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It's A Fuct World

Discussion in 'Hydroponics / Aeroponics' started by Al B. Fuct, Jan 10, 2011.


    linky Well-Known Member

    I recently just switched to hydro, using flood and drain bucket system (12 4 gal buckets per 55 gal res, flo n gro). I am using house and gardens nutes, a, b, root exel, algen extract, multi zen, drip clean, bloombastic, nitro boost, superthrive, cal mag and have bud candy as well for use in flowering. I have been debating using something like h2o2 as a preventative to baddies forming in my systems. As of now I am just using ro water and nutes. I use 6" grodans and large perlite as medium. I noticed some of the roots look stained brown.. smelled fine (well smelled earthy like). If I wipe my finger over the roots hanging down whatever was making it brown (maybe nutes?) it would wipe off and they would be white. Do not feel slimey at all.

    *** I went and bought some h2o2, 29 percent at the grow store. I am using that now in the res's.

    Another big concern for me is how often to flood. its a ebb n flo system (gro n flo). Has a 55 gal res, 12 4 gal buckets/net pots. I am using 6" grodans and large chunk perlite as medium. I know the grodans will hold quite a bit of water and not sure how often I should be flooding.. I have been flooding 3 times a day in veg but seems it may be to much.. plants look ok. but not as good as they should/could be. I have lowered it to once a day now and will see how that goes.

    I veg for 3 weeks (get plants to about 20-24") before going into flower room, 19/5 light schedule. I veg under 3 600 watt mh's and flower under 6 1k's hps in raptor hoods (vented hoods in veg as well). Flower room has 3 flo n gro setups, doing 3 runs of 12 for a total of 36 plants, cut down every 3 weeks this way. I have been doing this in soil for the past year and just switched to hydro. temps in flower room are 75 with lights on, 68-70 lights off, temps in veg room are 77-79 lights on and 70ish lights off.

    How often should I be flooding overall do you feel?

    ** Just finished reading almost all of al b.'s posts in this thread and noticed you are now using sure to grow medium. I am going to try to get a hold of the 6" blocks they sell and use those for now on.. seems like a better alternative to the grodans.. how often would you flood using the sure to grow blocks in perlite?

    Another thing.. all the nutes/additives I have..

    I see you mainly just use base nutes, A and B.. I was probably ill advised by friends and grow stores and online and paid a TON of money for stuff like root exec, algen extract, bloombastic, nitro boost, AN's bud candy and so on.. Should I just ditch all this stuff and just run A and B through veg and flower? Which house and gardens nute would you run during flower on top of A and B? I see you run something special for week 5 on your grows. I was told and have read bloombastic is good for this time in flower, I'm not there yet so have not tried it.. but at 200 a liter its pricey.

    In soil I vegged to 24".. plants end up around 5' in flower but I yield about 4 ozs a plant of nice dense crystally bud and plan to continue growing to these sizes now that I am in hydro. I have started lollipopping now as well, only did a little bit of this previously.

    As I said I have been using ro water all along.. which again is probably not needed from what I have read in this thread and may switch to just using tap.. water here is roughly 170ppm (have to verify that again, been awhile since I checked last). Having 4 55 gal hydro res's and 3 45 gal just ro water res's for water changes etc is kinda annoying, would be nice to ditch those 3 extra containers and just use tap for everything.. plus won't need to be buying cal mag anymore.

    All your info has been great btw, thank you! Really helped a ton.. and made me realize just how much fuckin money I have wasted it appears lol.


    mountainboy Active Member

    Linky, you better go back and read this thread. Its mentioned about 100 times....lol, Al's gonna chew you a new ass about the bleach.

    linky Well-Known Member

    lol yeah i spent the past few hours reading the thread and see h2o2 is the way to go.

    Adrive Member

    Ph question: tested the run off of four hopeful girlies and it read 9.2-9.5 ph and the ec readings were from .8,1.5 for the two getting a 1.0 ec diet. The other two read 1.8 ec and they receive 2.0 ec diet..

    Flushed the rockwool with 5.5 ph until I got a reading of 6.0-6.5 ph before I transplanted

    Confused about how the ph is so high but the ec readings are perfect with my feeds, plants aren't showing any signs of lockout.

    Just received some loose STG!!!

    oceangreen Well-Known Member

    9.2 runoff.. Something's not right...
    Al B. Fuct

    Al B. Fuct once had a dog named

    Happy to help & thanks for the thanks. :)

    You're not going to like me very much- I would change just about everything that you're doing. Please refer to my 'Get a Harvest Every 2 Weeks' thread as linked in my signature.

    Vegging clones before flowering wastes time and money. SoG produces better quality, easier to manicure buds and more weight per sq ft of lighted space. Please consider switching to plants in pots of absorbent media in flood & drain trays.

