It's My Life ... !

Your wrong we don't live in a democracy, we live in a democratic republic. There is a huge difference. In a republic the government is suppose to be constrained by a constitution. The founders created a republic because democracy is just mob rule. Well i guess you are right we do live in a democracy since the constitution meant to constrain government was thrown out the window long ago. Down with individual rights, long live mob rule.
Read your Constitution again....majority rule was established by the founding fathers. Athens was a republic without a constitution. Republics are not defined by the presence or absence of a constitution. It is defined by the public being able to have influence on government. The word comes from the latin "res publica" which mean "public influence" or public affairs.
 

ViRedd

New Member
Read your Constitution again....majority rule was established by the founding fathers.

Based upon your previous posts, its obvious that you are an entrenched lefty. Therefore, there is no point in presenting facts to you as your mind is made up. I mean, really ... Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld were "war criminals?" If so, what is Obama and the rest of the Progressives now in control of our government? Drones over Afghanistan anyone? :lol:

On the above ... Please point out where "democracy" is mentioned in the Constitution. I have a copy right here in front of me and I can't find any reference to democracy. Thanks ...

Finally, like a lot of Progressives and wanna-be's who post here, you make a lot of assumptions. Just by the very fact that one is in support of free markets, free minds, individual liberty, sound money and limited government, does not mean that one is a Republican, or was in support of the Bush administration ... or even that one voted for same.

Tyranny is a bitch, and forcing people into your little box of rules, then you controlling the box is not liberty my friend.

By the way ... I reside in the sovereign Republic of California. Which sovereign Republic do you reside in? :lol:
 
Dutch....if you want pre WWII medicine...step right up. They had only one antibiotic...DNA hadnt been discovered yet...no MRI machines....no CT scans...and polio was epidemic. On the other hand, if you want 21st Century health care...its technology driven...and much too expensive for charities to cover universally...without rationing. Hope you got your H1N1 vaccine...cause under your scheme...the Red Cross wont have money for it later.
This is purely a straw man argument and nothing more. Like i said if it wasn't for the FDA this technology would increase much faster and be much cheaper. And in my scheme the Red Cross would probably have more money seeing as they are a private organization. If people have more money they are likely to donate more

Yes...I am sure that the insurance companies will do the right thing for people in the absence of government regulations. The free market is already demonstrating how caring the corporations are.....despite record profits...they continue to deny coverage and deny payments to those with expensive health needs.
I never said anything about corporations providing charity, I was talking about individuals. Corporations will do what they have to in order to maximize profits even if it is immoral

...and half the medications you are taking would be either toxic or ineffective. Cheap medicine that doesnt work...or makes u sicker...thats what this country needs!!
Please this is pure speculation with no evidence to back it up. I highly doubt coporations would put out medicine that harmed people, considering they would still be held liable for the damage it causes. They also would not put otu medicine that didn't work because 1) It would hurt the companies image and credibility and 2) That would be fraud and they would be held liable for it.

The AMA has nothing to do with certifying MDs. Only about 40% of docs are members of the AMA. I'm not a member..although I am licensed to practice in three states. That's a major misconception.
You are right I was wrong about this. I meant state licensing laws

Patents for medications last 7 years, and under special circumstances renewed once. I agree that big pharma is a problem in the way they charge for medications...but 7 years isnt ridiculously long. If you patented an invention that you developed...how long a patent would you find to be reasonable? would you be happy with 7 years of patent protection?
Are you sure its seven years? Everything I've read says its 20 years.

54% of our budget goes to fund the military and national defense....the two overt wars...started by the Bush administration..and the covert was in Pakistan started by the Obama administration. Instead of spending billions on education, healthcare, public infrastructure, and other things to improve the quality of life of Americans...we spend it on war. This isnt the way I want the government to spend my tax dollars...but...its not up to me. I still have to pay taxes. Its not that it is too much...but...I view it as being misallocated. Intrusive? I disagree...not intrusive enough...they let the banks get away with amazing shit...they let Wall Street go wild. Regulations were not enforced in order to benefit the corporations...they came very close to bankrupting the whole country.
Yes I agree the military is a huge waste of money. Imagine how many people Americans could voluntarily help with that money stolen from them. That is the problem with government spending. Some people think it should go for this others think it should go for that. Thats why people should be able to keep their money and give it to whomever they want.

