Jesus Myth & Why It Endures

greasemonkeymann

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
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schnooby said:
no, i do believe in dinosaurs i just dont believe in general they were gods creations. There is anecdotal evidence which crosses many ancient mythos that bizarre creatures have existed which were hybrids or genetically manipulated and i believe the reason why dinosaurs were not saved through the flood is either due to their rogue genetics or that they would have no place in the post flood world.


molten rock. You do know that estimates of the earths crust thickness are anywhere between 20 and 30 miles which is more than enough room to store our current ocean many times over. The molten rock i think you must be referring to only occur where plates slip, or where volcanic activity happens and all of those represent very small footprints compared to the entire surface area and depth of the crust. As for gravity and the mechanisms which could cause water to move in and out of the crust we know there are forces which can easily overcome gravity under certain conditions, pressure differentials, voids or spaces created by cataclysmic crustal displacement or perhaps other methods. Ithink its naive to assume we understand something we werent even there to see and since flood mythos crosses numerous cultures it would be highly ignorant to categorically dismiss the entirety of those ancient tales as nothing more than the product of a cross cultural hoax or delusion.
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according to your link that "water" is held in the mantle though, NOT the crust.
 
Flowki

Flowki

Well-Known Member
You need to understand a thing people always over look. If it is true and when you die you die, that's it, then that means nothing you do in life matters. The world and our solar system will one day end and every generation after us will soon join us in the nothingness. So you can't even hold onto the notion that what you pass down to the next generation matters.. time is fickle, sooner than you think none of it will matter.

If everyone could comprehend and accept that, what would stop people walking into the street right now and blowing the head off of the first person they comes into contact with?. What stops people who understand this notion of nothing matters breaking every law in the book?. I can only put that down to the over riding attribute of survival instinct. Blow a mans head off, your life is over.. you can't reproduce as is written into your dna.

I have personally come to accept what feels like a real possibility nothing exists after death thus nothing matters. Still, I walk through life with a caring for others and a desire to do good even though I completely understand it likely means nothing at all. Doing good is often harder than doing bad, like shagging my brothers wife?.. These feelings have nothing to do with my personal built in survival instincts. They are something else driving. Possibly a safety net to stop insanity taking over at the notion that good, bad and your life means nothing.

On the other hand, it could be down to a little bit of hope. I don't know if god or jesus exist but I do know we also don't know for a fact that life ends after death. We know people have died and been revived reporting nothing but black. They were potentially not dead long enough for what ever passes over.. to pass over. It takes 9 month to conceive a baby for example, who has no recollection of the early days/weeks of cell division. The same type of passage could be true after death. If you pass over into some other raw energy type existence or something else of such a nature, you would not be able to return to this reality and speak with loved ones.

So yeah, I'm still sitting on the fence but have one foot in the garden of nothingness.

I forgot to make the real point o0. I think we constantly ask the wrong questions in regards to the existence of any god or what is after death. It would be better to focus on the elusive ''meaning of life''. It seems odd life would evolve to be utterly pointless. Even in nature you see a tendency to waste nothing. If nature is a by product of the universe you would assume the universe (probably far greater than we will ever comprehend) also wastes nothing. If you were going to create something for nothing then surely the answer would be don't create anything in the first place. Perhaps logic is a weakness in understanding subjects like this.

For me, one explanation is that life developed to fuel (perhaps minutely) the expansion of the universe in some way. We don't know how many planets have life on them or at what point but we do know a by product of life is methane as one simple and possible use for life. That still begs the question of what is the point of the universe expanding, let alone what is it expanding into.

This leads back to my somewhat feelings of despise for naive scientists or people who claim an after life 100% is or is not. Their are many wave lengths of light and sound on this very planet we can not see or hear. Many processes both above and below the ocean we do not understand. A huge portion of the known universe is there but ''not measurable by today's means'', then theirs quantum physics. Still, with all that lack of understanding we are confident in saying yes or no to a god or after life entirely based on what we can not see. Arguably their might well be a god like presence pulling the strings and is too busy with things that actually matter rather than tend to one fearful species out of potentially trillions. Or ofc, their might not be.
 