    RO is completely unnecessary if you're on typical 1st-world municipal tapwater. 170ppm out of the tap is really quite 'soft' water but ought to have enough Ca & Mg for your purposes.

    'Magic sauces' are indeed a waste of money, with the sole exception of those based on P & K such as Canna PK1314. I am not a gambler but I would put a few bucks on many 'magic sauces' being comprised mainly of water with food dyes added for effect. I've even seen 'bloom boosters' which contain beeswax as a main ingredient- which doesn't even dissolve in water, let alone be taken up by plants, for whatever purpose. 'Bloombastic' is a prime example of a 'magic sauce.' They don't give you any idea of what's in the stuff nor give any plausible mechanism for how it works; they just tell you it's wonderful & charge you $200/L for it. Crap. Anyone telling you they have a 'unique' magic sauce, of which the ingredients are a trade secret, is bullshitting you- and laughing all the way to the bank.

    I'm not familiar with 'home & garden' nutes- never heard of the stuff before. A good 2-part hydroponic nutrient from a large, well-known nutrient maker like GH, AN or Canna is preferred. I've used Canna for more than a decade. It's not the cheapest but it absolutely provides consistent & reliable results. Large mfrs are preferred as their products tend to be more consistent over time.

    Never use laundry bleach as a nute solution steriliser, despite the protestations of some on this & other cannabis boards. H2O2 is far preferable; it breaks down into 2H2O + O upon contact with pathogens, introducing oxygen into the rootmass. If you can only get 29% H2O2, dose your nute solns at 1.7ml/L every 3-4 days. That 'earthy' smell in your rootmasses is being caused by pathogen infections, notably fungi. Rootmasses in hydroponic systems should have no scent at all.


    I try not to bawl anyone out over bad practises- I'm not here to make people feel bad. I'm here to help ppl grow dope frugally. 'Frugal' does not mean 'cheap,' it means value for money.

    pH jumping up is usually a pretty reliable indicator of pathogen infection in the rootmass. 9.5 is out of the ballpark. Don't adjust pH of water before mixing with nutes. 5.5 is too low, in any instance. The magic number for pH in hydroponics is 5.8. Make sure your pH meter is not lying to you. Calibrate your pH meter before EACH use, employing reference standard 4.0 & 7.0 solutions. Colour-matching pH test kits are not suitable for hydroponics. If you don't have one, get a good pH meter. Eutech's meters are reliable and durable. Their pH Tester 10 is a good 'un.

    linky Well-Known Member

    House and Gardens is a higher end nutrient like canna, even comes in the same containers as canna, well the large containers, I thought I heard somewhere canna and house and gardens were related somehow.. not sure though on that.. probably not lol.

    I veg for a few weeks just because I get 4oz per plant doing it that way, I top once about a week into veg.. get 4 or 5 nice colas that get 16" long buds on each one. Granted I have not tried skipping veg stage and going straight to a flower light schedule but I kinda doubt I would be pulling off the same numbers.
    Al B. Fuct

    Al B. Fuct once had a dog named

    Still have never heard of the stuff. Looked them up on the web; seems H&G are miming Canna's label art & colours to give the impression that their product is like Canna's. H&G is not made by Canna & the 2 outfits have no relation to each other. H&G appear to be trying to ride Canna's coattails (and they appear to have persuaded at least you that there's some similarity between the products...) and I find that disingenuous enough that I'd walk a mile away from H&G's products. If H&G are charging Canna-level prices without Canna's well-established, decades-long reputation for performance and quality, I'd not walk, I'd run. How high a product is priced generally offers you no clue about the quality or reliability of the product.

    Per-plant yield is not a particularly good way to gauge the output of a grow op since the sizes of plants can vary broadly. It's more reasonable to gauge productivity by how much weight you're getting for the amount of lighting power you're throwing at the crop. I am flowering with a pair of 1000HPS lamps and yielding about 18oz per 2 weeks while investing no power cost at all in vegging plants that I'll later flower.

    You could characterise productivity in a number of ways, from grams/watt to grams/kWh/year or even grams/kWh/sq ft/year, but this much I can tell you- SoG outperforms any other method, bar none, by any standard of comparison. There's no time nor electricity cost wasted in vegging plants which will be flowered; all lighted floorspace can be devoted to flowering instead of tying it up with vegging.

    doniawon Well-Known Member

    Al what strain r u running these days

    linky Well-Known Member

    I have 36 plants in flower under 6 1k raptor 8" vented hoods.. last 12 I cut down I got 3.25 lbs. so what that equals to cost per watt or whatever other equation to plop that into I dunno.. but I am happy with the results. Plus I am in a state where I am limited to the number of plants I can legally grow. I am just struggling a little with my move to hydro atm.. mostly from misinformation.. as you can read polar opposite opinions from one thread to another. You seem to be a well respected grower and appear to know your shit so I am really taking note of your advice.

