Jumping on board the LED train...looking for the proper light

Olive Drab Green

Well-Known Member
These are for the 260w V2 kit arranged by HLG and assembled by GrowersLights. I got 2x 135s instead of 1x 260, so it’s more like 270w, but this is the efficiency from both HLG and GrowersLights for the 260w model:

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Olive Drab Green

Well-Known Member
Now, as you can see there, I wasn’t lying. If I called anyone a liar that wasn’t a liar on this forum, I’d expect people would treat me even more disproportionately than I just treated him. I thought, given the disrespect, I was being pretty fair. I did get a little pissed off, but only because I wasn’t sure why he was acting like he was, and I tried to brush it off at first, until I realized he was becoming aggressive and disrespectful.
 
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Olive Drab Green

Well-Known Member
@Frank Nitty

Did I maybe misinterpret something you guys see that I might have misunderstood? If I misunderstood what he was trying to say and went overboard, then I am legitimately sorry and accept the blame for it in full. I just legitimately felt like he might have been acting passive aggressive with me, and I couldn’t even begin to think of why. I’m not trying to needlessly act like a douchebag to someone who isn’t instigating or being provocational, I’m just trying to reinforce a line of respect I think everyone should have for each other.

I follow an escalation of force, doing my best at sensing and confirming whether someone is attempting to escalate a situation, or respond properly to my attempts at deescalation. I haven’t always been right, but sometimes it’s better safe than sorry. I’m sure I have hell to pay for it yet, but if I’m trying to deescalate and be cool, anyone involved should be doing that as well, not cranking shit up to the max. I don’t want to have to go to that extreme over petty bullshit either.
 
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Frank Nitty

Well-Known Member
@Frank Nitty

Did I maybe misinterpret something you guys see that I might have misunderstood? If I misunderstood what he was trying to say and went overboard, then I am legitimately sorry and accept the blame for it in full. I just legitimately felt like he might have been acting passive aggressive with me, and I couldn’t even begin to think of why. I’m not trying to needlessly act like a douchebag to someone who isn’t instigating or being provocational, I’m just trying to reinforce a line of respect I think everyone should have for each other.

I follow an escalation of force, doing my best at sensing and confirming whether someone is attempting to escalate a situation, or respond properly to my attempts at deescalation. I haven’t always been right, but sometimes it’s better safe than sorry. I’m sure I have hell to pay for it yet, but if I’m trying to deescalate and be cool, anyone involved should be doing that as well, not cranking shit up to the max. I don’t want to have to go to that extreme over petty bullshit either.
Dude, I didn't see you say anything that would have been seen as an insult... Maybe this goes beyond you and this was the match that lit the fire... Im sure you guys will work it out,you took steps to fix it, now its in his court...
 

Olive Drab Green

Well-Known Member
Dude, I didn't see you say anything that would have been seen as an insult... Maybe this goes beyond you and this was the match that lit the fire... Im sure you guys will work it out,you took steps to fix it, now its in his court...
Just making sure, because I’m probably just as confused. I hope he figures it out, in any case. Maybe he’s got a vendetta against GrowersLights or something. Hell if I know.
 
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BAMS

Well-Known Member
A watt is a watt 600w will produce the same amount of heat no matter what the source is. If you get a genuine quantum board hlg will replace anything that's breaks saving you that $15-$30.
First lets start with this...."Physics 101 for dumbasses"

A Watt is a unit of power, defined as the rate of energy transferred [per second]. The energy is usually defined as Joules; therefore, one Joule per second is one Watt.

When measuring heating effects, a unit of thermal energy known as a calorie is used. One calorie is 4.184 Joules.

Materials have a property called thermal capacity or specific heat. This is a measure of how many calories are needed to raise 1.0 gram of the material one degree Centigrade. The thermal capacity of water at 15 deg. C is 1.0 calorie. That is 4.184 Joules or 4.184 Watt-seconds. The entire energy could be transferred to the water in one millisecond at a rate of 4184 watts to produce the same temperature rise of one deg. C.