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greasemonkeymann

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
schnooby said:
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-modern-groundwater-20151116-story.html
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so which is it?
and still, that's your argument for the flood?
and like I said the earth has a finite amount of water.
so god made all the water magically spring out of the water, and simultaneously NOT absorbed back into it? I guess if what you think defies physics and logic, I can't convince you otherwise.
That's a very interesting argument man.
One that I simply am not going to take part of.
 
bird mcbride

bird mcbride

Well-Known Member
greasemonkeymann said:
so which is it?
and still, that's your argument for the flood?
and like I said the earth has a finite amount of water.
so god made all the water magically spring out of the water, and simultaneously NOT absorbed back into it? I guess if what you think defies physics and logic, I can't convince you otherwise.
That's a very interesting argument man.
One that I simply am not going to take part of.
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You see...after the molten Earth cooled there was a huge amount of h2o trapped under a very thin crust. When this mantle cracked from cooling and contracting it could no longer support its bubble like state and plummeted into the depth creating the all water planet. And because large volumes of h2o were attracted to the poles and froze there we got land.

I can understand some dude being followed by a huge crowd if he knew how to make good booze :) Just "think"...water into wine.
 
greasemonkeymann

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
bird mcbride said:
You see...after the molten Earth cooled there was a huge amount of h2o trapped under a very thin crust. When this mantle cracked from cooling and contracting it could no longer support its bubble like state and plummeted into the depth creating the all water planet. And because large volumes of h2o were attracted to the poles and froze there we got land.

I can understand some dude being followed by a huge crowd if he knew how to make good booze :) Just "think"...water into wine.
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ahhhh...
I see it so clearly now!
the earth IS flat!
and THATS why it worked, plus the moon landing was faked, Christianity ISNT just a repeated version of a bunch of retold parables, and in reality?
well shit man.
America is awesome, go TRUMP
yee haw.
So glad it'd Friday...
I got eight hours till mass quantities of sushi, beer, saki, and a cute girl to accompany me.
Which means nothing but agreement from me today
everything is A-ok
 
schnooby

schnooby

Well-Known Member
greasemonkeymann said:
so which is it?
and still, that's your argument for the flood?
and like I said the earth has a finite amount of water.
so god made all the water magically spring out of the water, and simultaneously NOT absorbed back into it? I guess if what you think defies physics and logic, I can't convince you otherwise.
That's a very interesting argument man.
One that I simply am not going to take part of.
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youre not making any sense man.

you criticized the first link because it said there was water under the crust.....then i provided a link showing there is water in the crust as well.

Nowhere did i say definitively that i knew exactly which processes were involved in the flood......the bible mentions at least two "the great deep was broken up" and " the windows of heaven were opened" Genesis 7:11

Now, go ahead and redicule all you want.....i find it a rather intellectually lazy way out but go ahead.

The fact of the matter is science is continuously uncovering MORE, not less, evidence which backs up many accounts from the bible as well as other ancient sources. People like you sit so secure and smug in your supposed understanding of science, meanwhile you refuse to acknowledge other scientific sources of legitimate, credible information which challenge many of the antiquated academic ideas many of the old guard cling to with trembling hands.

Mainstream scientists are becoming not just more comfortable with the idea of catastrophism playing key roles in critical periods of earths history, but are also becoming more convinced all the time that catastrophic events were the likely culprits of massive flooding, tectonic upheavals, etc.

So im not sure what youre talkiing about when you appear to be mocking the idea water could be displaced within the interior of the earth to the surface of the earth and that it would violate gravity or laws of physics. Take a straw and stick it into a cup of water, place your finger over the top of the straw and pull the straw out.......what happened? Water stays inside the straw because of a force that in that situation overcomes the force of gravity.