And as for not being to intrusive, you have to be kidding me. The war on drugs has eroded away almost all of our civil liberties, while the war on terror is trying to take away the rest.

And as for regulations, many regulations are written to benefit, not hurt corporations. The lobbyist for the corporations help write the regulations as a way to keep new competitors out of the market by increasing the barrier of entry into the market.
And even if they are forced to actually keep businesses honest, you have the capture effect which always corrupts regulatory agencies.


By the way...you are also incorrect about the who gives most to charity. I wish it was the rich...but in truth...it is the middle and lower classes that are the mainstay of most charitable organizations. We are fooled into thinking its the rich..because they show up in the media ...dressed in tuxedos...and paying $500k a plate at charity dinners. But that isnt where most of the money comes from.
What you are referring to is relative donations to charity. Yes the poor give more in relative terms (4 to 5% of income vs rich 3 to 4% of income), but the rich give more to charity in absolute terms.
 
Read your Constitution again....majority rule was established by the founding fathers. Athens was a republic without a constitution. Republics are not defined by the presence or absence of a constitution. It is defined by the public being able to have influence on government. The word comes from the latin "res publica" which mean "public influence" or public affairs.
Yes I was wrong I was in a hurry and wasn't thinking. What I meant was this country is a constitutional republic not a democracy. But I think you are the one who needs to read their constitution, and maybe the federalist papers while youre at it. The founders put the constitution in place to restrain government power, like the universal healthcare you are advocating for. It was a pretty good document, its to bad it has been warped so much that its virtually meaningless now.
 

ViRedd

New Member
Representatives of the thirteen individual states came together at a convention in Philadelphia to hammer out the rules for the new federal government. They came up with a contract, or a constitution of rules, if you will, that the central government was to abide by. These rules/powers are very limited in scope, with all other powers retained by the states. The powers granted to the federal government are contained in Article I, Section 8.

Some ... and I repeat ... SOME of the Natural Rights bestowed upon the citizens by the God of Nature are contained in The Bill of Rights. The Ninth Amendment makes it perfectly clear: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

The Tenth Amendment limits the powers of the federal government thusly: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Honestly, I don't see what's so difficult about understanding this.

Now then, Progressives ... tell us again where the federal government derives the power to force the citizens of the States to buy any specific product ... like health insurance, for example. :lol:
 
Read your Constitution again....majority rule was established by the founding fathers.

"Based upon your previous posts, its obvious that you are an entrenched lefty. Therefore, there is no point in presenting facts to you as your mind is made up. I mean, really ... Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld were "war criminals?" If so, what is Obama and the rest of the Progressives now in control of our government? Drones over Afghanistan anyone? :lol:"


Like Glenn Beck, and Sarah Palin and the other heroes of the right wing, you choose to label (Obama = Commie Nazi) instead
of deal with the facts. Actually...it was your colleague on the right PasstheDutch who referred to them as War Criminals...not that I would argue with that characterization in any way. Actually..I am a progressive.

"On the above ... Please point out where "democracy" is mentioned in the Constitution. I have a copy right here in front of me and I can't find any reference to democracy. Thanks ... "

Article 1, Sections 1-10 lay out the formation of a representative democracy by which the country is to be governed. Article 2 explains how the democratic process will work. Read it again!

"Finally, like a lot of Progressives and wanna-be's who post here, you make a lot of assumptions."

Sorry...I am not a wanna-be...I care for the poor, sick and hungry on a daily basis. I live my beliefs. These are my values.

"Tyranny is a bitch, and forcing people into your little box of rules, then you controlling the box is not liberty my friend."

