Jacks (JR Peters) nutrients

im4satori said:

NXSOV180db is correct

the iron dtpa should go into the stock tank A with the calcium nitrate


also
not all chelated nutes are soluble in a concentrate

for example i know the copper edta wont work

the Mn and zince Edta might work maybe, but when i tried it i had problems

id recommend using the micro nutes from sulfate
for example
zinc sulphate
copper sulfate
maganese sulfate

keep the edta micro nutes in the event you ever wish to foliar feed but personally i dont use them in my concentrates



the maximum concentration ratio i have mixed without issue is a dose of 7.5mls per gallon part A/B = roughly 4x the concentration of the 1:128 ratio

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I don't use AB solutions, I keep all components separate to account for varying levels of each at different stages of growth. If chelated micros cannot be mixed in the same jug, how is GH and other brands doing it with their micro mixes that contain everything I have plus cobalt and nickel? This is the product I want to create. I did not want to mix it at a thousand gallons to one, but I needed to in order to work molybdenum in at 0.05 ppm.

Edit - Aside from the issue I had with micros, I've been having fantastic results otherwise doing it this way. Other components such as Epsom, MKP and the others I mix at 1 gram to 10ml of RO and that works great for me. I can easily retrieve small doses if need be by shifting the decimal one position, then multiply by number of gallons.

I also found this a couple weeks ago that suggests if Iron is the only chelated nute, the other metals will destabilize the complex and destroy the chelate.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/jacks-jr-peters-nutrients.850683/page-46#post-14771135

Skybound420 said:

I don't use AB solutions, I keep all components separate to account for varying levels of each at different stages of growth. If chelated micros cannot be mixed in the same jug, how is GH and other brands doing it with their micro mixes that contain everything I have plus cobalt and nickel? This is the product I want to create. I did not want to mix it at a thousand gallons to one, but I needed to in order to work molybdenum in at 0.05 ppm.

Edit - Aside from the issue I had with micros, I've been having fantastic results otherwise doing it this way. Other components such as Epsom, MKP and the others I mix at 1 gram to 10ml of RO and that works great for me. I can easily retrieve small doses if need be by shifting the decimal one position, then multiply by number of gallons.

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honestly

i feel you have a habit of over complicating things (which i understand as i have also been prone to do in the past)



and what do you mean your not making stock solution A and B on the previous page your talking about building your own micro nute blend from scratch into a concentrate ... thats a stock solution !!!!! you can have stock solutions A,B,C,D,E,F,G
but they are all still stock solutions

peters stem uses iron edta, your using iron dtpa ...not the same thing
ive not done research on it but i assume the edta works in the stock solutions that contain sulfur and dtpa does not... and thats only based on my hunch and what i know about the jacks, and peters stem which both have iron drived from edta and not dtpa


as far as micro nutes from chelate or edta... im not exaclty sure why
alll i can say is when i tried to mix it it gave me problems
perhaps when its blended in a lab theyve found a way to get it to constitute idk

just becuase GH or advanced has figured out how to blend the chelates by using a chemist doesnt mean you can do the same thing from home... i honestly have no idea why it works for them or what theyv done to get it to work



heres an example
GH flroa grow and flora nova... or GH maxi grow and maxi bloom
some how theyv managed to put all the minerals in one product to make a 1 part fertilizer without the chemical reactions between calcium and sulfur

but
that doesnt mean i can rebuild the floranova 1 part from home ... if i where to put the calcium nitrate in the same concentrate as the sulfates id be in big trouble


maybe you can do some research on the chelates and get it figured out.... but in my experience its completely unnecessary and your only over complicating things... i noticed the copper wouldnt fully constitute and i began having micro nutrient issues that id never had previously having done it for many many years so i quickly switched back out of the chelates... i read some info somewhere about solubility but this goes back many years so i really cant speak on it intelligently

imho i suspect the chelates are just another way for the hyped out brands to make additional false claims as to why there product is superior to all others and you be far better off applying the efforts in other areas of your grow

plus theres also some conversation to be had over cations and anions and the relationship between elements and how chelates affect the uptake


stock tank A
calcium nitrate
iron dtpa
potassium nitrate
magnesium nitrate
nitric acid
potassium chloride


stock tank B
potassium nitrate
magnesium nitrate
potassium chloride
mkp
potassium sulfate
magnesium sulfate
zinc sulfate
maganese sulfate
copper sulfate
boron
molyb sodium
pek acid
sulphuric acid
phospuric acid
cobalt ( optional)
nickel (optional)

those are the options i use and they are grouped into what will work in one concentrate
the potassium nitrate for example could go in either stock tank, while the calcium nitrate or any calcium product must be kept seperate from the sulfur or youll get gypsum


if you put the iron dtpa in the wrong concentrate (with the other micros) then thats your problem... idk for certain youd need to confirm but perhaps if you where using iron edta it might be you could put the iron in with the sulfates but the iron dtpa should absolutely be with the calcium nitrate concentrate