I hope you can employ that vast imagination you think you have and try to not oversimplify things to a cartoonish extreme and realize there are dozens of conditions which could exist causing vast amounts of water to move from one place to another without violating any laws. If you cannot conceive of that possibility or admit to the evidence showing it happens then as far as i can tell youve ceded your personal curiosity and intellectual integrity to "the experts" and moved from the drivers seat to the back passenger seat sitting in a booster chair.
 
greasemonkeymann

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
schnooby said:
youre not making any sense man.

you criticized the first link because it said there was water under the crust.....then i provided a link showing there is water in the crust as well.

Nowhere did i say definitively that i knew exactly which processes were involved in the flood......the bible mentions at least two "the great deep was broken up" and " the windows of heaven were opened" Genesis 7:11

Now, go ahead and redicule all you want.....i find it a rather intellectually lazy way out but go ahead.

The fact of the matter is science is continuously uncovering MORE, not less, evidence which backs up many accounts from the bible as well as other ancient sources. People like you sit so secure and smug in your supposed understanding of science, meanwhile you refuse to acknowledge other scientific sources of legitimate, credible information which challenge many of the antiquated academic ideas many of the old guard cling to with trembling hands.

Mainstream scientists are becoming not just more comfortable with the idea of catastrophism playing key roles in critical periods of earths history, but are also becoming more convinced all the time that catastrophic events were the likely culprits of massive flooding, tectonic upheavals, etc.

So im not sure what youre talkiing about when you appear to be mocking the idea water could be displaced within the interior of the earth to the surface of the earth and that it would violate gravity or laws of physics. Take a straw and stick it into a cup of water, place your finger over the top of the straw and pull the straw out.......what happened? Water stays inside the straw because of a force that in that situation overcomes the force of gravity.

I hope you can employ that vast imagination you think you have and try to not oversimplify things to a cartoonish extreme and realize there are dozens of conditions which could exist causing vast amounts of water to move from one place to another without violating any laws. If you cannot conceive of that possibility or admit to the evidence showing it happens then as far as i can tell youve ceded your personal curiosity and intellectual integrity to "the experts" and moved from the drivers seat to the back passenger seat sitting in a booster chair.
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ok your explanation totally makes sense.
there was a giant straw that god employed to make the flood, gotcha.
My bad.
Happy Friday.
 
schnooby

schnooby

Well-Known Member
greasemonkeymann said:
ok your explanation totally makes sense.
there was a giant straw that god employed to make the flood, gotcha.
My bad.
Happy Friday.
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bravo

absolutely picture perfect example of reductio ad absurdum.........readers take note here.


Heres the thing man, i dont claim to know everything.....i am confident in most things i believe but i consider myself adaptable to new information and i relish discussing isdues with opposing points of view. I dont need you to be particularly polite, i have pretty thick skin, however what i really cannot stand is the pretense people like you make to desire evidence with the intent to change opinion if its convincing enouh, but in actuality all you seem to really want is to engage in argument for sport, which is all well and good of course, but it has nothing at all to do with a real desire and search for truth. Please leave off of acting like youre actually willing to change your beliefs even in the minutest degree. I personally think you already have your mind well made up about what you think of all the big themes.

And you know what? so do i, and i dont feel egotisic or special for saying that.....and neither should you if its the case.


however, for those who are still on the fence.....i urge you to always be skeptical of everything including your own skepticism.......

read every siide to every issue to the exteent possible....


expose yourself to opposing ooints of view and variety of opinion as much as possible


ask why

be curious
 
JCS57

JCS57

Well-Known Member
schnooby said:
Going forward......if we stipulate to what the barebones story the bible actually tells us, it means we must read into the story perhaps more than we should be reasonably allowed given the stark lack of detail about things like microbiological phenomenae. Thus this discussion almost reuuires an undue quantity of theorizing and speculation.

So going back to your first point.yes i have thought about the existence of the things you mentioned.....its not quite the gotcha you might have hoped it was. The fact of the matter is this. If we pretend there was a god who created paradise and then humans fucked it up by disobeying and eating from the forbidden tree, then we can also pretend there would have been some severe consequences to their disobedience, especially since they were specifically warned not to touch or eat of it ". Does the bible bear this out?

..."but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for .
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schnooby said:
sure ill bite but i cant guarantee a prompt response toevery point.

