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Kosher Tangie & Strawberry Cookies, new to organics journal

Discussion in 'Organics' started by Bubba's girl, Oct 1, 2017.

  1.  
    Bubba's girl

    Bubba's girl Well-Known Member

    Day 54.

    Starting to run into some issues. Especially with the Kosher Tangies. Couldn't get any decent close ups but they are far from done at day 54. The purped out pheno of Strawberry Cookies I'll be taking down this weekend. The other one looks a good week behind. Faint strawberry aroma on that one, strong on the purped.

    IMG_4596.JPG
     
  2.  
    Bubba's girl

    Bubba's girl Well-Known Member

    Strawberry Cookies

    1st pic other pheno IMG_4619.JPG IMG_4614.JPG IMG_4600.JPG
     
  3.  
    Bubba's girl

    Bubba's girl Well-Known Member

    Kosher Tangie, not too thrilled with these right now, expecting a little more bud development by now...and a little more smell and swell would be nice. Maybe it's the fungas gnats holding back. Been fighting em since these were in solo cups, that batch of Promix Organic Seed starter was where the gnats came from I think. IMG_4613.JPG IMG_4612.JPG IMG_4604.JPG
     
  4.  
    ShLUbY

    ShLUbY Well-Known Member

    Man that strawberry just purped right out! Looks lovely! :weed:

    What issues are you running into? It looks like maybe a little calcium or potassium deficiency on the Tangies? Just observing those brown/rusty patterns on the leaves... maybe its just the way it looks in the photo and it's just pigmentation. Other than that, i think they look great!
     
  5.  
    Bubba's girl

    Bubba's girl Well-Known Member

    Yes the one on the bottom left (group shot) does have some rusty patterns on the leaves, and premature yellowing, I suppose a calmag issue? A bit of premature fade on all 3 KT but mainly the bottom left pheno.
     
  6.  
    ShLUbY

    ShLUbY Well-Known Member

    just calcium for the rust spots. magnesium is inter veinal chlorosis... typically doesn't yellow the entire leaf. The premature fading is probably due to a slightly weak amount of nutrients.

    IMO, i've found a lot of the soil recipes circulating around on here are a little weak with the nutrients needed for flowering (potassium in particular, i always seemed to be having deficiencies, especially with 10wk strains), and i have combatted that by adding a top dressing to the pot around week 3 of flower. I picked up a bloom mix (3-7-4) and have been applying 1/4-1/3 of a cup of that, mixed with a 1" layer of EWC/compost and about 25% volume pumice. I find this carries them unhindered all the way to the end, and with my gorilla glue i added 25% yield to the run. all strains showed at least 10% yield increases. premature fading stopped, and plants just pushed out bud growth until they were fully mature.

    i'm now experimenting with topdressing at the end of week one, and the end of week three. first topdress on my current run of con cheese was bloom mix + insect frass with compost. 2nd addition was a couple TBSP of insect frass, and 1 TBSP of some dried banana peels i ground up in the mortar and pestle to a dust, and i just mixed it up in some water and watered that in to carry it into the soil. I'm curious to see how they will look when i get back at the end of the week!

    I've just been trying to push the plants with a little more nutrient to see the threshold. so far... i have not seen any ill effects from the amounts i've been applying. I'm not trying to say that any of these recipes are bad in any way... just that they are slightly lacking in nutrition for medium to large sized plants. but maybe that's just been my experience!
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
    DonTesla likes this.
  7.  
    Bubba's girl

    Bubba's girl Well-Known Member


    First off, thank you for taking an interest in my thread. I can really use the help, it's true what The Rev said (I think it was him) that when switching to organics you are taking one step back to take two forward.

    I did do some top dressing on mine. At day 19 I top dressed the Kosher Tangies with a high phos bat guano, and at day 25, I top dressed all the plants with about a gallon of the same soil mix their in, but this time it was 'cooked'. Since that didn't appear to be doing much, day 30 something I started adding CalMag by General Organics and Molasses to the water, and for the Kosher Tangies I have added some 5-1-1 fish emulsion. I think those things have all helped prevent the leaves from fully yellowing, but once it starts, seems so hard to reverse...at least organically. I may try your top dress recipe in the future, I'm sure those EWC would have helped...but next round I was planning on using teas in flower stage, so maybe I'll be good. Maybe I'm running into deficiency because the soil was not 'cooked'??
     