The thermal capacity of materials changes slightly with temperature primarily due to changes in density, and very dramatically at phase transitions, such as ice melting and water boiling.


So this means that an HID with an aluminium reflector will generate different heat than the same watt light with a steel reflector.

Now to the lighting power factor (and yes this is cut and paste from skoomd1 on Reddit.

600w 6x Vero 29 cob array

Here is the spectrum, which is extremely close to the sun which plants grow their best under PERIOD. No stretchy, leggy plants like with HPS, increased potency and smell in buds, and pheno colors will just pop out every time.

-Color temperature of 3500k

-80 CRI (closeness to sun with 100 being identical, over 50 CRI is high for growing and means your plants will express their phenotype fully and be more potent)

-937 PPFD covering a 4x4 space (600-1000 is optimal, ppfd is PAR averaged over a given space))

-1396 PPF

-49% efficiency

-2.33μmol/J efficiency/par output (Quantum boards are 2.8 at same power and go as high as 3, CXB3590s at 50w is around 2.6-2.7μmol/J)

-Outputs 294 PAR Watts, and 306 Watts of heat (wasted energy)

-No hotspots, every point over a 4x4 space would be

600w HPS Eye Hortilux bulb (the best on the market) in any decent reflector/ballast combo

Here's the spectrum which is nearly all green and yellow light, which is still in the PAR range so 1 par W of hps = 1 par w of COB, but the plants can hardly make good use of those wavelengths versus the Chloraphyll A/B spikes in the blue/red wavelengths, like you see on the COB's spectrum.

-Color temperature of 2100k

-25 CRI (hence the disgusting inefficient yellow/orange light and the TERRIBLe stretching hps causes)

-671 PPFD over a 4x4 space (600-1000 is optimal)

-999 PPF (how much PAR it outputs per second)

-22% Efficiency (some lamps can go up to 30%on paper but its rare to actually see due to differences in ballasts and wattages between individual setups)

-1.65μmol/J raw par output

-Outputs 150 PAR Watts and outputs 450 Watts as wasted heat

-Very uneven light coverage, you have a large hotspot in and around the middle of the canopy, and will VERY rapidly drop off around the edges to very low levels.


So if you want to mimic the same PPF of a 600w HPS, then you could reduce your wattage on the LED to both energy cost and extra heat produced, and still yet get better performance.

Oh and if one lived in the US and could take advantage of HLG free replacement program, then one should take advantage of that. But for those that live outside the US, unfortunately the postage for the return would be the same cost as me jumping out and buying a Cree, Citizen, or Vero COB. If you read my post thoroughly and not just read what you wanted to create an arguement over, you will see that I do like QB as they produce nearly on the same product as a COB (obviously dependant on Kelvin, watt for watt, etc etc) but have the added bonus of a more evenly spread light distribution. I have both, and as I said only prefer the COB for accessability to replacement for the cost
 

gwheels

Well-Known Member
I have a 315 CMH and a QB135 and a vero 2VL. All of them are fantastic. That QB is shockingly good and is perfect for my little tent (5 square feet). The 315 and 200 vero will run together in my 4 x 4 next round (2 sour diesel and 2 critical mass). I might put the QB in there too if i can manage the temp right. All 3 are good choices for lighting but get some good uv shades to protect your eyes.
 

Frank Nitty

Well-Known Member
I have a 315 CMH and a QB135 and a vero 2VL. All of them are fantastic. That QB is shockingly good and is perfect for my little tent (5 square feet). The 315 and 200 vero will run together in my 4 x 4 next round (2 sour diesel and 2 critical mass). I might put the QB in there too if i can manage the temp right. All 3 are good choices for lighting but get some good uv shades to protect your eyes.
Good advice...
 

Michael Huntherz

Well-Known Member
I try to explain how efficiency is a real thing that can be measured, when talking to some grow bros, and they don’t have the surrounding framework of knowledge to comprehend it...most folks seem to fall into two groups, the sort who does their own research with specific intent to gain understanding, and the sort who relies on hearsay, in my experience. You can’t fix someone else’s lack of curiosity, but you can laugh at them. Cheers.
 