First lets agree that creation narratives, whether they are deistic or athiestic etc depend on some assumptions. In order for there to be an argument there must be premises presented then proven by data which are as free from biased interpretation as possible.

As for me i do not believe completely unbiased analysis can take place......this is a personal a priori belief based on how i view human behavior. ...so please allow me that much.

First lets talk about the flood story. There is not ONE universally agreed version to which all believers stipulate......obviously this could lead to a splintered discussion, therefore we will have to agree to discuss mainly ONE version of the narative. Since you are putting the onus on me to argue against your points perhaps you can allow me to use my personal understanding of the flood story as a reference point for my rebuttals.

My version of the flood story is as follows.

God "created" the earth and all the life on it in 6 days then rested on the 7th. You characterize God as having rested "ever since", citing unspecified creation scientists. What biblical justification is there for believing that after the 7th day God ceased all creative activity or intervention in the affairs of earth? None. There is none because the bible does not tell such a story of the creators involvement in human affairs and even nature.

Its worth mentioning again, i do not, and need not be an expert on every variation or nuance of what "other" people believe about the flood story. I happen to think most people are quite wrong and confused about the flood story and its details.

So.....if we can allow for the possibility, even a likelihood that God did not cease involvement in the goings on of earth then we can have a real discusssion. If however you refuse to grant me that option there is no need for further discussion. I will continue my reply assuming its ok with you that we pretend god continued to be involved with all life on earth.
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At this point you should have stopped. With every let's pretend or my version of and likelihood you inject why not just write your own bible. The two biggest flaws of the Christian Bible are 1) self interpretation in other words making it say what it don't say 2) reading it literally and believing every word is true.
 
schnooby

schnooby

Well-Known Member
JCS57 said:
At this point you should have stopped. With every let's pretend or my version of and likelihood you inject why not just write your own bible. The two biggest flaws of the Christian Bible are 1) self interpretation in other words making it say what it don't say 2) reading it literally and believing every word is true.
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sorry to break it to you buddy, but everyone has their own version of reality. We are just obscenely LUCKY that some of the time enough of our common reality overlaps that we can even understand each other.

get a grip on that for a minute.

Heres another thing to think about. Before you even look at what it is youre arguing for or against, spend at least as much time looking at the TOOL, the internal infrastructure and capability and limitation, of this thing youre using to break down, to deconstruct, analyze, synthesize and then arrive at a reasonable interpretation of the information.......this tool is YOU, its your brain, your mind, you MEAT suit.......and boy dont kid yourself that meat suit comes with an awful lot of baggage that affects how you approach any given thing and how you interact with that thing.

If you havent ever spent some decent time looking deep inside yourself and understanding whats there, literally performing a self inentory and analysis, following the ancient advice of the greatest minds, "know thyself"......then you are ill prepared to effectively parse out and reassemble anything on the order of creation, existence, and the mysteries of life, you just wont get the right answers and probably wont have the riht questions at critical junctions in the truth learning journey.

If youre going to critique an assertion or statement of mine, i kindly ask that you at least attempt to show some well reasoned arguments why i said something logically inaccurate (remember, logic doesnt mean the THING being argued has to be true, only the logic must be sound)


As to your criticism of the bible........perhaps you didnt realize that your criticism literally was not of the bible at all, but rather what PEOPLE are doing to and with the bible. In that regard i agree with you. People do ver often misuse the bible. This literally has NOTHING to do with the bible itself, since misuse of a thing is so common it would be illogical to blame the object for being misused.

