It's A Fuct World

painkillerman · Mar 22, 2012

I THOUGHT BOUT AFTER ABLAZED N I THINK SAYING BE THE BEST THING so without delay I QUOTE' Also I seen another guy doing SOG but they make bigger plants maybe about 2 feet start flowering, I was thinking of that and have less plants, have about 4 big plants every 2 weeks in a SOG rotation, at 4oz per plant what you think of that Al?
To get a plant that size requires that it be vegged for a 2-3 weeks. This requires that you maintain a separate vegging area for plants you later intend to flower. It'd have to be about half the size of the flowering room. A vegging period will also induce much taller plants than non-vegged plants by the time they're ready to harvest. Tall plants are not your friend in the flowering room because of the limited canopy penetration of artificial light. Even the mighty 1000HPS will only make nice, dense buds competently down to about 600-700mm down from the plant tips. This limited light penetration is the entire reason for the SoG method. Short plants have all of their flowering mass in the butter zone as regards light intensity. post taken from ur god als reply end QUOTE"
If you want to grow a smaller number of bigger plants, you'll need a vegging space about half the size of your flowering area & you should think about vertical light fixtures interspersed amongst the plants to light them from the side instead of from overhead.
At the end of the day, traditional SoG will yield more per sq ft of lighted floor space than any other method. If you have plant count limitations under law, I can see why you'd not want the numbers required in a SoG op, but if you have the slightest concern about LEO ever counting your plants, your security culture & behaviour need a revisit.

Al B. Fuct · Mar 22, 2012

jasman said:
Hey guys. I'm not so sure if al will actually read this but if he does I want to thank him for the time he has devoted to teaching others he is truly an inspiration.

Thanks.

Now on the off chance that mr fuct has abit spare time I'm gonna ask my questions. I know there are many great minds here so if al doesn't get back I would appreciate any advice from other people doing the same kind of thing. Ok here goes!I plan to have 2 4x6 flood tables with my plants spaced 6x6 in hugo blocks.

What's a hugo block?

I will be running 2 cooltubed 1000w hps above each tray. Probably about 350mm from plant tops. I don't have much vertical limitation. My question is, would it be a good idea to veg my plants for maybe a week or two.

No. The result will be tall plants- and you won't be happy with the results.

I just wrote this in my last reply:

Tall plants are not your friend in the flowering room because of the limited canopy penetration of artificial light. Even the mighty 1000HPS will only make nice, dense buds competently down to about 600-700mm down from the plant tips. This limited light penetration is the entire reason for the SoG method. Short plants have all of their flowering mass in the butter zone as regards light intensity.

If you want to grow a smaller number of bigger plants, you'll need a vegging space about half the size of your flowering area...

And instead of cutting everything from the bottom 1/3 of the plant I plan to just trim it back to encourage bud production close to the stem.

Will result in time-waster buds that will have the effect of hurting the yield in the top cola.

I read the harvest every2 wk thread and loved it and I know al said that by allowing the bottom of the plants to grow will just produce small whispy buds.

Yep, and that's what you'll get.

I'm just thinking with a 1000 dedicated to only 3x4 of canopy space and hung 350ml from canopy that maybe the growth at the bottom of the plant stands a good chance of producing tight bud. I had a picture in my head of a 150cm cola rising from the rockwool is this simply impossible or is it in fact possible with the extra luminous intensity

.

What extra intensity?

I think you're being wishful if you think you're going to get dense buds 1.85m away from the light (1.5m plant + 35cm clearance).

I know lumens don't add up but I thought by halving the amount of plants that each lamp supplies with light would in fact allow each plant to take in more lumens. And also each pair of lights will be colled by an 8" centrif blower so no radiant heat will harm plants at even 300mm from canopy. I just feel that these massive lights will have the ability to penetrate deep down the stems and provide even the very bottom growth with enough light to create solid buds. Sure would b great to get a reply from the main man himself but if not really any help from others would be massively appreciated. Thanks a bunch dudes ! Keep up the good work!

Light intensity reduces as a function of inverse square with distance from the light source. Double the distance, quarter the light intensity. I don't think you're going to get the result you want.

