imho hydro sucks

3rd Monkey

3rd Monkey

Well-Known Member
Dr. Who said:
And yet the difference in final results is organic does more for the plant as a whole..... Your product even stores longer then non-organically grown product....
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I disagree with your use of organic when referring to nutrients. They are all organic. Man didn't start creating molecules to grow plants with, just figured out chelation.

What you are referring to specifically, is organic microbes... those are directly responsible for your differences between "salt" fertilizer and "organic" fertilizer. Most folks that run "salt" fertilizer don't run microbes... plain and simple. Try it sometime. I always use microbes, so medium doesn't matter... except when it comes to growth, but you know which takes the cake there lol.
 
A

Aqua Man

Well-Known Member
3rd Monkey said:
Most store bought nutrients contain a very small amount of sodium. Coincidentally, some plants need to uptake sodium. Many fruits and vegetables contain sodium... it's required for them for sustainability. Where does that sodium come from?

Decaying organic matter contains sodium, plain and simple. The salt your referring to is NaCl, sodium chloride... table salt. Sodium itself is necessary for most living things to uptake.

Nutrients don't contain table salt... at least none I've encountered. Science refers to a salt as 2 ions that bond and form a crystalline structure... not always table salt.
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Ok I can agree on that. But sodium is used in absolutely tiny amounts by plants.

I'm no expert but do have a decent grasp on nutrients so would you say the use or organic and synthetic fertilizer will have no difference in terms of salt build up in soils?

I find that so hard to wrap my head around. I'm talking sodium in general not just sodium chloride I was using that just as an example. Sodium bicarbonate, sodium chloride, sodium sulfate, sodium hydroxide etc. etc. etc.

I'm probably using the term salt wrong when I should be using the term sodium or salinity.

Does this not effect the plants ability to uptake water and nutrients with increased amounts?

Do synthetic nutrients not contains higher amounts?
 
3rd Monkey

3rd Monkey

Well-Known Member
Aqua Man said:
Ok I can agree on that. But sodium is used in absolutely tiny amounts by plants.

I'm no expert but do have a decent grasp on nutrients so would you say the use or organic and synthetic fertilizer will have no difference in terms of salt build up in soils?

I find that so hard to wrap my head around. I'm talking sodium in general not just sodium chloride I was using that just as an example. Sodium bicarbonate, sodium chloride, sodium sulfate, sodium hydroxide etc. etc. etc.

I'm probably using the term salt wrong when I should be using the term sodium or salinity.

Does this not effect the plants ability to uptake water and nutrients with increased amounts?

Do synthetic nutrients not contains higher amounts?
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Ok, flushing. We're all familiar with the term. Salt buildup from not flushing... we've all heard of it.

It's actually not a salt buildup at all. The reason behind a "salt buildup" is that the root system, or even soil surrounding, is flooded with ready to use ions. The problem here, is that the plant needs a steady concentration of water to swap out H ions for uptake.

The valence of many nutrient ions does not allow this due to their charge, the charge of the medium, and the ph of the water. So, there's not really a salt buildup, but a buildup of ions that won't allow uptake.... like a garden hose that's packed full of debris.

It is just as possible to do this with "organic". Ever burned a plant with organic?

"Synthetic" doesn't necessarily contain more nutrition or salt, just readily available nutrition. Take coco for eaxample. It will hold salt, NaCl, very well because of its CEC and the valence of NaCl. That doesn't mean that nutrients contain more, just that it bonds easier than most nutrient molecules because of that valence and CEC.
 
A

Aqua Man

Well-Known Member
3rd Monkey said:
Ok, flushing. We're all familiar with the term. Salt buildup from not flushing... we've all heard of it.

It's actually not a salt buildup at all. The reason behind a "salt buildup" is that the root system, or even soil surrounding, is flooded with ready to use ions. The problem here, is that the plant needs a steady concentration of water to swap out H ions for uptake.

The valence of many nutrient ions does not allow this due to their charge, the charge of the medium, and the ph of the water. So, there's not really a salt buildup, but a buildup of ions that won't allow uptake.... like a garden hose that's packed full of debris.

It is just as possible to do this with "organic". Ever burned a plant with organic?

"Synthetic" doesn't necessarily contain more nutrition or salt, just readily available nutrition. Take coco for eaxample. It will hold salt, NaCl, very well because of its CEC and the valence of NaCl. That doesn't mean that nutrients contain more, just that it bonds easier than most nutrient molecules because of that valence and CEC.
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Ok good info. So it stands to reason that synthetic nutrients are a lot more likely to cause this than organic correct?
 