    DonTesla likes this.
  8.  
    Bubba's girl

    Bubba's girl Well-Known Member

    Oh btw, I think my Kosher Tangies look better in the pics than in person. The colas seem a lot skinnier in real life imho. Perhaps I should do something about my low RH. It's around 33, I've never bothered trying to get it up, for fear of mold issues (and laziness too). Need to read up on VPD. Would proper humidity levels have an impact on the plants ability to uptake the nutrients in the soil?

    Also, I have not checked the PH once during this grow. Somebody suggested checking the ph of the water runoff, compare to the PH of the water going in, and the soil's PH should be right about in the middle? Does this sound right? Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  9.  
    ShLUbY

    ShLUbY Well-Known Member

    Just a few things to chew on...
    - the high phos guano is good for root growth, but doesn't offer you much in terms of flower development nutrition, as it's low in potassium.
    - in in living soils, I have never had a calcium deficiency... so i'm curious what your input amounts were for calcium materials. maybe you can boost them up for the next round.
    - a top dressing of soil is a fairly weak addition of nutrition if its 2" or less (especially if it's weak in the potassium you needed for continued flower development). whereas by adding that 1/4-1/3 cup of bloom amendment with the compost will be adding a more concentrated dose of food, and also organisms right along with them from the compost! Roots colonize my top dressings so quickly, it amazes me!
    - and the fish emulsion, same thing, low in flowering nutrients when comparing it to the amount of nitrogen it has. yellowing leaves in the most recent growth will be a factor other than nitrogen, and since N is mobile in the plant it will pull from the lower leaves (i figure you already know this, but just stating in case :) )

    I too have been contemplating how to deal with the RH... and my line of thinking is right with yours... maybe they aren't running most efficiently right now. They are definitely working hard this time of year when its cold and dry out. But it doesn't seem to be affecting me all that much. I guess I will compare my winter harvests to my summer harvests and see if there is a correlation/causation between the different environmental conditions. even that's tough because of variance of plant sizes.

    Seems to me the only effective way is to switch to a sealed room, because when you have a passive air grow, its hard to change environmental conditions when the air is recirculating so quickly out of the room, and environmental air is constantly coming in. So IMO, this would call for a sealed room, so everything can be controlled. expensive venture... but maybe it will pay itself off in the first run! lol

    Well there are people with different schools of thought on this subject. While i agree with the average of the pH between in and out is somewhat accurate for soil pH... I just don't see it being as accurate as a good soil pH meter right in the soil (not the cheapy ones). I bought one from bluelabs that was around 175$ i think. I was still using organic bottles at the time, but found that the sunshine mix did not contain enough liming agent so my pH was always dropping at the end of flower and i knew something was going on. once i figured that out, and limed the mix properly, my pH stayed perfect the whole grow, and the plants were going nuts with bud development.

    every now and again i check the pH of my no-tills to make sure nothing funny is happening. I noticed the other week my dairy queens new growth was looking yellow and i assumed Fe deficiency. checked the pH, and it was over 7; Fe was insoluble. I had a PM freakout when i saw a spot on a leaf, and drenched the plants with K-Bicarb solution... i forgot to cover my soil with a drip guard. K-bicarb is very alkaline... so hence the alkaline spike! threw in some gypsum with a topdress of compost and some other nutrients and one week later they looked perfect. checked pH after 2 weeks, came out 6.4! :hump:

    second... you can't afford to be having runoff when your nutrients are of a finite amount in your soil. runoff carries away valuable nutrition! so i'm of the school of never have runoff! also, i'm curious of what your watering habits were? I never let pots go "dry", as dryness decreases microbial activity and possible slow growth. i'm more of a keep it "uniformly moist" all the time kind of guy :bigjoint:

    Sorry for the novel lol. But I definitely enjoy trying to help out the organic community... there aren't many of us around!
     
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  10.  
    Bubba's girl

    Bubba's girl Well-Known Member

    @ShLUbY,

    Here is the water only uncooked recipe I'm using, from here I'd say gypsum, oyster shell and langbeinite are the main calcium sources. I use RO water only. I have a batch of Clackamas Coots recipe cooking for the next round. It seems to have a lot more rock mineral stuff in it so perhaps I'll be covered there?