Thanks for the thanks.

I understand perfectly what painkillerman is saying, but a sentence & paragraph break would make him a lot easier to read.

I try not to snipe at writing style too much but if you make yourself hard to read I may not read you.

In our discussions in this thread, I'd appreciate it if we were all somewhat nice to one another, though.

panhead · Mar 22, 2012

RL420 said:
biggest run-on sentence award goes to you my friend.

Please dont antagonize members or resort to name calling,while painkiller's punctuation makes his posts hard to read he has not been deserving of disrespect.

Play nice.

jasman · Mar 22, 2012

Hi al and thanks for getting back to me. A hugo block is a 6x6x6" rockwool block. And thanks for the heads up on the bad idea lol. I'm just going to put them straigh in to flower then, no point in changing something I already know works (really quite well tbh). And if u say the change would be detrimental to the yield. I have similar experience running the same setup with 600s and no veg and got good results. So would u suggest increasing floor space and plant count, and spreading the 1000s out to cover the extra floor space (of course with no veg). Or keeping the same floorspace and plant count and using the 1000s closer to the canopy in order to achieve a better yield per plant? Thanks al much appreciated.

painkillerman · Mar 22, 2012

tops off panhead this is what growing site vibe needs,as i have tons hydro/soilless growing experince but first time helping teach the masses but i know the posts LONG N TECHNICAL but accurate ill try keep post down earth in plain easy read's

RL420 · Mar 22, 2012

panhead said:
Please dont antagonize members or resort to name calling,while painkiller's punctuation makes his posts hard to read he has not been deserving of disrespect.

Play nice.

I dont think i called him any names. Antagonize? I was giving him an award!

painkillerman said:
tops off panhead this is what growing site vibe needs,as i have tons hydro/soilless growing experince but first time helping teach the masses but i know the posts LONG N TECHNICAL but accurate ill try keep post down earth in plain easy read's

Yeah because a grow website should promote the use of grow information that you have to decode just to understand. Gotcha. Peace

jasman · Mar 23, 2012

Does anyone have a link to a good home made batwing for a cooltube. I was sure al had made one but can't find it :s hmmmmm.

painkillerman · Mar 23, 2012

posts will be given as the question is answered (some ppl really know the technial terms as i was chem major and botinany student way back in the day but i dont need any more awards lol so ill keep stuff short sweet and to the point in easy to understand terms But any one wants or craves the teck and leaves no detail to chance please ask me anything(harder the better i need a challenge as of late) ill repond and give facts plus the science y this works/fails so we can all learn togegther PEACE

jasman · Mar 23, 2012

painkillerman said:
posts will be given as the question is answered (some ppl really know the technial terms as i was chem major and botinany student way back in the day but i dont need any more awards lol so ill keep stuff short sweet and to the point in easy to understand terms But any one wants or craves the teck and leaves no detail to chance please ask me anything(harder the better i need a challenge as of late) ill repond and give facts plus the science y this works/fails so we can all learn togegther PEACE

Maybe you can answer this for me painkiller. When using a co2 system, due to the plants extra thirst for nutrients, would it be better to water more frequently or water for a longer period. Or would it be better to up the ppm of the nute solution? I feel as if both the frequency of watering and the ppm could be up'd but wanna know for sure first. Thanks dude

