Legality of Fundamental changes to08 MMM Act, Peoples Initiatives and Michigan

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bob harris

Well-Known Member
derfmasta said:
I was in on the vote no thread also. But I whole heartedly agree with tomcat. I'm going to say it again we need to start flexing our civil responsibly and use the protections this law affords us the police are breaking our law worse than any patients ever have. We need to sue civilly any department who abuses thier power. That is the only way we will get full protections. It's just most people cannot afford or don't realize they have that option.
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I agree. But how do you do that?

The police are making arrests based upon the AG's opinion of whats legal/illegal...Although it is technically not law, an AG opinion is the basis the police work from. And the only way to turn that around is to get the courts to over rule the AG.

Unfortunately, you do need people arrested in order for the courts to get involved...and that is a shame. And screaming "unjust arrest" won't get the people "un arrested", or slow down the arrests. Getting a judge to listen in court, and having new bills come out as a result of those lawsuits, will. So long as the bills are fought for and positively worded.

And I agree that If you wish to start using the protections supplied in the law..go ahead. But caution you that you may make yourself the next lawsuit. Until the law is clarified more, the rights as we would like to see them, differ from our rights as the AG would like to see them. And LEO is going to follow the AG's lead. So do what you wish..but be careful out there.
 
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derfmasta

Member
Civil court we need to file lawsuits suing for damages. We need to make it way more costly for them to arrest patients than they get from the busts. Like bob said use thier games on them. We all need to come together on this. If we go by the afford to profit model. We cannot win. I'm ready to help fight with you. I'm just saying the guy that got fired from wallmart was the flake that started this snowball now its a frigin freight train.
 
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derfmasta

Member
We have plenty of violations on thier part. We act like this law says nothing. And we are destined to hide for ever. We have rights if we file they have to defend. We cannot just settle out of court. We need to bring our A game and take risks. We can and will win.
 
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bob harris

Well-Known Member
derfmasta said:
Civil court we need to file lawsuits suing for damages. We need to make it way more costly for them to arrest patients than they get from the busts. Like bob said use thier games on them. We all need to come together on this. If we go by the afford to profit model. We cannot win. I'm ready to help fight with you. I'm just saying the guy that got fired from wallmart was the flake that started this snowball now its a frigin freight train.
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The guy that got fired from wal mart was tragic. But it is only one guy, guys die in battles..sorry to be that "heartless" but they do. And my point is, if the survivors wish to win the battle, they leave the fallen comrade behind, and continue the fight. Yes, they care for the wounded, yes they bring "everyone home" after the battle.

Remember Viet Nam? Remember how one of the VC's favorite tactics was to wound an American soldier, then kill every one that tried to help him? They could have just killed the guy once they shot and wounded him, but they knew that would be less profitable to their cause than picking off the rescuers.

I say, don't worry about the wounded guy right now. We have to get the sniper before we can do anything for him.....Timmahhs point of view would be no..we have to save him, even if we all die trying.

If we all die trying to save the one man, we fight no more. Heartless as it sounds, you honor the fallen after a battle, not during....
 
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derfmasta

Member
I whole heartedly agree don't get your a$$ shot off. But we need to pick that m-60 up fire back. All the while scouting the flanks to find weaknesses and exploit. We need to file suits in civil court that's firing back. Not on the opinion of the vc sniper. But with all the knowledge we get from our scouts.
 
Timmahh

Timmahh

Well-Known Member
derfmasta said:
I was in on the vote no thread also. But I whole heartedly agree with tomcat. I'm going to say it again we need to start flexing our civil responsibly and use the protections this law affords us the police are breaking our law worse than any patients ever have. We need to sue civilly any department who abuses thier power. That is the only way we will get full protections. It's just most people cannot afford or don't realize they have that option.
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we agree 100% on that point Derfmasta.
 
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bob harris

Well-Known Member
gladstoned said:
Can't afford it is right. Most can't afford to even go to trial and are forced to plea bargain.
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When the right case comes along..the defendant won't need money. Every big name defense lawyer in the State is waiting for the opportunity to make a winning argument on this law.

Thing is, a Jeffery Fieger kinda guy isn't going to defend a guy that lunged at a cop with a knife and got shot. That just plain loses in front of a jury.

He also isn't going to defend a guy growing outdoors in an unsecured dog kennel...

I've said it a million times. When someone following all of the laws gets busted, a Big name defense attorney will jump at the chance to defend them.
 