Would you like to try again?
 
bird mcbride

bird mcbride

Well-Known Member
Let's take it a bit before the flood. At one point our yellow star was an orange giant and before that a blue super-giant. This star that we refer to as the Sun has nova'd in the past and it will nova again in the future. At the last nova the planet that is now referred to as the Earth was formed, along with various other planets and planetoids. At one point the Earth was nothing but a frozen mud ball, gathering up everything smaller in it's path with its gravitational attraction. The star was in it's last throws of being a orange star and was still experiencing mass solar ejecta. The stars solar system was littered with debris to a point where very little of the stars light reached the Earth. The Earth inherited its large volumes of water by being struck by a massive solar ejecta. This is where the Earth became a fire planet and inherited its Moon. If this collision would not have occurred, there would/could be no life on Earth. When fire burns out it collapses onto itself due to gravitational and magnetic fields...it all make perfect sense if it's put in plain English. At one point the moon was very much like the Earth but when the Moons core cooled it lost its magnetic fields and the Moon lost its lighter elements to the star. One day this will happen to the Earth, most likely before the Sun nova's and becomes a dwarf. At present Venus is a fire planet with a heavy dense atmosphere and Mars where I believe that at one time had vast oceans has lost its fields and most of its lighter elements.
 
schnooby

schnooby

Well-Known Member
bird mcbride said:
Let's take it a bit before the flood. At one point our yellow star was an orange giant and before that a blue super-giant. This star that we refer to as the Sun has nova'd in the past and it will nova again in the future. At the last nova the planet that is now referred to as the Earth was formed, along with various other planets and planetoids. At one point the Earth was nothing but a frozen mud ball, gathering up everything smaller in it's path with its gravitational attraction. The star was in it's last throws of being a orange star and was still experiencing mass solar ejecta. The stars solar system was littered with debris to a point where very little of the stars light reached the Earth. The Earth inherited its large volumes of water by being struck by a massive solar ejecta. This is where the Earth became a fire planet and inherited its Moon. If this collision would not have occurred, there would/could be no life on Earth. When fire burns out it collapses onto itself due to gravitational and magnetic fields...it all make perfect sense if it's put in plain English. At one point the moon was very much like the Earth but when the Moons core cooled it lost its magnetic fields and the Moon lost its lighter elements to the star. One day this will happen to the Earth, most likely before the Sun nova's and becomes a dwarf. At present Venus is a fire planet with a heavy dense atmosphere and Mars where I believe that at one time had vast oceans has lost its fields and most of its lighter elements.
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can i genuinely ask what youre getting at?
 
JCS57

JCS57

Well-Known Member
schnooby said:
sorry to break it to you buddy, but everyone has their own version of reality. We are just obscenely LUCKY that some of the time enough of our common reality overlaps that we can even understand each other.
Common reality is very common we're stuck on the same rock together nothing to get a grip on its unavoidable.

get a grip on that for a minute.

Heres another thing to think about. Before you even look at what it is youre arguing for or against, spend at least as much time looking at the TOOL, the internal infrastructure and capability and limitation, of this thing youre using to break down, to deconstruct, analyze, synthesize and then arrive at a reasonable interpretation of the information.......this tool is YOU, its your brain, your mind, you MEAT suit.......and boy dont kid yourself that meat suit comes with an awful lot of baggage that affects how you approach any given thing and how you interact with that thing.
Yeah the same limitation everyone has so what. You claiming to be the final arbiter of what reasonable interpretation. Let me play, so has Dr adjusted your meds yet to help with those delusions of grandeur.

If you havent ever spent some decent time looking deep inside yourself and understanding whats there, literally performing a self inentory and analysis, following the ancient advice of the greatest minds, "know thyself"......then you are ill prepared to effectively parse out and reassemble anything on the order of creation, existence, and the mysteries of life, you just wont get the right answers and probably wont have the riht questions at critical junctions in the truth learning
If youre going to critique an assertion or statement of mine, i kindly ask that you at least attempt to show some well reasoned arguments why i said something logically inaccurate (remember, logic doesnt mean the THING being argued has to be true, only the logic must be sound)
This is just posturing gibberish.

As to your criticism of the bible........perhaps you didnt realize that your criticism literally was not of the bible at all, but rather what PEOPLE are doing to and with the bible. In that regard i agree with you. People do ver often misuse the bible. This literally has NOTHING to do with the bible itself, since misuse of a thing is so common it would be illogical to blame the object for being misused.Ok get the man a cookie he finally gets it.

Would you like to try again?
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Why something change from yesterday?
 
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