painkillerman · Mar 23, 2012

well first off Thank You also great TRICK QUESTION !!! ive found when running high co2 irun mine at 1100max900min i find that running less but more often is the best plan off attack!!! now the real reason y im sure someone will find this long n techy but VERY useful due to the extra metsblism caused when co2 is ran with opitmal conditions meet the less watering (high flow 396 gph) forces the plant to to adapt less food at one givin time eats more as it it forced to absorb more (due to lower cf will increase the plants metablismeven when not combined with c02 ) more faster too maintain contenst cf consentrations inthe plant tissues the cells rapid divsion osmosic pressure must be mantained (due to rapid gwoth the plant cells osmosic slight pressure change must be maintined thus fastest rates growth so raising the waste by products this waste cause unbalanced ec/ppm slightly but each feeding(also increased co2 demands increased 02 inthe roots zone for fastest metablism rates possible maxamizn CO2 levels as a result)(causing less than optimal growth done if left as as system not running co2 water frequency adjustments thus resulting in more growthin faster in short the faster ur metablism in ur plants just like anyliving thing higher metablism increased water needs due to engery spent thier simple terms if a sprinter was at to eattill he was stuffed and didnt drink more fluids to boost watse removel he woundnt be a sprinter lol if u want to build muscle u eat less more often and drink tons fuilds (due to cell stimuli/metablism/leading to wastes)also keep close eye on h202 adjust as needed ex(40 02 levels are safe adding 100ml 29% makes 2900ml o2 if memory severs H2(2)02(2)-(organic material) catalist-2H2(2)0+02 balanced chemical/chemical reation leading to realease of free02 molcule hope this helps LOL and thanks if i knew how 420 ur rep i would guy !!!!!!!!!hence y h202 needs top up daily but due to unknown varables(level of organics) decay is impossible to predict Tips when in doubt if u should add take any soft centered plant stem and dunk in solution fresh and when in question look at them both times first will bubble a if u put h202 on cut ur hand and check often u will know the perfect time ud be surprized on decay rates cleaner system slower rates 2-3 maxuim i can give u an experiment and actually measure the 02 realeased from given reactionif u know little chemistry/math

Bigz2277 · Mar 23, 2012

painkillerman said:
well first off Thank You also great TRICK QUESTION !!! ive found when running high co2 irun mine at 1100max900min i find that running less but more often is the best plan off attack!!! now the real reason y im sure someone will find this long n techy but VERY useful due to the extra metsblism caused when co2 is ran with opitmal conditions meet the less watering (high flow 396 gph) forces the plant to to adapt less food at one givin time eats more as it it forced to absorb more (due to lower cf will increase the plants metablismeven when not combined with c02 ) more faster too maintain contenst cf consentrations inthe plant tissues the cells rapid divsion osmosic pressure must be mantained (due to rapid gwoth the plant cells osmosic slight pressure change must be maintined thus fastest rates growth so raising the waste by products this waste cause unbalanced ec/ppm slightly but each feeding(also increased co2 demands increased 02 inthe roots zone for fastest metablism rates possible maxamizn CO2 levels as a result)(causing less than optimal growth done if left as as system not running co2 water frequency adjustments thus resulting in more growthin faster in short the faster ur metablism in ur plants just like anyliving thing higher metablism increased water needs due to engery spent thier simple terms if a sprinter was at to eattill he was stuffed and didnt drink more fluids to boost watse removel he woundnt be a sprinter lol if u want to build muscle u eat less more often and drink tons fuilds (due to cell stimuli/metablism/leading to wastes)also keep close eye on h202 adjust as needed ex(40 02 levels are safe adding 100ml 29% makes 2900ml o2 if memory severs H2(2)02(2)-(organic material) catalist-2H2(2)0+02 balanced chemical/chemical reation leading to realease of free02 molcule hope this helps LOL and thanks if i knew how 420 ur rep i would guy !!!!!!!!!hence y h202 needs top up daily but due to unknown varables(level of organics) decay is impossible to predict Tips when in doubt if u should add take any soft centered plant stem and dunk in solution fresh and when in question look at them both times first will bubble a if u put h202 on cut ur hand and check often u will know the perfect time ud be surprized on decay rates cleaner system slower rates 2-3 maxuim i can give u an experiment and actually measure the 02 realeased from given reactionif u know little chemistry/math

.......... paragraphs man... paragraphs. that hurts my eyes to even try to read. when you finish a thought. Hit the enter button to make a space in between.

painkillerman · Mar 23, 2012

I"ll try but, I get in these rants and forget this happens from time to time the next one guy ill increase puncution skills. As i have been away school too long smoke to much but im trying make for smoother read one at a time.

Bigz2277 · Mar 23, 2012

painkillerman said:
I"ll try but, I get in these rants and forget this happens from time to time the next one guy ill increase puncution skills. As i have been away school too long smoke to much but im trying make for smoother read one at a time.