So...no rules...an anarchy of the right? Rape is ok...stealing ok....murder ok? Big business and the banking industry can do whatever it likes? No rules? You must live somewhere there are no people.
//QUOTE]
 
"This is purely a straw man argument and nothing more. Like i said if it wasn't for the FDA this technology would increase much faster and be much cheaper.
"Please this is pure speculation with no evidence to back it up. I highly doubt coporations would put out medicine that harmed people, considering they would still be held liable for the damage it causes. They also would not put otu medicine that didn't work because 1) It would hurt the companies image and credibility and 2) That would be fraud and they would be held liable for it."
Here are the facts on the FDA and the safety of compounds evaluated by them: Approximately 70% of drugs entering clinical trials complete Phase I, 33% complete Phase II, and 27% complete Phase III. Why do only 27% of new medications make it to market?....because 83% of new drugs from the pharmaceutical industry are too toxic for human use or are ineffective for the disorder they developed for.

"Are you sure its seven years? Everything I've read says its 20 years."

You are correct that patents last for 20 years, however the average drug takes 12 years and $270 million from initial discovery to public usage. Thus, there are between 7 and 8 years remaining for a company to market a compound before the patent expires.

"And as for not being to intrusive, you have to be kidding me. The war on drugs has eroded away almost all of our civil liberties, while the war on terror is trying to take away the rest."

I have to agree with you on this. However, lets not forget the origins of the drug war...that right wing darling Richard Nixon was the first to declare a "war on drugs". Subsequently, the right's other great hero, Ronald Reagan put teeth into the war on drugs expanding its efforts to arrest drug users as well as dealers. He created the White House Office of National Drug Policy and ended research on medical benefits of drugs. While the Obama administration has not changed the policies, they have at least stopped the DEA from using the language of a drug war. Of course the loss of civil liberties related to the war on terror is more recent, with George Bush wiretapping, torturing, and spying on Americans. The argument for doing so, was to protect the U.S. from terrorist attacks in the post 9/11 era.

We are all waiting to see what the Obama administration does about both the drug war and war on terror. Most politically savvy people think that if changes will occur..they will occur during his second term....because Repugs will characterize Obama as being "soft on drugs" and "soft on terror" if he liberalizes any of the policies set into place by the Repugs.
 

Man o' the green

Active Member
Sorry...I am not a wanna-be...I care for the poor, sick and hungry on a daily basis. I live my beliefs. These are my values.

"Tyranny is a bitch, and forcing people into your little box of rules, then you controlling the box is not liberty my friend."

So...no rules...an anarchy of the right? Rape is ok...stealing ok....murder ok? No rules? You must live somewhere there are no people.
Willingly caring for the poor, sick and hungry is not progressivism, it's compassion. Forcing people to care for the poor, sick and hungry is progressivism.
The constitution ensures liberty by limiting the federal government. All other rules/laws can be handled at the most local level possible. We need some laws to ensure our liberty, like the ones you described, but laws that try to coerce ones actions to a standard that is "government approved" takes away from liberty, as well as any federal control not specifically given to it by article 1.
We have rules. If you don't like them, argue for constitutional changes, but don't bend the constitution to fit the meaning you think is the most beneficial to society.
 
"Willingly caring for the poor, sick and hungry is not progressivism, it's compassion.
Forcing people to care for the poor, sick and hungry is progressivism."
//QUOTE]

Really? Who is forcing the greedy and self centered to do anything? Progressives believe that all men are created equal and are of equal value. The role of government in part is to ensure life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness by providing care and opportunity to the least well off and the most well-off citizens.

"The constitution ensures liberty by limiting the federal government."

This is the Federalist papers...not the Constitution. Show me where it says that in the actual U.S. Constitution. Or do you get all your knowledge of Constitional law from Fox News?
 

Man o' the green

Active Member
Really? Who is forcing the greedy and self centered to do anything? Progressives believe that all men are created equal and are of equal value. The role of government in part is to ensure life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness by providing care and opportunity to the least well off and the most well-off citizens.

"The constitution ensures liberty by limiting the federal government."