3rd Monkey

3rd Monkey

Well-Known Member
Aqua Man said:
Ok good info. So it stands to reason that synthetic nutrients are a lot more likely to cause this than organic correct?
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Cause what?

The only difference between "synthetic" and "organic" is the chelation methods, which is where the synthetic terminology is derived from, and arguably the "poisonous" side of "synthetic" nutes.

An overuse or abuse of either will produce the same effect, with the exception that the synthetic chelation will carry waste other than nutrients into runoff. It is much easier to leach out "synthetic" since it is already chelated, as opposed to "organic" though, which takes much longer to flush/leach out if overused.

Pros and cons to both.
 
bdt1981

bdt1981

Well-Known Member
This thread was started to bash growing hydroponically not to compare salt build up and difference between synthetic and organic nutrient and which is better for the enviroment.
Mainly to compare the 2 and the work put forth. Problems thst arise. Unfourtunatly i had a partner that couldnt leave anything alone when i think like if its not broke dont fix it. That is where most of my issues with hydro were born. Once i was on my own things changed drastically.
For example i set an aeroflo in a friends closet and all he had to do was give me the readings on the trimeter then late in flower add 5 al of water. I didnt have to babysit or count on him to do much. Maybe a squirt of down at first til i removed the airstones from my res then ph hardly moved.
If it were soil i would have to worry about him overwatering. Thats about all i guess as long as i mixed a big batch of nutes.
As for ions and salts and chelating... I dont know a lot about that stuff. I know how to follow directions and i know what each thing does to a point and why you have to use it. All the scientific stuff dosent really help you grow. Like what this or that does and all that. Controlling your enviroment with touch of a button precision and adding a bit of co2 and air circulation along with the right feeding schedule is what grows plants.
 
bdt1981

bdt1981

Well-Known Member
But im learning some interestingly useless information about ions and such reading what u guys are talking about. Lol
 
A

Aqua Man

Well-Known Member
3rd Monkey said:
Cause what?

The only difference between "synthetic" and "organic" is the chelation methods, which is where the synthetic terminology is derived from, and arguably the "poisonous" side of "synthetic" nutes.

An overuse or abuse of either will produce the same effect, with the exception that the synthetic chelation will carry waste other than nutrients into runoff. It is much easier to leach out "synthetic" since it is already chelated, as opposed to "organic" though, which takes much longer to flush/leach out if overused.

Pros and cons to both.
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Much easier to lockout plants with synthetic though no? Because of the availability the buildup of ions occurs quickly. Due to organic breaking these down at a slower rate and more even availability over time.
 
3rd Monkey

3rd Monkey

Well-Known Member
bdt1981 said:
This thread was started to bash growing hydroponically not to compare salt build up and difference between synthetic and organic nutrient and which is better for the enviroment.
Mainly to compare the 2 and the work put forth. Problems thst arise. Unfourtunatly i had a partner that couldnt leave anything alone when i think like if its not broke dont fix it. That is where most of my issues with hydro were born. Once i was on my own things changed drastically.
For example i set an aeroflo in a friends closet and all he had to do was give me the readings on the trimeter then late in flower add 5 al of water. I didnt have to babysit or count on him to do much. Maybe a squirt of down at first til i removed the airstones from my res then ph hardly moved.
If it were soil i would have to worry about him overwatering. Thats about all i guess as long as i mixed a big batch of nutes.
As for ions and salts and chelating... I dont know a lot about that stuff. I know how to follow directions and i know what each thing does to a point and why you have to use it. All the scientific stuff dosent really help you grow. Like what this or that does and all that. Controlling your enviroment with touch of a button precision and adding a bit of co2 and air circulation along with the right feeding schedule is what grows plants.
Click to expand...
Dude, science made your nutes and told you how to tailor your environment, told you about CO2, etc.

So... pound sand?? Lol.
 
3rd Monkey

3rd Monkey

Well-Known Member
Aqua Man said:
Much easier to lockout plants with synthetic though no? Because of the availability the buildup of ions occurs quickly. Due to organic breaking these down at a slower rate and more even availability over time.
Click to expand...
To a degree. Organic does contain some readily available nutrients that are already broken down, so it's still easy to overdo organic as well.