    As far as House and Gardens nutrients I can't tell you how good or bad they are. A buddy has been using them for about 3 years now with great results. From what I have read online they make a quality nutrient... other than what I have read and see from my buddies grow I don't know much else about them.. but I could not really tell you about any other nutrient out there either though besides botanicare pro line.. which I used when I was growing in soil.. that seemed to work well for me. Maybe once my 20l containers of h&g a and b are gone I will give canna a try.

    thanks again.
    Al B. Fuct

    Al B. Fuct once had a dog named

    Sweet Tooth No. 4 from Spice of Life. Probably no longer available from SoL. Still running plants which were sprouted from beans bought in 2002. There's other indica dominant hybrids out there which will perform similarly, eg Blockhead.

    Don't forget, when you are vegging plants before flowering them, you must also include the power/cost of the vegging lighting into your productivity calculations.

    That's certainly a viable reason to not use the SoG arrangement. However, if you ever have cause to worry about someone coming in and counting your plants, you need to revisit your security culture.

    Even if I lived in the US in a state where medicinal (or even recreational, given the results of the recent election) cannabis is legal, I would not participate in any registration scheme. Legalities are still far too tenuous given the DEA Schedule 1 prohibition of cannabis at a federal level. Things could flip overnight and the relevant authorities would have my details- for life.

    Noted. The problem with people giving advice about growing is there's so little independent, university-level peer-reviewed research & data. The advice proffered is only as good as the analytical skills of the advisor. It's really easy to make erroneous conclusions about the benefit of certain methods additives etc without doing controlled trials, preferably in parallel to limit variables.

    Thanks. The way one earns respect in this environment is to do the work, describe it well and see if other, independent growers can replicate it. The latter has happened quite a lot in the case of information I've posted to an assortment of cannabis boards over the last 16 years or so.

    If H&G develops a broad track record of good performance, I'm sure they'll find a following. However, to capture a market niche, they're going to have to do more than mimic Canna packaging- they'll be competing on price vs performance- and most notably, reliability across batches over several years. Canna's got about 17 years of history making a world-class product. Challengers have got their work cut out for them.

    linky Well-Known Member

    So with using 6" grodans and perlite how often would your educated be to flood? I just lowered to once a day in flower and in veg. I think I was over watering before. I do want to get a hold of those sure to grow 6" blocks they sell and switch to them though.

    Also as far as a schedule 1 on a federal level that is true but it is in the supreme court right now to have it removed from that list.. crossing my fingers! :)
    Al B. Fuct

    Al B. Fuct once had a dog named

    Rockwool saturates easily. 6" blocks saturate & STAY saturated unless there's a large, thirsty plant in 'em. Overwatering problems are almost a sure thing when 6" RW blocks are used as the primary (cloning) medium. 6" blocks are intended to be used as a secondary medium- you clone in 40mm (1.5") cubes, then when you have a good spray of roots, plug the 40mm cube into the larger block- see http://grodan101.com/products/grodan-stonewool/blocks/hugo

    Strongly recommend you clone in 40mm cubes then transplant into pots of absorbent media. RW blocks (& floc in pots) tend to hold too much water, which is why I switched to Fytocell some years ago. Recently, I've been using STG loose fill and am very happy with the performance- even better than Fytocell.

    I have no faith whatsoever in SCOTUS making any reasoned decisions on cannabis. This is the mob that brought you Citizens United, overturning 100 years of anti-corruption legislation and ruling that corporations are people. Thomas in particular is corrupt to the core- he opined against the Affordable Care Act (aka Obamacare) while his wife is a fucking lobbyist for Americans for Prosperity (Koch Bros)! How Obama managed to win when numerous GOP states implemented bogus 'voter ID' laws (though mostly blocked by Justice Dept lawsuits) and other electoral shenanigans designed to stop potential Dems from voting (note 6-8hr wait times to vote, esp in Florida) is absolutely amazing.

    Anyway, back to cannabis- SCOTUS will rule that DEA can make any rule it damned well pleases on any substance it deems dangerous or offensive and it need not necessarily justify rules to anyone. Your best bet as a dope grower is to carry on with high security & secrecy, even if you're in Colorado or Washington, which (for the moment) have legalised possession & recreational use.

    linky Well-Known Member

    Hey, I just checked my tap water ppm, its at 149.. will that have enough cal/mag in it to use with no problems without adding calmag additive?


    I clone in root riots.. but just made a cloner using ezcloner spray heads and will be figuring out a way to plant that into the 6" grodans.. and in the future the 6" sure to grow blocks. 8 days in the home made cloner and already have 4 inch roots all over the place outta the clones. :)

    Just saw this article about cal/mag in tap water...


