinal use. It would be if not for international treaty. But thats a whole nother discussion.

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Was going to mention Gary Johnson myself and explain what you put but you said it better than i would have anyway. I would add this about the Republicans or conservatives out there and to top it off i live in the bible belt in GA but most of us would rather see it legalized. the party has been takin over and the party is out of step with its own people.

Can someone explain to me if the international treaty on legalizing drugs was ratified by Congress? i mean there supposed to be anyway according to the Constitution if it still means something

call me paranoid but i think this shit is bogus. no one would have this point of view on here, while being from a legitimate source.

its so easy to propagandize americans because they believe its not present in their country. if this isnt bullshit, be on the lookout because this is a very effective way to make people doubt a cause, or even qather info on what facts people argue back with.

this dude is a total fake. he joined RIU over a year ago, posted and deleted one other thread, and then this stupid shit. you guys better watch your backs because unanimity can be a valuable tool...