I dont really care about correct grammar and punctuation, just a little space in between your thoughts helps the reader. Look at how Al posts its all broken up to who he is addressing. just trying to save you some future wars with people over something so simple. cheers ^_^

painkillerman · Mar 23, 2012

very true thanks Bigz

Al B. Fuct · Mar 25, 2012

jasman said:
Hi al and thanks for getting back to me. A hugo block is a 6x6x6" rockwool block. And thanks for the heads up on the bad idea lol. I'm just going to put them straigh in to flower then, no point in changing something I already know works (really quite well tbh). And if u say the change would be detrimental to the yield. I have similar experience running the same setup with 600s and no veg and got good results. So would u suggest increasing floor space and plant count, and spreading the 1000s out to cover the extra floor space (of course with no veg). Or keeping the same floorspace and plant count and using the 1000s closer to the canopy in order to achieve a better yield per plant? Thanks al much appreciated.

I'd be inclined to keep the floorspace the same & put the 1000s a bit lower. You'll get denser buds that weigh more- and the adoration of all who smoke them.

RL420 said:
I dont think i called him any names. Antagonize? I was giving him an award!

Cut the passive-aggressive bullshit. You & kbo_ca can be nice or be gone.

jasman said:
Does anyone have a link to a good home made batwing for a cooltube. I was sure al had made one but can't find it :s hmmmmm.

Nope, I've always used the commercially made Adjust-A-Wings. You can make your own, not that hard, just some sheets of polished aluminum. The AAWs have a dimpled finish which spreads light very well, though. Worth the money.

Bigz2277 said:
I dont really care about correct grammar and punctuation, just a little space in between your thoughts helps the reader. Look at how Al posts its all broken up to who he is addressing. just trying to save you some future wars with people over something so simple. cheers ^_^

Yes, paragraph breaks are much appreciated. I don't expect everyone to reply with quote and splice in comments as I do, but it really helps readers sort out what's being discussed.

firsttimeARE · Mar 25, 2012

jasman said:
Does anyone have a link to a good home made batwing for a cooltube. I was sure al had made one but can't find it :s hmmmmm.

I thought he made one too and discussed it in Al B Faqt thread back in like 08' but I think it was VV who made one and was talking about it on the thread, I do remember a post by Al showing a section view of the radius and lengths to use for the metal something like 300mm wings with a 60mm or something depression for the parabola. Something like that haha, been months since I finished that thread.

But I found this for you Jasmin: https://www.rollitup.org/do-yourself/109209-diy-batwing-reflector-cool-tube.html

jasman · Mar 25, 2012

painkillerman said:
well first off Thank You also great TRICK QUESTION !!! ive found when running high co2 irun mine at 1100max900min i find that running less but more often is the best plan off attack!!! now the real reason y im sure someone will find this long n techy but VERY useful due to the extra metsblism caused when co2 is ran with opitmal conditions meet the less watering (high flow 396 gph) forces the plant to to adapt less food at one givin time eats more as it it forced to absorb more (due to lower cf will increase the plants metablismeven when not combined with c02 ) more faster too maintain contenst cf consentrations inthe plant tissues the cells rapid divsion osmosic pressure must be mantained (due to rapid gwoth the plant cells osmosic slight pressure change must be maintined thus fastest rates growth so raising the waste by products this waste cause unbalanced ec/ppm slightly but each feeding(also increased co2 demands increased 02 inthe roots zone for fastest metablism rates possible maxamizn CO2 levels as a result)(causing less than optimal growth done if left as as system not running co2 water frequency adjustments thus resulting in more growthin faster in short the faster ur metablism in ur plants just like anyliving thing higher metablism increased water needs due to engery spent thier simple terms if a sprinter was at to eattill he was stuffed and didnt drink more fluids to boost watse removel he woundnt be a sprinter lol if u want to build muscle u eat less more often and drink tons fuilds (due to cell stimuli/metablism/leading to wastes)also keep close eye on h202 adjust as needed ex(40 02 levels are safe adding 100ml 29% makes 2900ml o2 if memory severs H2(2)02(2)-(organic material) catalist-2H2(2)0+02 balanced chemical/chemical reation leading to realease of free02 molcule hope this helps LOL and thanks if i knew how 420 ur rep i would guy !!!!!!!!!hence y h202 needs top up daily but due to unknown varables(level of organics) decay is impossible to predict Tips when in doubt if u should add take any soft centered plant stem and dunk in solution fresh and when in question look at them both times first will bubble a if u put h202 on cut ur hand and check often u will know the perfect time ud be surprized on decay rates cleaner system slower rates 2-3 maxuim i can give u an experiment and actually measure the 02 realeased from given reactionif u know little chemistry/math