This is the Federalist papers...not the Constitution. Show me where it says that in the actual U.S. Constitution. Or do you get all your knowledge of Constitional law from Fox News?
The government forces us to pay taxes and then uses that money for other than what the constitution allows for. Any taxation is a loss of liberty.
Don't assume that if I don't like paying taxes because of their ultimate use, that I am either greedy or self-centered.
The only role of government is to ensure the freedoms of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness ( and property ) Our federal government is limited in it's scope of how it can effect those freedoms, and these restrictions are very clearly defined within the constitution. There are a limited number of permissible actions. Which one gives the federal government authority to redistribute wealth ?

And yes, I am actually a commentator for FOX in disguise and a racist tea party supporter, and since the source automatically invalidates one's points, I must be wrong.
 

medicineman

New Member
Well, actually being a comentator for Fox Noise or a teabagger would surely relegate your info to the trash pile, but when rights are passed out, what happens to the poor, Oh My, that's right, they get fucked, Big Time. This society function by the size of ones wealth, no wealth, no rights. A society that allows trhe rich to make all the rules will certainly end up as a dictatorship eventually. One person, one Vote. Obama won, get over it. He actually has enraged the progressives like me for doing way too little for the poor and this medical debacle without a public option is nothing more than a giveaway to the insurance firms. Progressive = progress, conservatives = Backwardness. So to all you conservatives, I wish you all could go back to the 18th century, drivin around in your surry and chewin tobaccy, Good riddance I say.
 
The government forces us to pay taxes and then uses that money for other than what the constitution allows for. Any taxation is a loss of liberty.
Don't assume that if I don't like paying taxes because of their ultimate use, that I am either greedy or self-centered.
The only role of government is to ensure the freedoms of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness ( and property ) Our federal government is limited in it's scope of how it can effect those freedoms, and these restrictions are very clearly defined within the constitution. There are a limited number of permissible actions. Which one gives the federal government authority to redistribute wealth ?

And yes, I am actually a commentator for FOX in disguise and a racist tea party supporter, and since the source automatically invalidates one's points, I must be wrong.
Not sure where you get this from...but it surely isnt in the U.S. Contitution. The 16th Amendment deals with the power of taxation. I think I would be more respectful if you actually had a stated that this is your OPINION rather than an accurate representation of governmental functioning. The government isnt engaged in redistributing wealth...but it is taxing the poor and the middle class more than it taxes the wealthy.

..Fox News takes advantage of people like you by airing untruths and blatent lies about government and its function. Not to mention their ongoing efforts to slam the Obama administration. Less sophisticated folks somehow think that Glenn Beck, Hannity and O'Reilly actually know something about which they speak because they are on TV. I think the real problem lies in the fact that many satellite tv services in rural areas ONLY carry Fox as their only source of news and information. You deserve to know the fact....not the televised bullshit of the Repug propaganda outlet.
 
Well, actually being a comentator for Fox Noise or a teabagger would surely relegate your info to the trash pile, but when rights are passed out, what happens to the poor, Oh My, that's right, they get fucked, Big Time. This society function by the size of ones wealth, no wealth, no rights. A society that allows trhe rich to make all the rules will certainly end up as a dictatorship eventually. One person, one Vote. Obama won, get over it. He actually has enraged the progressives like me for doing way too little for the poor and this medical debacle without a public option is nothing more than a giveaway to the insurance firms. Progressive = progress, conservatives = Backwardness. So to all you conservatives, I wish you all could go back to the 18th century, drivin around in your surry and chewin tobaccy, Good riddance I say.

Thanks for chiming in, man. I totally agree. I cant believe they are actually supporting this backwards bullshit in the 21st Century. The thing that disturbs me the most is way these people are essentially working against their own interests. The public option would have been the greatest thing this country could offer its citizens....and in their minds its some Commie Nazi plot ruin the country. Wait til they get cancer or heart disease....only then will they understand that if you dont have good health....your life is shit!
 

Man o' the green

Active Member
Not sure where you get this from...but it surely isnt in the U.S. Contitution. The 16th Amendment deals with the power of taxation. I think I would be more respectful if you actually had a stated that this is your OPINION rather than an accurate representation of governmental functioning. The government isnt engaged in redistributing wealth...but it is taxing the poor and the middle class more than it taxes the wealthy.