    Just read some info on house and gardens nutes.. I guess its very popular in europe and made from a guy named Van De Zwaan, who I guess also made canna nutes.

    savage007 Member

    Thanks for the help Al, much thanks for taking the time to answer questions and concerns!!

    Best regards,

    DO NOT CONTRACT with anyone as the contract holder makes the "LAWS"....example: Driver License, SSN, MJ Card....anything you sign representing your "ALL CAPS NAME"
    Proper name: John Doe - real flesh and blood
    Name of Corporation: JOHN DOE - NOT an actual being/human

    "OFFICERS" enforce the "LAWS" of the contract holder, "PERSONS" "EMPLOYEES" and other "THINGS" are under the "JURISDICTION" of the "CORPORATION" which is privately owned (USA)

    Failure to READ WHAT YOU SIGN and ignorance of the LAW is no excuse. DO AS I SAY NOT AS I DO...

    You are FREE to choose, so CHOOSE TO BE FREE...

    The ONLY thing we have to FEAR is FEAR itself...

    SIMPLE :blsmoke: be everything you can possibly imagine on the inside and the reality you see will reflect just that

    DND Well-Known Member

    Al... no questions, just want to say thank you for all of the knowledge you have supplied here and in all of your threads. Peace to you my friend!
    Al B. Fuct

    Al B. Fuct once had a dog named

    Ought to be fine. Ca & Mg are micronutes- extremely small quantities are sufficient.
    Root Riot plugs are compressed organic matter, just like Rapid Rooters. I can't recommend either one.

    Cloning in aerocloners is all well & good if you are going to grow the clones in an aeroponic or DWC system. However, transferring aerocloned, medialess clones into some sort of media can be fraught with danger- unsupported roots will happily break off, with almost no effort on your part! This is why I don't use aerocloners.

    Don't let your roots get more than about 25mm (1") or so long before CAREFULLY planting in a loose-fill medium. The longer they are, the easier they are to break!

    Happy to help. :)

    Thanks for the thanks. Will help when I have time to do so. :)
    Al B. Fuct

    Al B. Fuct once had a dog named

    Wow, a press release from a guy who sells cal-mag, who thinks it's a good idea to buy cal-mag. Sold! (um... not)

    You'll find rumours repeated on several cannabis boards that he has had some historical association with Canna, but this is simply not true. William Van De Zwaan has never been employed by nor associated with Canna, per Canna rep. I strongly suspect that such rumours are part of H&G's marketing strategy.

    inlovewiththc Active Member

    Hey al. Long time reader of your famous SOG grow. U should c the threads ive made trying to get help for this lol. i didnt how to set up a flood table, but with the knowldege i have now i pobly could. but i found dwc would seem to work best for me. Currently trying to set up a blueprint and i herd you were the professional to ask.

    i want to have 4 dwc mothers in a 4x4 tent 400w 18/6 lighting time.

    From there i want to take 32 clones and then transfer 8 each into 10 gallon tote for dwc. Cuttings will go straight to the 8x8 flower tent once they have shown signs of roots

    In my 8x8 tent i want to put 2K W HPS lighting. So eventually in the 8x8 tent il have 128 clones and b harvesting 32 clones every 2 weeks. I want to harvest a pound every 2 weeks woll my setup enable me to do so?

    the strain is Sour Kush (headband) from attitude and i want to use the lucas formula through out the grow
    Al B. Fuct

    Al B. Fuct once had a dog named

    DWC is an advanced technique which I would not recommend for new growers. DWC is highly dependent upon constant air supply. A power or air pump failure lasting more than about 2-3hrs will kill the plant. If you're going to do DWC, you should have redundant air pumps (2 pumps & air stones) per plant and AC power backup, in the form of an uninterruptible power supply (UPS) which has enough battery capacity to run the pumps for a couple of days- we're talking major cash for such a UPS. Changing nute solutions in DWC is much more difficult than in flood systems. The plant has to come out of the DWC container while you dump old solutions, giving a reasonably good opportunity for damage.

    Flood & drain systems are stupidly simple (much simpler than DWC in practise) and are capable of coping with extended power outages or water pump failures which go unnoticed. Pots of absorbent media will keep the plants hydrated for a couple of days in most cases (animation by simplyhydro.com):


    DWC systems do not generally facilitate plant portability within the op- the plant will pretty much have to stay where it is. In a flood system, it's no trouble to move an underperforming plant into a more preferential lighting position.

    Of all the places I would never use DWC, mother plant systems are at the top of the list. If you lose your mother plants, you are (as we say in the biz) fucked. If the only plants in your op that survive a power failure happen to be in flower, you're (so to speak) dead in the water.
    Ditch the DWC idea and go for plants in pots of absorbent media watered by flood trays.

    Sour Kush is a predominantly indica hybrid and should do OK in a SoG op.

    I strongly recommend against use of 'Lucas formula.' Use the nutes per the manufacturer's mixing instructions.

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