Layoffs coming...

Carthoris said:

It really makes me scratch my head when people say the New Deal ended the depression or caused the good times in the USA. WW2 started, we were the only industrialized country who was not completely assraped in a few years on either side. WW2 ended, we were the only country who was not assraped. We were almost totally untouched aside from the loss of human life. We had more factories and manufacturing than we had before the war, we had less people so unemployment wasn't a problem, our farms weren't destroyed/pillaged. We essentially had the entire world by the balls. We controlled the world after WW2 as the only country in the world who came through whole. The honest truth is the bad times of others is what put us on top, not any imaginary benefits from moving towards socialism.

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yeah cause Austerity works everytime...

(...)

abandonconflict said:

yeah cause Austerity works everytime...

(...)

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when austerity is done with an eye towards actually achieving the goal of actually reducing debt it works, not every time, cuz sometimes you fall off a ladder and break your leg, sometimes theres a hurricane that busts up millions of bucks worth of shit and sometimes theres a war.

if in-comings stay steady, and you reduce out-goings, deficits reduce.

if you start breaking even you can eventually start paying off debt untill you are solvent again.

THAT works every time, as long as nothing else fucks up the program.

FAKE austerity, like the current Greece program (cuts to social programs and breaking pension deals, while continuing mad spending on bullshit) or the current California program (Ditto) are designed to do one thing:

pinch the poor and the struggling, until they will vote for anything and anyone to stop the hemorrhaging.

it's politics as usual if you dont cut the pork before you start grinding down the social programs which cost far less, and actually do something for people.

Dr Kynes said:

when austerity is done with an eye towards actually achieving the goal of actually reducing debt it works, not every time, cuz sometimes you fall off a ladder and break your leg, sometimes theres a hurricane that busts up millions of bucks worth of shit and sometimes theres a war.

if in-comings stay steady, and you reduce out-goings, deficits reduce.

if you start breaking even you can eventually start paying off debt untill you are solvent again.

THAT works every time, as long as nothing else fucks up the program.

FAKE austerity, like the current Greece program (cuts to social programs and breaking pension deals, while continuing mad spending on bullshit) or the current California program (Ditto) are designed to do one thing:

pinch the poor and the struggling, until they will vote for anything and anyone to stop the hemorrhaging.

it's politics as usual if you dont cut the pork before you start grinding down the social programs which cost far less, and actually do something for people.

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In other words, it never works.

abandonconflict said:

In other words, it never works.

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The US isn't doing any better than Ireland (relatively speaking) and we're cutting like Edward Scissorhands...and we'll have a balanced budget in 2 years.

Austerity would be a necessary part of your Libertarian Socialism btw retard.

Carthoris said:

Doesn't the population of workers grow by 125k-130k per month?

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Only when when a democrat is president.

Harrekin said:

The US isn't doing any better than Ireland (relatively speaking) and we're cutting like Edward Scissorhands...and we'll have a balanced budget in 2 years.

Austerity would be a necessary part of your Libertarian Socialism btw retard.

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No. We're in debt because of war. ireland is just poor because, well, Ireland doesn't produce much. The austerity measures would first apply to the military and federal police agencies in libertarian socialism, then to corporate welfare.

Carthoris said:

Doesn't the population of workers grow by 125k-130k per month?

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weren't the layoffs supposed to be coming?

Dr Kynes said:

when austerity is done with an eye towards actually achieving the goal of actually reducing debt it works, not every time, cuz sometimes you fall off a ladder and break your leg, sometimes theres a hurricane that busts up millions of bucks worth of shit and sometimes theres a war.

if in-comings stay steady, and you reduce out-goings, deficits reduce.

if you start breaking even you can eventually start paying off debt untill you are solvent again.

THAT works every time, as long as nothing else fucks up the program.

FAKE austerity, like the current Greece program (cuts to social programs and breaking pension deals, while continuing mad spending on bullshit) or the current California program (Ditto) are designed to do one thing:

pinch the poor and the struggling, until they will vote for anything and anyone to stop the hemorrhaging.

it's politics as usual if you dont cut the pork before you start grinding down the social programs which cost far less, and actually do something for people.

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LOL.

yeah, austerity isn't working because we're not doing pure austerity.

just the same way as socialism never worked because we never did the pure socialism.

you sound like an angst-ridden teen.

Carthoris said:

The Great Depression was caused by the creation of the Federal Reserve by democrats/progressives. They destroyed the then current system of checks and balances and replaced them with inadequate government control which destroyed our economy. You can't destroy the future economy, congratulate yourselves, and then 10 or 20 years later do something else that destroys the future economy, congratulate yourselves, and then 10 or 20 years later... oh wait... maybe that is working out alright for them.

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i bet there were never recessions or depressions (see: "panics") before the federal reserve

it was the policies of the 20's, eerily similar to what the republicans are rooting for currently, which caused the great depression.

edit: there were other factors as well, but to blame it all on the fed reeks of "just-read-ayn-rand-again", as does the incessant and prepubescent scorning of "statists".

oh my, statists! the horror!

abandonconflict said:

No. We're in debt because of war. ireland is just poor because, well, Ireland doesn't produce much. The austerity measures would first apply to the military and federal police agencies in libertarian socialism, then to corporate welfare.

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Yeah, cos we havnt a HUGE trade surplus or anything.