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derfmasta

Member
This is true we need stand up people to defend stand up patients. But in civil court when we file on thier violations the defense lies on them. Also in civil court you just need prove they made a violation of the law. They have criminal court we have civil court. One we have to defend the other they have to defend
 
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tomcatjones

Active Member
bob harris said:
When the right case comes along..the defendant won't need money. Every big name defense lawyer in the State is waiting for the opportunity to make a winning argument on this law.

Thing is, a Jeffery Fieger kinda guy isn't going to defend a guy that lunged at a cop with a knife and got shot. That just plain loses in front of a jury.

He also isn't going to defend a guy growing outdoors in an unsecured dog kennel...

I've said it a million times. When someone following all of the laws gets busted, a Big name defense attorney will jump at the chance to defend them.
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but even the blatant violation of HIPPA, the exectutive order to switch control and money over to LARA and the general fund respectively.

the list goes on. cops not accepting paper work.. etc.

and more than just one guy has been fired for dropping dirty while owning up to and being proud of his medical card...

<--- this guy.

and i cant afford a lawyer..
 
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purklize

Active Member
"Also, in regard to § 4(e), the parties disagree whether a registered
primary caregiver may receive compensation for the costs associated with assisting any
registered qualifying patient in the “medical use” of marihuana or whether a registered primary
caregiver may only receive compensation for assisting the qualifying patients with whom he or
she is connected through the MDCH registry process. Because of our conclusion that the
“medical use” of marihuana does not include the “sale” of marihuana, we need not, and therefore
do not, resolve this dispute."
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Can someone translate this? What the hell does this mean? Does it say that they consider all compensation from patient to caregiver, both with a registry connection and without, to be "sale of marijuana" and therefore illegal? (Even though there's no law against the sale of marijuana in Michigan).

Now here's the law...

(e) A registered primary caregiver may receive compensation for costs associated with assisting a registered qualifying patient in the medical use of marihuana. Any such compensation shall not constitute the sale of controlled substances.
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http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(xi3tcu55lwripr45zsnqrt55))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-333-26424

Seems pretty clear that it's legal for any caregiver to sell to a patient without signing them up, that the only reason to sign up a patient is to increase your plant count/weight limits.
 
Timmahh

Timmahh

Well-Known Member

  • "Also, in regard to § 4(e), the parties disagree whether a registered
    primary caregiver may receive compensation for the costs associated with assisting any
    registered qualifying patient in the &#8220;medical use&#8221; of marihuana or whether a registered primary
    caregiver may only receive compensation for assisting the qualifying patients with whom he or
    she is connected through the MDCH registry process. Because of our conclusion that the
    &#8220;medical use&#8221; of marihuana does not include the &#8220;sale&#8221; of marihuana, we need not, and therefore
    do not, resolve this dispute."


    ​


    ​
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They are saying because the trial (that was from CoA McQueen from Mt P) did not have to deal with anything to do with a Cg/Pt transfer, they stand mute on that part of the act.

But again my issue here is they went outside the narrow ability on how the CoA was to define a Peoples Initiative. They had to. with Sale not being part of the CSA< thus NOT Illegal per the CSA, then there was no reason to create an exclusion for sale in the MMM Act. Note: the PHC, it has everything that is outlined in Medical Use. Note, no sale for either the PHC or MMM A in Med Use.

the only reason a CG was tagged with accepting money is not a sale, is IF that CG was ONLY a CG, not a Using Pt.

trust me, you read it with this simple interpretation and understood by the people of the state of Michigan, there is no grey area who can transfer with how for remuneration..
That said the crocked bastards will bust you on 1/2 the counties in the state for it and the other 1/2 wont likey do it.

That is grey areas Caused by the States outright failure to implement the Act. the proof in the puddin if you will.

purklize said:
Can someone translate this? What the hell does this mean? Does it say that they consider all compensation from patient to caregiver, both with a registry connection and without, to be "sale of marijuana" and therefore illegal? (Even though there's no law against the sale of marijuana in Michigan).

Now here's the law...



http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(xi3tcu55lwripr45zsnqrt55))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-333-26424

Seems pretty clear that it's legal for any caregiver to sell to a patient without signing them up, that the only reason to sign up a patient is to increase your plant count/weight limits.
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one thing to keep in mind. the ONLY difference between a CG and a PT is ONE assigned Pt... so ONE PERSON is the differance between Caregiver that can accept remuneration and a self growing pt that cant.

add in a few dozen visiting patients that cant get meds while they are here.
Explain how the Visiting Pt gets meds per the CoA if he can not get a Caregiver (which they cant because they are not a RESIDENT for atleast 30 days.
 
cephalopod

cephalopod

Well-Known Member
What about torte laws?
derfmasta said:
Civil court we need to file lawsuits suing for damages. We need to make it way more costly for them to arrest patients than they get from the busts. Like bob said use thier games on them. We all need to come together on this. If we go by the afford to profit model. We cannot win. I'm ready to help fight with you. I'm just saying the guy that got fired from wallmart was the flake that started this snowball now its a frigin freight train.
Click to expand...
 