Frank Nitty

Well-Known Member
I try to explain how efficiency is a real thing that can be measured, when talking to some grow bros, and they don’t have the surrounding framework of knowledge to comprehend it...most folks seem to fall into two groups, the sort who does their own research with specific intent to gain understanding, and the sort who relies on hearsay, in my experience. You can’t fix someone else’s lack of curiosity, but you can laugh at them. Cheers.
I try to get it, but for some reason I don't... If you show it to me and how to do it, I can do that, but explaining it to me and I can't see it ,im lost... Does that make sense to you???
 

SisGenderShrimp

Active Member
What would be a ideal led setup for a 2x4x7ft on a 350 dollar budget?, I would be using the same lights for veg and flower, I just don't know what color temp I should run for a full cycle . And how much can I roughly expect to get out of two or three plants in this little space?
 

BAMS

Well-Known Member
What would be a ideal led setup for a 2x4x7ft on a 350 dollar budget?, I would be using the same lights for veg and flower, I just don't know what color temp I should run for a full cycle . And how much can I roughly expect to get out of two or three plants in this little space?
This one if you live in the US
https://horticulturelightinggroup.com/collections/kits/products/260w-qb-v2-led-kit

best all rounder is 3500K

how much you get from 2 to 3 plants is entirely in the hands of you, with factors such as lighting (Which you are inquiring about), environment, strain, & nutrients....and probably in that order of importance
 

Michael Huntherz

Well-Known Member
I try to get it, but for some reason I don't... If you show it to me and how to do it, I can do that, but explaining it to me and I can't see it ,im lost... Does that make sense to you???
Wasn’t targeting you, Frank, but let’s see if I can help using sort of simple language. Not to be condescending, but for clarity of ideas, because this is how it clicked for me. Ultimately you don’t need to understand how it is calculated, just accept that the numbers are based on real physical measurements of actual stuff that exists. It isn’t some LED marketing scam, it’s seems like you are on board with that much, since you run Quantum Boards. I love growing wih HPS, for the record, but modern LED fixtures are inarguably more efficient, and they grow plenty of dank, I am really anxious to upgrade soon, but I have digressed...

Joules (the physical, as in physics, unit of measure for energy) of energy, in the form of AC electricity are delivered from the wall socket to the driver, where some energy is lost in the inversion process to DC, this is how we get the driver’s efficiency rating, and the lost energy is released as heat, always. Forget about that for now, the good drivers are really efficient these days. The critical first thing to understand is lamp efficiency. This is what the big deal about LEDs is, they convert more electricity into light, rather than heat.

Energy delivered to a lamp (the actual bulb or LED) is always released as one of two things:
  1. Photons
  2. Heat
The atomic weight of the photons is measured in micromoles (umol) over a time period, and then divided by the number of joules not lost as heat (more on that later) to find how many micromoles of photons are generated per 1 joule of energy delivered to the lamp. The efficiency rating is the percentage of energy that is converted into photons, calculated by subtracting the energy value, in joules, of the photons released by the lamp from the total joules delivered from the driver to the lamp. If we say a lamp is 60% efficient that means 40% of the energy consumed by the lamp is essentially wasted, as heat (often measured in British Thermal Units (BTUs) and converted to Joules. 1 BTU = about 1055 joules), and the rest is made of delicious photons.

To calculate the efficiency rating we only need to measure the heat emitted by the lamp, but to know how much light we are actually generating at that efficiency rating we use micromoles per Joule or “umol/J” And anything over 2.3 umol/J = fucking rad, dude.

The layperson’s measurement of lumens is actually useful, in this regard, for understanding the relative efficiency of the lamps. Lumens-per-watt is a pretty useful thing for rule-of-thumb, and people in the commercial lighting business use it to communicate efficiency ratings to their customers. Anything over 150 lumens per watt is pretty sick, and a lot of lamps nowadays can run right near 200 lumens per watt, which is mind blowing, to me. Hooray for science and technology!
 