ive been mixing this stuff for a loooooong time and ive not had any issues with the micro sulfates like zinc, or copper or whatever not constituting properly unless something was added to the concentrate thats not compatible

heres one more example
there are some brands of fertilizer ive seen recenlty that contain silica with in the concentrate
i have no idea how theyve managed to get silica into the same bottle as the other stuff in a concentrate or if its even stable...or maybe its such trace amounts it works idk
but
youll never manage to add Si to your concentrates at home without some serious issue

this is what hydrobuddy says when you try and use copper edta

i highly recommend this book to you

its available as a free down load if you can find it

i know customhydronutrient.com had it on the site for a while not sure if its still there or not

so i got curious and went and looked at the GH 3part micro

again... i dont know for sure im only speculating but i noticed they put all the edta chelates in the calcium stock solution vs putting it in with all the sulfur reagents

perhaps the reason i had trouble was from adding the chelates to the wrong stock solution or concentrate

maybe had i added the chelates to the same concentrate as the calcium it would have worked... i honestly dont knwo for sure!

maybe take a look at the advanced nutes line up and see where or how they used the edta chelates and see if its also in the calcium side of the concentrate also... could just be a matter of me adding it to the wrong stock tank



for whatever reason hydrobuddy wont allow copper edta to be used but it will allow zinc edta

let me see where hydro buddy puts it and i will be back in a minute

nope

hydrobuddy will also not allow manganese edta to be used either.. says its incompatible

but
it will allow zinc edta to be used but it adds it to the sulfur side of the concentrates

so that was no help and provided no useful answers lol



the more i think on it the more i recall
keep in mind this is going back like ten years so my memeory is foggy

i beleive i mixed an entire batch using edta and started having all kinds of issue... then i dumped it and tried it again only thins time i used only the zinc edta becuase of the hydrobuddy allowing zinc edta but not allowing the others

but
i still was having what looked like zinc deficiency so i ultimately stopped using all the edta micro products

and i seem to have some memory of finding literature on the subject at the time but i cant recall

I will have to reinstall hydrobuddy or locate the proper formula to input into the custom solution because as I have them, I do not get any errors when compiling.

I'm not trying to over complicate, or be a pain in the ass, but I can only make decisions based on the info I know at any given moment. That said, I refer you back to when we first started the Q&A and how you schooled me to the idea of of giving them only what they need and not more. Perhaps that is where we split apart as I wanted to know what are good targets for each stage and was able to get from you the highs and lows of each. Well, when working within the confines of Jack's as a Part A, or Peter's as the A, I found it ever more difficult to dial in my targets and had to make peace with wide ranges of error if I were to use the solutions I was using and I just wanted life to be "simpler".

I need to stress just how little information I am able to find on the internet which leaves yourself and @nxsov180db as my only real viable sources of info, and he gave me good micro targets that I have greatly desired to get to, yet the Jacks/Peters+STEM forbade me from achieving all while my leaves struggled to maintain a certain degree of health and is the primary reason I sought to nix all of those products and build my own from the ground up. I also beg your forgiveness as it relates to my not wanting to use the words AB solutions as the internet is chock full of writeups that discuss how to make "pretty good" AB solutions that should get me "close enough" results, ie GH, AN, Dynagro etc. I am not wanting to get close, I want to get to dead on. So for the sake of continuity, I'll meet you halfway and say that my micro mix is my only stock solution that consists of all the micros, each targeted and concentrated to produce 1000 gallons from one gallon. CalNite is my only source of calcium and it is mixed at 189.xx grams per half gallon of RO, ie 10ml = 1 gram of CalNite. All of the other components are also in their own jug and mixed to the same 189.xx grams per half gallon.

My experience with sulfate micros is brief, but extremely convincing. I've dug up plenty of 50 year drain pipes in my days and never have I seen water as rusty as what I tossed out the other day. The jug is permanently stained orange as a result, such that Trump would be jealous, lol. But that crap locked right up and fell. I had the DTPA at the time, but the research I linked in my previous post suggests that any other unchelated metal will ruin the chelate complex the encases the iron if they don't have their own chelates which is why I did not want to mix the iron in with the metallic sulfates. I then ordered all the EDTA metals and as of now, you're the only one telling me that I can't mix the DTPA with the EDTA, yet w/o being able to provide a source or concise explanation as to why, I have no way of "knowing" why it won't work. I do know that GH uses 3 different sources of iron in DTPA, EDTA and EDDHA, though I wouldn't dare try to combine all 3 into one w/o learning much more. Still, the fact that they did told me it could be done so I made the decision to mix my DTPA in with the other EDTA metals knowing that everything now has their own chelates and shouldn't compete and crack the DTPA apart. FWIW, I have no settled residues on the bottom of the jugs, and the color is a very dark green with a very faint hue of orange, but I emphasize on faint.