If you add too many organic components or too much, you can add too many readily available nutrients and cause the same type of lockout... also to a degree.

Organic chelation is much more efficient and effective than synthetic, so while it's a rapid onset, it tapers off until material breaks down. That's why there's a need to "cook" an organic mix.
 
bdt1981

bdt1981

Well-Known Member
3rd Monkey said:
Dude, science made your nutes and told you how to tailor your environment, told you about CO2, etc.

So... pound sand?? Lol.
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Sure but best to keep it simple. I jusn never had time for all the real in depth stuff. Its not nesassary to have all that knowledge to grow. Knowing all that dont increase yield so i never focused on it much. I focused on the important stuff and how to get better and more product.
 
3rd Monkey

3rd Monkey

Well-Known Member
bdt1981 said:
Sure but best to keep it simple. I jusn never had time for all the real in depth stuff. Its not nesassary to have all that knowledge to grow. Knowing all that dont increase yield so i never focused on it much. I focused on the important stuff and how to get better and more product.
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How do you know it doesn't increase yield if you don't know the information? That doesn't even make sense lol.

It's not for everybody, sure. Nobody is forcing anyone to read anything or enlighten themselves... but some just enjoy knowing more than seed, soil, water.
 
xtsho

xtsho

Well-Known Member
3rd Monkey said:
Ok, flushing. We're all familiar with the term. Salt buildup from not flushing... we've all heard of it.

It's actually not a salt buildup at all. The reason behind a "salt buildup" is that the root system, or even soil surrounding, is flooded with ready to use ions. The problem here, is that the plant needs a steady concentration of water to swap out H ions for uptake.

The valence of many nutrient ions does not allow this due to their charge, the charge of the medium, and the ph of the water. So, there's not really a salt buildup, but a buildup of ions that won't allow uptake.... like a garden hose that's packed full of debris.

It is just as possible to do this with "organic". Ever burned a plant with organic?

"Synthetic" doesn't necessarily contain more nutrition or salt, just readily available nutrition. Take coco for eaxample. It will hold salt, NaCl, very well because of its CEC and the valence of NaCl. That doesn't mean that nutrients contain more, just that it bonds easier than most nutrient molecules because of that valence and CEC.
Click to expand...
Salt buildup has to do with overfeeding. I use blumats in 100% coco. There is no runoff, I never flush, and I never get nutrient lockouts, deficiencies, or have any of the problems so many seem to have. I also never use calmag despite so many people saying that it's a requirement in coco or traditional hydro. But I don't overfeed or dump a bunch of unnecessary additives on my plants.

The last time I burnt my plants was when I did an organic grow. So I have burned plants with organics. I've since gone back to my three boxes of chemical salts and everything has been doing great.

My signature says it all.
 
3rd Monkey

3rd Monkey

Well-Known Member
xtsho said:
Salt buildup has to do with overfeeding. I use blumats in 100% coco. There is no runoff, I never flush, and I never get nutrient lockouts, deficiencies, or have any of the problems so many seem to have. I also never use calmag despite so many people saying that it's a requirement in coco or traditional hydro. But I don't overfeed or dump a bunch of unnecessary additives on my plants.

The last time I burnt my plants was when I did an organic grow. So I have burned plants with organics. I've since gone back to my three boxes of chemical salts and everything has been doing great.

My signature says it all.
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Most of what we are talking about now is in correlation with overfertilization and it's effects.

You are absolutely right. You don't need the extra calmag because you aren't washing it out with higher nutrient concentrations.
 
A

Aqua Man

Well-Known Member
bdt1981 said:
Sure but best to keep it simple. I jusn never had time for all the real in depth stuff. Its not nesassary to have all that knowledge to grow. Knowing all that dont increase yield so i never focused on it much. I focused on the important stuff and how to get better and more product.
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If it works great. But let's be honest advancements are not made keeping things simple. Understanding processes aids in everything there is about growing or anything for that matter. Simple can work no doubt but if we just kept everything simple hydro wouldn't even exist.
 
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rshackleferd

rshackleferd

Well-Known Member
In my opinion if you want an easy to grow method with great results go with coco coir and organic nutes such as Dr. Earth or Gia green. For more info check out "Mr. Canucks grow" on youtube. With this method you dont have to worry about much of anything, pretty much on autopilot.