..Fox News takes advantage of people like you by airing untruths and blatent lies about government and its function. Not to mention their ongoing efforts to slam the Obama administration. Less sophisticated folks somehow think that Glenn Beck, Hannity and O'Reilly actually know something about which they speak because they are on TV. I think the real problem lies in the fact that many satellite tv services in rural areas ONLY carry Fox as their only source of news and information. You deserve to know the fact....not the televised bullshit of the Repug propaganda outlet.
My apologies, it is my opinion on how government should work based on an interpretation of the constitution. It's certainly not how government works.
We could argue about the constitutionality of the 16th amendment or it's ambiguous treatment of taxes, and it's implementation contrary to the 14th. But I'm more interested in my previous question. Where is the explicit authority given to the federal government to regulate private business or personal action through law or coercive law ?
We could also argue about the limits of the commerce clause, if that is the 'justification'.

How can you say that the government doesn't redistribute wealth ? That statement makes no sense.

I don't want to debate about the validity of anything on FOX or any other biased source for that matter, but don't make assumptions by saying "people like me".I've studied the constitution on my own initiative and from different biased sources, I don't need to be spoon fed. We, who may agree with conservative arguments on FOX, are not all drones just regurgitating talking points.
 

medicineman

New Member
Thanks for chiming in, man. I totally agree. I cant believe they are actually supporting this backwards bullshit in the 21st Century. The thing that disturbs me the most is way these people are essentially working against their own interests. The public option would have been the greatest thing this country could offer its citizens....and in their minds its some Commie Nazi plot ruin the country. Wait til they get cancer or heart disease....only then will they understand that if you dont have good health....your life is shit!
I'd bet that most of those opposing health care reform, or Obamacare as they call it, are covered by some decent insurance. They should be estatic, as all their buddies in the insurance business are about to make big bank off the middle class, and even off the poor under goverment assistance. I'll bet as we speak and listen to them bitch, they are out buying medical insurance stock by the boatload. Most of the posters here on the right, you can bet, are above average in wages. That's why they bitch so much about big government and taxes. Where were they when Bush/Cheney put in the patriot act and all the other anti-freedom legislation under executive order, Oh, that's right, they were too busy celebrating the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy.
 

highrise

Active Member
role of government is to ensure the freedoms of life

Even though i believe this is from the Declaration of Independance to me this part points to why the government should be involved in healthcare as it is vital to life.

As for wealth redistribution thats a whole different ballgame and comes down to the weekness inherent in a free market economy. A free market economy works based upon the laws of supply and demand and does not recognise the inherent value of a profession. This can be seen in the huge disparity between the wages of stokebrokers and advertising execs versus janitors and farmers. The latter of which are much more important to a functioning society than the former. The supply of workers for the latter jobs is much larger thus the price paid for these workers is a lot lower.

In a lot of cases this downward pressure on the wages of the most important jobs has made these people unable to afford healthcare, taxes, and other expenses that are rightly their responsibility.

One of the great things about our society though is that Joe the Janitor can learn to be a stokebroker and move up. But this is only looking at one angle of the matter. From another angle you still have to have a janitor and whoever takes Joes place is still earning a wage that will not cover all the expenses we as a society expect him to pay. Now I am NOT saying that everyone should earn equal wages no matter their profession (that removes the stimulus for people to improve their lot in life).

What I am saying is that if we as a society expect each person to carry their own weight and pay for their food, shelter, clothing. healthcare, and taxes then something is going to have to change. Either we pay them more which will cause prices to rise and inflation or we subsidise them via taxes. Either way since we have spent so long redistrubiting the wealth from the bottom to the top we are going to have to deal with the fact that wealth will have to flow back down from the top since there is little left at the bottom to spread among the growing number of low wage but highly important job our society requires.
 
"We could argue about the constitutionality of the 16th amendment or it's ambiguous treatment of taxes, and it's implementation contrary to the 14th. But I'm more interested in my previous question. Where is the explicit authority given to the federal government to regulate private business or personal action through law or coercive law ?
We could also argue about the limits of the commerce clause, if that is the 'justification'."