I haven't come across any info that suggests these micros cannot be mixed together or concentrated and I will always keep searching for any info that would otherwise disprove anything that I think I know.

ya
im not really 100% sure

as far as info

that book i sent you is like a college grade agricultural book and doesnt speak in terms of marijuana

itll probably have the answers to most of your questions... the book is 500 pages

TBH, I hit a brick wall when trying to reverse engineer anything from AN. It seems they are very secretive regarding their blends and only put very limited info on their bottles. I tried crunching their numbers for a guy online and was only able to locate about half of the micros found in jack's and when comparing Jack's to GH, GH has even more. So either AN isn't using all the micros, or they're not sharing the data on it. Here's GH Flora Micro for reference. I noticed they have calcium, nitrogen, potassium and magnesium all in the bottle.

Another thing to know about Skybound, I don't know how to do the math and w/o Hydro Buddy, I'd still be mixing GH and guessing a lot. That said, when I look at these bottles, I get lost when trying to understand the solution when thinking in terms of % and how that translates to PPM.

I'll locate that book and get to reading, though I'm a slow reader, even when not smoking pot, and I'' have to use what I have till I finish the read or locate any info that will conflict. I'll get on it and thank you for the wisdom and tips and study leads.

Jaw hits floor!!!

That book is $104

https://customhydronutrients.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=453&products_id=730&zenid=otcl0f2lqfh24du8hv3hm723r1

Skybound420 said:

Jaw hits floor!!!

That book is $104

https://customhydronutrients.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=453&products_id=730&zenid=otcl0f2lqfh24du8hv3hm723r1

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free down load

check the custom hydro site or send him an email and he will email you the book or show you where the download is on his site

or hit my pm with your email and i can send it to you

im4satori said:

free down load

check the custom hydro site or send him an email and he will email you the book or show you where the download is on his site

or hit my pm with your email and i can send it to you

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I found another method, but the same end result, lol.

Skybound420 said:

TBH, I hit a brick wall when trying to reverse engineer anything from AN. It seems they are very secretive regarding their blends and only put very limited info on their bottles. I tried crunching their numbers for a guy online and was only able to locate about half of the micros found in jack's and when comparing Jack's to GH, GH has even more. So either AN isn't using all the micros, or they're not sharing the data on it. Here's GH Flora Micro for reference. I noticed they have calcium, nitrogen, potassium and magnesium all in the bottle.

Another thing to know about Skybound, I don't know how to do the math and w/o Hydro Buddy, I'd still be mixing GH and guessing a lot. That said, when I look at these bottles, I get lost when trying to understand the solution when thinking in terms of % and how that translates to PPM.

View attachment 4303838

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ya

AN doesnt list the % amounts for much of the micros but they still list the ingredient on the derived from list

i also dont klnow how to tdo the math lol... thank god for calculators lol

Page 56

Most hydroponic formulas call for the use of a chelated form of Fe to
ensure that its presence in the nutrient solution is maintained in an available
form. Although iron ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid (FeEDTA) has been widely
used as an Fe source, ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid (EDTA) is toxic to plants
(Rengel, 2002), and therefore the diethylenetriaminepentaacetic acid (DTPA)
chelate form is recommended, although its possible toxicity to plants has yet
to be determined.

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I tried searching that book and so far no luck trying to disprove myself, nor have I found where it might elaborate what rules would apply to making custom solutions and/or mixing DTPA with EDTA, but I'll keep querying with Ctrl/F. In the mean time I am trying to get Hydro Buddy to give me the same error that you got and maybe work back from there, but so far no luck on that either. Can you tell me what formulations you have for ZnEDTA, MnEDTA, CuEDTA you have? I found a formula for copper online, but I'm not sure I used the right one as there were several.



The above is just a 100 gallon solution. If I had a scale that graduated to the thousandth, I'd mix a 100 gal mix, but mine only goes to a hundredth so I must mix the 1000 gal mix.

Skybound420 said:

I tried searching that book and so far no luck trying to disprove myself, nor have I found where it might elaborate what rules would apply to making custom solutions and/or mixing DTPA with EDTA, but I'll keep querying with Ctrl/F. In the mean time I am trying to get Hydro Buddy to give me the same error that you got and maybe work back from there, but so far no luck on that either. Can you tell me what formulations you have for ZnEDTA, MnEDTA, CuEDTA you have? I found a formula for copper online, but I'm not sure I used the right one as there were several.

View attachment 4303896

The above is just a 100 gallon solution. If I had a scale that graduated to the thousandth, I'd mix a 100 gal mix, but mine only goes to a hundredth so I must mix the 1000 gal mix.

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i didnt do anything special i just clicked on the provided list of options and choose the copper edta

but now that you mention i should go into the page to make sure the values are all proper as that could explain my error possibly idk

yup
my mistake, sorry for the confusion
the info wasnt input correctly and thats why it rejects the copper edta

thanks for catching that for me skybound

Regarding your copper, zinc and mang, are there formulas listed in the defaults? I rename shit to keep things close and I notice those 3 no longer have formulas which made me think if there ever was a formula to begin with?