Youre dumb. We crashed cos Europe told us to bail out our banks directly to the tune of 125% of GDP.

America is broke cos they won't reduce their deficit, regardless of the cause of that deficit, there is a solution... "trim away the fat".

Harrekin said:

Yeah, cos we havnt a HUGE trade surplus or anything.

Youre dumb. We crashed cos Europe told us to bail out our banks directly to the tune of 125% of GDP.

America is broke cos they won't reduce their deficit, regardless of the cause of that deficit, there is a solution... "trim away the fat".

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Or raise revenue by taxing the rich.

abandonconflict said:

Or raise revenue by taxing the rich.

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And yet you claim to be a libertarian and want justice for all people...lol!!

I can see your red star miles away, stop pretending comrade.

Harrekin said:

And yet you claim to be a libertarian and want justice for all people...lol!!

I can see your red star miles away, stop pretending comrade.

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*tries not to laugh at silly leprechaun*

I'm a libertarian socialist.

If you really think the "free-market" will magically create "justice for all people" please, by all means, explain how.

abandonconflict said:

*tries not to laugh at silly leprechaun*

I'm a libertarian socialist.

If you really think the "free-market" will magically create "justice for all people" please, by all means, explain how.

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If you think libertarian socialism isn't socialism, then you're fucking retarded.

Prove you're not, Obamas little bitch boy.

Harrekin said:

If you think libertarian socialism isn't socialism, then you're fucking retarded.

Prove you're not, Obamas little bitch boy.

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It is socialism. That's why it is called Libertarian Socialism.

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to how the "free market" will fix everything.

abandonconflict said:

The New Deal ended the Great Depression. The 80's and 90's saw the availability of capital for the masses through credit which created an artificial boom and wasteful demand.

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The new deal was enacted from 33 to 35? something like that. The unemployment rates and stock market didn't return to pre-crash levels until the 50's. Glass-Steagall reigned in our reckless banking practices that brought about the depression. This was a good move to ensure it didn't happen again but he thought Keynes was right and kept us in a depression his entire 3 terms. Ending WWII and our military complex brought the economy back. The country as a whole was more geared toward production and exports instead of service and consumption as we are now.

FDR is the favorite of the leftist revisionists. He expanded executive powers like no one before or after until Bush/Obama. It was so bad congress had to enact a "we can't have another FDR" amendment.

If we didn't ignore history we would point to the leverage trading causing the 1907 panic (50% of dow, now that's a crash). Bucket shop laws were enacted to stop this practice. The depression of 20' was handled by cutting taxes and spending and was over in a year. The crash of 29' was caused by savings and loans conspiring with investment banks and manipulating an artificial bubble. Glass-Steagal was enacted to stop this sort of gambling and manipulation.

Fast forward to Clinton's term and the prevalent greed of the times. GS was repealed and credit default swaps (read about bucket shops from the 1900's) became all the rage. People got rich as our banks once again manipulated the market and here we are today.

Only Clintons and Newts think allowing S and Ls who are backed by FDIC to leverage our savings 40 to 1 could be a good thing. FDR would have fixed this (albeit with huge government expansion), Obama comes out with Dodd-Frank that does nothing to stop this. So you can praise FDR for at least recognizing a problem.

You've accused me of having an irrational hate for the left because I think 20 years of depression is not a good track record. You say it was the best time in our country for upward mobility, you say FDR ended the depression. I'm the irrational one....

FDR resided over the slowest recovery period in our history, Obama has resided over the second slowest. You would have to be irrational to not admit this. Ever, all time in the history of the US economy. Nobody's track record on the economy is worse than these two. Both were Keynesians. Both are regarded by the left as two of the all time greats.

Go ahead and ignore and skew history, it's all you got.

Edit: and what Dr. Kynes said

I should have read the last few pages before making that post. Dr. Kynes and others already handled this.

Uncle Buck, we are treading water and the ACA hasn't even started good. We will continue to tread water. If you look at historical economies and what helped/hurt during these times you would see we are doing the opposite of helping right now. I would hope 4 from years from now for you to be able to see this but I imagine the republicans and Bush will still be blamed.

ginwilly said:

FDR resided over the slowest recovery period in our history, Obama has resided over the second slowest.

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I'll write a more fitting reply to the rest of this content and devote some time and thought but for now, I'm going to point out how loaded these statements are. Indeed, irrational hatred of the left is flowing forth. Let's just say they are the worst recessions in US history not caused by the policies of either man involved in the recoveries and that the recoveries did work.

However, McKinley, another progressive, deserves to be along side these two, as his political opponents were right wing gerymanderers who left him with fiscal problems to fix, which he did and went down in history controversially.

Fair enough. I'm genuinely interested. I noticed you didn't deny these truths, thanks for that. I suspect you are going to blame republicans, I'll keep an open mind as long as you bring facts, not just some Keynesians opinion.

ginwilly said:

Fair enough. I'm genuinely interested. I noticed you didn't deny these truths, thanks for that. I suspect you are going to blame republicans, I'll keep an open mind as long as you bring facts, not just some Keynesians opinion.

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He lives in a fantasy land where libertarianism and socialism are somehow comparable.

Dont heed his opinion with anymore than humour and disdain.

He doesn't seem to realise what he calls "Libertarian Socialism" actually exists in capitalism and it's called a Co-Operative.