    I will look into grabbing a soil ph pen, however, the problem right now I wanna spend my money on seeds.

    For watering, I water every 3 days, with 2.3 litres of water. I realize the need to keep them well hydrated.

    I have some awesome seeds ready for the next round. But I'm gonna hold off germinating them til this round is over, and get rid of that fungas gnat infested soil that I've fought (and lost) since early seedling stage.


    Base:

    15% Coco
    35% Perlite
    12.5% Worm Castings
    18.75% Leaf Compost
    18.75% Cow Manure Compost

    Amendments:

    Neem Cake1/2 cup per cubic foot
    Shrimp Meal 1/4 cup per cf
    Crab Meal 1/4 cup per cf
    Fishbone meal 1/2 cup per cf
    Gypsum 1/2 cup per cf
    Kelp meal 1/2 cup per cf
    Alfalfa meal 1/4 cup per cf
    Langbeinite 1/4 cup per cf
    Oyster Shell 1/4 cup per cf
     
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  11.  
    Bubba's girl

    Bubba's girl Well-Known Member

    @ShLUbY,

    This is the Clackamas Coots recipe I have cooking. Gonna do 4 plants in 15gals this time.

    Base:

    1/3 Peat Moss
    1/3 Rice Hulls
    1/3 Compost (ewc, leaf, cow manure)

    Amendments:

    Kelp 1/2 cup per cubic foot
    Neem Cake 1/2 cup per cf
    Crab Meal 1/2 cup per cf
    Malted Barley 1/2 cup per cf

    Mineral Mx:

    Basalt 1 cup per cubic foot
    Oyster Shell flower 1 cup per cf
    Gypsum 1 cup per cf
    Glaciel Rock Dust 1 cup per cf
     
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  12.  
    ShLUbY

    ShLUbY Well-Known Member

    I have modified the CC recipe slightly with adding greensand (long term K) and fishbone meal (good source of P), and not using the malted barley. the barley is extremely soluble (and basically sugar), so i didn't see the long term nutrient release from that ingredient (probably better as a tea ingredient?). I also use alfalfa when I have it on hand, but it's not a staple in the recipe. The rock dusts are great and create a much larger diversity of minerals in the soil. I honestly think its the rock dusts that make my plants have different terps/smells than other people who grow some of the same strains as I do but with bottles... just a hypothesis. FWIW, i run the OSF and gypsum at 1/2c each and have no issues with pH being low. As stated before, I have never seen a Ca def. with this recipe. And i'm topdressing in flower as well. Dr. Earth makes a sweet looking bloom boost product with bene's in it as well. i think its called like flower girl or something? pink package.

    my initial runs with CC recipe were fire results but yields were not as great as i was expecting, hence the modifications and definitely saw increased yields. i would also advocate for Kelp topdressings as well. has a minute amount of K and lots of other great minerals, and it breaks down fast! I just did my first powdered banana peel addition @ week 3, wondering how that's gonna go! 0-0-42 or something... it was only a TBSP haha.

    I'm wondering now if you were experiencing some pH factors with the current grow, since you only had coco in the mix, and not really anything that acidifies the soil (besides the protons that the plant pumps into the soil and the gypsum). maybe your mix pH was on the borderline of being alkaline and the plants just didn't achieve their full potential. @DonTesla knows more about growing with coco than I do, maybe he can share some knowledge when he gets back from his journey. Or, maybe everything was totally fine and all the food got consumed quickly and they were wanting more!

    overall, i'd be damn proud with that as a second crack at organics! They look very well cared for, and the fun part is... there will always be something to improve upon, something to learn, and something that will surprise you :) . So to that, i say Cheers and wish you continued success!
     
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  13.  
    ShLUbY

    ShLUbY Well-Known Member

    correction... i was thinking of malted barely extract! i got the two products confused. i can see why the malted barely is in there now lol

    edit: looking at one of the pod casts... it seems like he is using the powder (extract)... but apparently the stuff is bomb. claims he was getting flowers to finish 15% earlier? interesting.... but yeah i woudn't even bother putting that stuff in the soil mix. i would use it as a soluble product or just topdress and water it in planning on it being spent within a couple days
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
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  14.  
    DonTesla

    DonTesla Well-Known Member

    Yes, watering becomes quite artful when running lower numbers on the nutrient side.. also in smaller pots.. that can be really tricky unless reinoculating often or continually watering little bits!