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purklize

Active Member
"Also, in regard to § 4(e), the parties disagree whether a registered primary caregiver may receive compensation for the costs associated with assisting any registered qualifying patient in the &#8220;medical use&#8221; of marihuana or whether a registered primary caregiver may only receive compensation for assisting the qualifying patients with whom he or she is connected through the MDCH registry process. Because of our conclusion that the &#8220;medical use&#8221; of marihuana does not include the &#8220;sale&#8221; of marihuana, we need not, and therefore do not, resolve this dispute."
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They are saying because the trial (that was from CoA McQueen from Mt P) did not have to deal with anything to do with a Cg/Pt transfer, they stand mute on that part of the act.
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I don't know... it sounds more to me like they're saying that no caregivers are allowed to sell... they say you can receive compensation for assisting with "medical use" as a caregiver, but that "medical use" does not involve sale... really sounds like they're condemning it in vague terms as illegal.

That said the crocked bastards will bust you on 1/2 the counties in the state for it and the other 1/2 wont likey do it.
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What courts have ruled that P2P is legal after the CoA ruling? I haven't heard about this. I'd think the prosecution would just immediately appeal to the CoA and get an automatic victory.
 
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tomcatjones

Active Member
purklize said:
I don't know... it sounds more to me like they're saying that no caregivers are allowed to sell... they say you can receive compensation for assisting with "medical use" as a caregiver, but that "medical use" does not involve sale... really sounds like they're condemning it in vague terms as illegal.



What courts have ruled that P2P is legal after the CoA ruling? I haven't heard about this. I'd think the prosecution would just immediately appeal to the CoA and get an automatic victory.
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Berrien County I believe - a patient to patient transfer without renumeration occurred..

now about your first point about 4.e.

THE MQUEEN COA RULING DOES NOT RULE ON CG2PATIENT TRANSFERS, DELIVERY, COMPENSATION, ANYTHING..

so it even says in the document itself..

page 14, footnote 16.

http://coa.courts.mi.gov/documents/opinions/final/coa/20110823_c301951_67_301951.opn.pdf


no store that has a CG behind the counter should have closed so long as they weren't greedy bastards trying to get a 20 percent profit on top of compensation..

that is the distinction no one seems to understand.
 
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tomcatjones

Active Member
Timmahh said:
They are saying because the trial (that was from CoA McQueen from Mt P) did not have to deal with anything to do with a Cg/Pt transfer, they stand mute on that part of the act.

But again my issue here is they went outside the narrow ability on how the CoA was to define a Peoples Initiative. They had to. with Sale not being part of the CSA< thus NOT Illegal per the CSA, then there was no reason to create an exclusion for sale in the MMM Act. Note: the PHC, it has everything that is outlined in Medical Use. Note, no sale for either the PHC or MMM A in Med Use.

the only reason a CG was tagged with accepting money is not a sale, is IF that CG was ONLY a CG, not a Using Pt.

trust me, you read it with this simple interpretation and understood by the people of the state of Michigan, there is no grey area who can transfer with how for remuneration..
That said the crocked bastards will bust you on 1/2 the counties in the state for it and the other 1/2 wont likey do it.

That is grey areas Caused by the States outright failure to implement the Act. the proof in the puddin if you will.




one thing to keep in mind. the ONLY difference between a CG and a PT is ONE assigned Pt... so ONE PERSON is the differance between Caregiver that can accept remuneration and a self growing pt that cant.

add in a few dozen visiting patients that cant get meds while they are here.
Explain how the Visiting Pt gets meds per the CoA if he can not get a Caregiver (which they cant because they are not a RESIDENT for atleast 30 days.
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Timmahh, i had a senator tell me flat out that an out of stater should either bring it with him or be out of luck.

i was stunned,


i also told him that i get grow rights from up to 5 patients, i don't get to help only 5. he didn't like that i told him he wasn't understanding correctly.
 
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purklize

Active Member
tomcatjones... yeah it seems that way... but it's just a really odd statement from the CoA... they really seem to be trying to say that Cg2Pt is illegal... which would be an absurdly big stretch of course... it's just odd.
 
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