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Frank Nitty

Well-Known Member
Wasn’t targeting you, Frank, but let’s see if I can help using sort of simple language. Not to be condescending, but for clarity of ideas, because this is how it clicked for me. Ultimately you don’t need to understand how it is calculated, just accept that the numbers are based on real physical measurements of actual stuff that exists. It isn’t some LED marketing scam, it’s seems like you are on board with that much, at least. I love growing wih HPS, for the record, but modern LED fixtures are inarguably more efficient, and they grow plenty of dank, I am really anxious to upgrade soon, but I have digressed...

Joules (the physical, as in physics, unit of measure for energy) of energy, in the form of AC electricity are delivered from the wall socket to the driver, where some energy is lost in the inversion process to DC, this is how we get the driver’s efficiency rating, and the lost energy is released as heat, always. Forget about that for now, the good drivers are really efficient these days. The critical first thing to understand is lamp efficiency. This is what the big deal about LEDs is, converting more electricity into light, rather than heat.

Energy delivered to a lamp (the actual bulb or LED) is always released as one of two things:
  1. Photons
  2. Heat
The atomic weight of the photons is measured in micromoles (umol) over a time period, and then divided by the number of joules not lost as heat (more on that later) to find how many micromoles of photons are generated per 1 joule of energy delivered to the lamp. More umol of photons means greater efficiency, and therefore less wasted energy released as heat. The efficiency rating is the percentage of that energy that is converted into photons, calculated by subtracting the energy value, in joules, of the photons released by the lamp from the total joules delivered from the driver to the lamp. If we say a lamp is 60% efficient that means 40% of the energy consumed by the lamp is essentially wasted, as heat (often measured in British Thermal Units (BTUs) and converted to Joules. 1 BTU = about 1055 joules), and the rest is made of delicious photons.

The layperson’s measurement of lumens is actually useful, in this regard, for understanding the relative efficiency of the lamps. Lumens per watt is a pretty useful thing for rule-of-thumb, and people in the commercial lighting business use it to communicate efficiency ratings to their customers. Anything over 150 lumens per watt is pretty sick, and a lot of lamps nowadays can run right near 200 lumens per watt, which is pretty mind blowing, to me. Hooray for science and technology!
That was beautiful... And so easy to understand... Thank you for the educational seminar and taking the time to explain this to me... Seriously... Knowing all of that is good to know if I was really worried about it (not being funny), but I just want the best product for the job, correct? Thanks again for educating a dummy!!!
 

Michael Huntherz

Well-Known Member
That was beautiful... And so easy to understand... Thank you for the educational seminar and taking the time to explain this to me... Seriously... Knowing all of that is good to know if I was really worried about it (not being funny), but I just want the best product for the job, correct? Thanks again for educating a dummy!!!
I like how you think! I wish I could keep it simple, but my brain must dance. I am a little insane in that things like math and statistics help me relax.

You are right, chase the best product for the money or the absolute best, depending on your goals and means, the rest is very much academic and not of any practical use for hobbyists like you and I.

And thanks for the kind words, I was surprised I could write that without looking anything up, honestly.
 

Frank Nitty

Well-Known Member
I like how you think! I wish I could keep it simple, but my brain must dance. I am a little insane in that things like math and statistics help me relax.

You are right, chase the best product for the money or the absolute best, depending on your goals and means, the rest is very much academic and not of any practical use for hobbyists like you and I.

And thanks for the kind words, I was surprised I could write that without looking anything up, honestly.
When you know what you're talking about the words are easy... I know how to make all of this work,but I can't explain in an educated way WHY it works like you just did for me... That's why when someone asks me a question, I send them to someone more knowledgeable than me...
 

gwheels

Well-Known Member
I would like to add that if you select a good light just run with it. You can go crazy chasing the next great light. I was tempted to get a bc blondes 630 watt samsung fixture for my tent for 1100 canadian but for 135 i got a 4k bulb for my 315 and now i can veg better and switch over to 3k and 3500 (vero) for flower. I already have more lights than tents. No more shopping for me until i move some old gear.

:)

And all 3 of my lights are great. I cant pick one i like them all differently. Like kids
 
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