    .. that said, have always loved the potency of my 2% kelp stuff (more than my CC recipe or others) that I gave a drench to weekly.. its true if you give more you can take a little more and that can be advantageous. coming from a minimalist that should say something!

    that said, almost everything could use a little challenging.. even the 1/3 1/3 1/3 ratio is un ideal for me.. coco or peat .. I still like to have at least 40% aeration.

    and I second the moist thing btw. oxygen is crucial in organics, as is sustaining life, so floods and droughts are enemies, technically.. jogging along that range still has some benefits, but its a smaller continuum to cross, more like a little rope bridge vs sanfran bridge, if I may

    As for 15% earlier, I've heard and seen a bit that LED's can shave flower time, stress can shave time, and frass has its claims as well.. plus vegging in beds can shave serious veg time. So some more attention here would be great~
     
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  15.  
    Bubba's girl

    Bubba's girl Well-Known Member


    Tons of great info I will be applying to my future grows. Thank you so much.

    Quick question about the green sand, I've heard that it takes a looooong time to break down, does this mean it only becomes effective once the soil has been recycled a couple times?
     
  16.  
    Bubba's girl

    Bubba's girl Well-Known Member

    I believe the stuff I'm using is "malted barely flour". I will have to read up some more on it.
     
  17.  
    Bubba's girl

    Bubba's girl Well-Known Member

    Hi DonTesla, sorry I'm not sure what your "2% kelp stuff" is? Is that a top dress or tea?

    For watering I will probably be getting bluemats in the future...and yeah I think more than a third aeration would be a good idea.
     
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  18.  
    ShLUbY

    ShLUbY Well-Known Member

    it may take a long time to become completely broken down. and the nice thing about that is that it will become available in incremental amounts as needed in flower, rather than a big blast at once. I saw improvements in my yield in the first run when i started adding it to the mix. may have been a coincidence... may have not! either way, its a good mineral to add to the mix, and it adds small amounts of K over time. I think its totally worth it
     
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  19.  
    DonTesla

    DonTesla Well-Known Member

    Yeah for sure..blending particle size, porosities and textures, not to mention functionalities and mineral profiles, just leads to another series of cohesive benefits.

    By my 2% stuff I just meant my recipe where 2% of soils total volume was dedicated to dry kelp as per the manufacturer's suggestions to run it at 2-3%.. which equates to 2.4 cups per cf on the recommended 'low end' vs just .5 or 1 which is 'the norm'.

    Its not what I recommend per se, as there are prerequisites or a couple things that I would ensure if trying the potent way, it
    just allowed me to water a bit more aggressively without fear of leaching per se.. to the point of 5-10% runoff once a week all through late veg and flower.. It also allowed me to topdress less and tea less, just once with soil to be exact, and with that water only approach, it not only sped my cure up and improved my products smoke and overall taste and experience, it also aided potency and ease of burn.

    Things to note: I don't recommend using small pots, using store bought castings, nor skipping a 'growing fungus' stage before using any living soil.


    I am biased I love my sands and dusts now, but I also like greensand and agree that its benefits are worth it.. and perhaps even more immediate than some of my respected colleagues may suspect.
    Technically speaking, if using it in conjunction with live worms its immediately used to aid digestion and overall soil texture, and outdoor it can help with things in a single season too, like wind protection.. Plus if used with a range of fungals including myco, I think it ups a no tills potency and expression fairly quick .. its minerals that really affects potency and its loaded with 60 plus of them, on top of its K.
     
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  20.  
    Bubba's girl

    Bubba's girl Well-Known Member

    Thank you for dropping your wisdom bombs on my thread @DonTesla, you can be sure much of this will influence my future grows.

    From your "Things to note" comments, I have to admit I'm batting 0 for 3, but I am striving for 3/3...what do you consider a "small" pot? I guess you're telling me 10's are too small. I'm planning to upsize to 15's next round, still too small?

    Thanks again for your contributions, both to my thread and this forum/site.
     
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