Too many cons with soil,

1. If your ph is off good luck fixing it with multiple flushes
2. It takes energy for a plant to push roots through soil
3. Over watering can destroy or hinder your plants growth
4. Soil can contain many diseases and pest such as fungus and fungus gnats
5. Lower yields compared with hydro and coco, see number 2
6. Hard to gauge or be precise with nutrients and ph
7. Roots need oxygen, Soil contains less oxygen than coir or hydro.
8. Once soil is used up thats all she wrote unlike coir bongsmilie
 
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Aussieaceae

Aussieaceae

Well-Known Member
3rd Monkey said:
Most store bought nutrients contain a very small amount of sodium. Coincidentally, some plants need to uptake sodium. Many fruits and vegetables contain sodium... it's required for them for sustainability. Where does that sodium come from?

Decaying organic matter contains sodium, plain and simple. The salt your referring to is NaCl, sodium chloride... table salt. Sodium itself is necessary for most living things to uptake.

Nutrients don't contain table salt... at least none I've encountered. Science refers to a salt as 2 ions that bond and form a crystalline structure... not always table salt.
Click to expand...
While I agree to an extent, sodium isn't in nearly the same amounts from organic matter.

Theoretically what grazers and predatory animals are eating isn't very high in sodium at all. Any extra "sodium" in their diet is added by man.

YES, depending on your local geology, your soil can be high in sodium. Front and second line salt, even salt deposits in the earth. Western Australia is one example. The Sydney basin too. Lots of salty soil.

Dispersive soil in general, isn't very ideal at all.

To further argue the point, most ways the resources for ANY fert are sourced is shady. The home grower can absolutely be more environmentally friendly than modern farming. Permaculture is a perfect example. People get by with nothing but a bunch of chickens and compost heaps. That's a fact of life.

:peace:
 
JSB99

JSB99

Well-Known Member
Dr. Who said:
I used to do DWC.
I do have to agree that DWC and better yet, RDWC really works great.....RDWC, you use less nutrient to get great results....

Still, how often do you have to adjust your res pH?
Add backs
Res temp control
How much vacation time have you had last year?

It's an interesting view from either direction. We each have our druthers..... I guess for me. Playing in the dirt started young on the farm. I just have that basic love of all things in the ground.
Still, that increased terp profile and the nice tweeks that soil spin into the finished product.....

Just like @Aussieaceae says above....
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I usually have around 55-gallons in my RDWC. I never flush (unless there's an issue), my pH is always stab!e, water temps stay at/below 68, with no chiller or special cooling, and I took a long vacation at Christmas.

Granted, it didn't just happen that way. A lot went into the planning of my grow room, and I've got some experience. I know how much pH Up I need to add, for the amount of nutes I add, the amount of water I have helps with the stable pH and temps, and I don't tend to feed to the point of burn.

The amount I grow is enough to last through two harvests, so if I have a crop failure, or want to take a vacation, like you mentioned, I'm able to. Like I said, lots of planning went into the room :)

I started off with hydro, and actually had difficulty when I first started growing in soil. Hydro just made sense to me, probably because I'm highly technical.
 
3rd Monkey

3rd Monkey

Well-Known Member
Aussieaceae said:
While I agree to an extent, sodium isn't in nearly the same amounts from organic matter.

Theoretically what grazers and predatory animals are eating isn't very high in sodium at all. Any extra "sodium" in their diet is added by man.

YES, depending on your local geology, your soil can be high in sodium. Front and second line salt, even salt deposits in the earth. Western Australia is one example. The Sydney basin too. Lots of salty soil.

Dispersive soil in general, isn't very ideal at all.

To further argue the point, most ways the resources for ANY fert is shady. The home grower can absolutely be more environmentally friendly than modern farming. Permaculture is a perfect example. People get by with nothing but a bunch of chickens and compost heaps. That's a fact of life.

:peace:
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I don't disagree.

However, like you just said, the home grower can be more environmentally friendly, by not overusing or abusing either line of nutrition and ceasing any negative effects that would have occurred.

If you could make people stop destroying the planet, this organic vs synthetic chat we are having... wouldn't exist.

To sum this all up from my standpoint, neither is more detrimental. Wells have been manure poisoned, ponds have been leached with edta, and oceans contaminated with oil. Nothing changes and it hurts my heart.

That said, anybody with a high school chemistry education can reckognize that an ion is an ion, synthetic chelating agents are man made and leach out dragging whatever it bonds to with it, and overfertilizing is bad no matter the fertilizer. Is there a debate to be had... not about nutrients. Chelating agents... absolutely.
 
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