WOW that is super technical. I suppose that's due to your expansive experience in such fields. I'm not sure I got it all. Let me know if this is along the right lines.Instead of flooding once a day flood twice a day but 2/3 of the volume so over the 2 waterings your increasing flood volume by 1/3.More o2 to the roots is needed so I should top up H2O2 daily. However decay of H2O2 is hard to calculate so to test I should dip the stem of any soft stemmed plant in the solution to see if it bubbles it means there is not enough H2O2 in the solution beacuse osmosis is forcing the o2 out of the plant tissue. Could I just use the trimmings I take from my plants to test this? Thanks painkiller. I can just imagine a lab full of white coats standing round talking the way you write haha classic!

jasman · Mar 25, 2012

"I'd be inclined to keep the floorspace the same & put the 1000s a bit lower. You'll get denser buds that weigh more- and the adoration of all who smoke them."Originally posted by AL B FUCT. Haha like what I did there? I'm on my tablet and it don't let me multi quote and it was eitha do it myself or quote that whole reply.I never mentioned I have 8 3x6 tables from a friend that got busted and quit (actually a lot of my stuff came from this friend). So it would be possible to do pretty much as you have in terms of wpsf with each 1000 over a 3x6 area. That is correct isn't it? A pair of your tables is about 3x6?. In the op now my plant count is 192. If I switched the 2 4x6s to 4 3x6s I would have a plant count of 284 do you think my yield would be better even growing almost 100 extra plants. When using the 4x6s and 2 600s over each table I have been achieving about around 20g per plant however I had a freak plant yield 30 g on my first run :s which was nice. "Nope, I've always used the commercially made Adjust-A-Wings. You can make your own, not that hard, just some sheets of polished aluminum. The AAWs have a dimpled finish which spreads light very well, though. Worth the money." You know who said it haha.if I were to go the none DIY route would you suggest putting panda film on these? It probs sounds stupid but I looked at a tutorial for making one and they put panda film on the reflecting side of the wing. Is this just for home made ones ? I'd never heard of it and don't think you do this but I might aswell ask while your answering. Thanks for the info al there's nothing quite better than learning from the best!

jasman · Mar 25, 2012

firsttimeARE said:
I thought he made one too and discussed it in Al B Faqt thread back in like 08' but I think it was VV who made one and was talking about it on the thread, I do remember a post by Al showing a section view of the radius and lengths to use for the metal something like 300mm wings with a 60mm or something depression for the parabola. Something like that haha, been months since I finished that thread.But I found this for you Jasmin: https://www.rollitup.org/do-yourself/109209-diy-batwing-reflector-cool-tube.html

Dude thanks for that. Seems fairly simple. Cheers!

painkillerman · Mar 25, 2012

ya once day is just not gonna cut this kinda room . id say running 6/12 dat/night cycle (best yeild 40%less power usage too not drop in yields at all )but thats not this topic ,,
2 3in cycles= 3 2min cycles same daily volume more often feedings
yes top up h202 daily use 25% decay n up from there
no,the plant is being decayed this is the bubbles h202 comined with organic matter decays and 02 is realeased ,but is nothing osmosic bout this reaction(i use soft center stem ex because its just that wetn soft i find itd easyier to tell if u used this method again this was only example
just add h202 at ur rate based on ur findings but up to 2-3ml if uped slowly is awesome growth cominbine 6/12 the only problem ull have is finding jars to cure it all
thanks i try ps keep em coming

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