"How can you say that the government doesn't redistribute wealth ? That statement makes no sense."
Yeah....lets argue about the Commerce Clause in the Constitution (Article I, Section 8, Clause 3)...and its recent application by the Roberts pseudo-constructionist Supreme Court in banning the growing of marijauna. Clearly, I dont agree with that decision, however the Commerse Clause has been ratified by the Supreme Court in numerous cases since Gibbons vs Ogden (1830). Its the law of the land. I'm sure you are a fan of Robert Bork...who argued that since it was wasnt used to much...the founders didnt really intent for it to be used. This argument was sooo well received and deemed so outside the mainstream that Bork did not get confirmed for a position on the Court.

Sorry if I wasnt making sense. Explain yourself. Tell me exactly how you see government redistributing wealth...and while you are at it...I would love to hear about your vision for America ...can you see Russia out your back door?
 

Man o' the green

Active Member
Yeah....lets argue about the Commerce Clause in the Constitution (Article I, Section 8, Clause 3)...and its recent application by the Roberts pseudo-constructionist Supreme Court in banning the growing of marijauna. Clearly, I dont agree with that decision, however the Commerse Clause has been ratified by the Supreme Court in numerous cases since Gibbons vs Ogden (1830). Its the law of the land. I'm sure you are a fan of Robert Bork...who argued that since it was wasnt used to much...the founders didnt really intent for it to be used. This argument was sooo well received and deemed so outside the mainstream that Bork did not get confirmed for a position on the Court.
Of course I don't agree with the Gonzales v Raich decision, but it's just one example in a long line of abuses. And there is nothing wrong with the Gibbons v Ogden decision, I don't see any ambiguity there. I'm not in agreement with Bork exactly, at least his reasoning, but I believe he would have made a good justice. And 'mainstream' doesn't seem to mean much these days...
But what about the new deal precedents that abused the commerce clause only became constitutional after the court was threatened by FDR ? Like the National Labor Relations Board v. Jones & Laughlin Steel Corporation ?

Sorry if I wasnt making sense. Explain yourself. Tell me exactly how you see government redistributing wealth...and while you are at it...I would love to hear about your vision for America ...can you see Russia out your back door?
The progressive income tax is the prime example of wealth redistribution. How does this treat all men equally ?
My vision for America ? Freedom to pursue life, liberty, and property with as little interference as possible. If one state doesn't provide it, I will move to another, but I refuse to give up on my idea of a limited monopolistic federal government.

Let me be more specific : So how exactly does the commerce clause or any precedent related to it allow for the federal regulation of healthcare ? And if it doesn't, what does ?
 

trailerparkboy

Well-Known Member
i almost dont want to get into this but all canadians dont get full health care benefits for there taxes i pay a shitload of income taxes an still pay a monthly healthcare fee
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
I guess Rossman didnt have to take the Hippocratic Oath in South Africa, but he clearly WAS educated under apartheid. Ayn Rand my ass....its all about greed...narcissism....and the perpetuation of social and economic inequality. We, as citizens, have a right not to be fed poisonous food, not to drink poisoned water or contaminated milk....to be prescribed medications that are safe and effective. We can thank government for protecting us from these dangers. All these things comprise the inalienable rights of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness that the founding fathers of the American democracy had in mind. Yes...healthcare IS right for all citizens of the US, Canda...and most European and Latin American countries. Rossman is an embarassment to the practice of medicine...and as a physician...I am disgusted by his greed and self-centeredness.
Funny thing is , the Founding Fathers had no DEMOCRACY in mind at all in fact they absolutely abhorred the idea of the USA being a democracy. We are a Republic and there is a HUGE difference!! Health care by someone else is not a right, you cannot force someone to take care of you at their own expense, the Constitution is directly opposesd to this kind of thinking!! Go learn more and maybe read the Federalist papers while your at it so that you can actully grasp what this country is about, cuz it sure aint about no stinkin Democracy.
 
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