If Amber Trichomes are a sign of the cannabinoids degrading

A

amsterdam2015

Well-Known Member
Then why does this not happen with all strains?

If the chemical compounds are the same in every plant, just in different ratios, surely given a certain amount of time each and every strain will turn amber, and this does not happen with all strains.

Also, how can it be said that amber represents a loss of 90% potency - in the way of THC, when I have sampled time and time again, 100% amber trichome covered flowers that got me incredibly high, not just couch locked.

I have seen that someone sampled THC inside of a clear trichome head and cloudy one and the clear has a higher amount of THC, would it be safe to assume that this is a poor way to determine active chemicals?

I do not think the clear heads would have a higher amount of psychoactive chemicals, maybe just a higher amount of testable precursors? Which then leads people to thinking that the best time to harvest is earlier in the window, for maximum "high"

A hate seeing all the talk about how amber is a negative degradation only, with nothing to back up that claim.

Do we know when all the terpenes develop? I know during drying and curing they polymerise to form different compounds (which is why the smell changes) but I dont know when these are produced en masse.

When is the precursor to the terpenes created, is it late in the flowering, or right at the start? Are terpenes always more pronounced on strains left to ripen fully?

Could an abundance of terpenes be responsible for the colour change inside of a trichome, as apposed to it simply being THC > CBN degradation (which I do not believe at all)

Why do tests done on strains with 50% amber trichomes still only show negligible amounts of CBN? If this was THC degrading it should be substantially higher, or at least increase at a relative rate to the THC being destroyed, which in all tests I have seen it does not.

I am convinced amber trichomes are not degraded THC.

All this before 9am!

:)
 
idoitmovin

idoitmovin

Member
i've had some extremely potent stuff that was just some little dead popcorn nugs hangin off the dead plant, i sampled her throughout the final weeks of flushing and throughout drying and curing to assess her strength. was mighty tasty as i recall.....og kush.bongsmilie ......but amsterdam has done a good share of critical thinking, hella props! I'm on board. i like my fruit ripe, why can't our meds be the same way:joint:
 
colonuggs

colonuggs

Well-Known Member
When to harvest your trichomes
There are several schools of thought as to when it is the time to harvest. I shall attempt to explain how you can determine the harvesting time that will produce the most favorable psychoactive effect for your individual preferences.

We are most concerned with the capitate-stalked trichomes, as these contain the overwhelming majority of the psychoactive cannabinoids (THC, THCV, CBN). Different cannabinoids affect the high in a multifaceted manner.


THC:
delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol & delta-8-tetrahydrocannabinol - THC mimics the action of anandamide, a neurotransmitter produced naturally in the body, which binds with the cannabinoid receptors in the brain to produce the ‘high’ associated with marijuana. THC possesses high UV-B (280-315 nm) absorption properties.

THCV:
tetrahydrocannabivarin - prevalent in certain South African and Southeast Asian strains of cannabis. It is said to produce a ‘clearer high’ & seems to possess many of the therapeutic properties of THC.

CBD:
cannabidiol - previously believed to be psychoactive, or to contribute to the high by interacting with other cannabinoids, conversely the most recent research indicates that CBD has negligible effect on the high, it is however a strong anti-inflammatory, and may take the edge off some THC effects, such as anxiety. CBD as a non-psychoactive cannabinoid appears to be helpful for many medical conditions. CBD biosynthesizes into cannabinol (CBN) & tetrahydrocannabinol (THC).

CBN:
cannabinol - a degradation product of THC, produces a depressant effect, ‘fuzzy’ forehead.

CBC:
cannabichromene - non-psychoactive , a precursor to THC.

CBG:
cannabigerol - non-psychoactive, hemp strains often posses elevated levels of CBG while possessing only trace amounts of THC.

Heavy trichome production is not necessarily an indication of a potent plant. Some hemp strains have moderate layers of trichomes yet pack only a strong headache. In a drug strain, a thick layer of trichomes is a symbol that it may well posses an elevated potency level, but it is certainly not a guarantee.

What defines a cannabis drug strain is the plant's ability to produce THC & THCV.

A small 25x or stronger pocket microscope, which can be picked up inexpensively at an electronics store like Radio Shack, works well for getting a closer peek at your trichome development. We are examining are the capitate stalked glandular trichomes, the coloration of these gland heads can vary between strains and maturity. Most strains start with clear or slightly amber heads which gradually become cloudy or opaque when THC levels have peaked and are beginning to degrade. Regardless of the initial color of the secretory cavity, with careful observation you should be able to see a change in coloration as maturity levels off.

Some cultivators wait for about half of the secretory cavities to go opaque before harvesting, to ensure maximum THC levels in the finished product. Of course nothing tells the truth more than your own perception, so try samples at various stages to see what is best for you & the phenotype your are growing. While you may be increasing the total THC level in the bud by allowing half of the glands to go opaque, the bud will also have a larger percentage of THC breakdown products such as CBN, which is why some people choose to harvest earlier while most of the secretory cavities are still clear.

Indica varieties will usually have a 10-15 day harvest window to work with. Sativas and Indica/Sativa hybrids often have an extended period to work with.

Although cannabis resin glands called trichomes are structurally diverse, they come in three basic varieties:


Bulbous:
The bulbous type is the smallest (15-30 micron). From one to four cells make up the "foot" and "stalk," and one to four cells make up the "head" of the gland. Head cells secrete a resin - presumably cannabinoids, and related compounds which accumulate between the head cells and the cuticle. When the gland matures, a nipple-like protrusion may form on the membrane from the pressure of the accumulating resin. The bulbous glands are found scattered about the surfaces of the above-ground plant parts.

Capitate-Sessile:
The second type of gland is much larger & is more numerous than the bulbous glands. They are called capitate, which means having a globular-shaped head. On immature plants, the heads lie flush, appearing not to have a stalk and are called capitate sessile. They actually have a stalk that is one cell high, although it may not be visible beneath the globular head. The head is composed of usually eight, but up to 16 cells, that form a convex rosette. These cells secrete cannabinoids, and related compounds which accumulate between the rosette and it's outer membrane. This gives it a spherical shape. The gland measures from 25 to 100 micron across.

Capitate-Stalked:
Cannabinoids are most abundant in the capitate-stalked gland which consists of a tier of secretory disc cells subtending a large non-cellular secretory cavity. During flowering the capitate glands that appear on the newly formed plant parts take on a third form. Some of the glands are raised to a height of 150 to 500 micron when their stalks elongate. These capitate-stalked glands appear during flowering and form their densest cover on the female flower bracts. They are also highly concentrated on the small leaves that accompany the flowers. The male flowers have stalked glands on the sepals, but they are smaller and less concentrated than on the female bracts. Male flowers form a row of very large capitate glands along the opposite sides of anthers.




Disc cells, attached to leaf or bract by stipe cells (RED) & basal cells (GREEN), release fibrillar wall matrix into secretory cavity where it contributes to thickening of subcuticular wall during enlargement of secretory cavity. Plastids (ORANGE) in disc cells produce secretions called lipoplasts which synthesize quantities of lipophilic substances that accumulate outside the plasma membrane, migrating into the endoplasmic reticular cytoplasm and through the plasma membrane and cell wall into the secretory cavity where they form vesicles (BLUE) in the secretory cavity. Vesicles in contact with the subcuticular wall release contents that contribute to the growth of the cuticle during the enlargement of the secretory cavity. THC occurs in the walls, fibrillar matrix & other contents surrounding the vesicles, but not in the vesicles. Trace amounts of THC is present in the disc cells
Click to expand...
 
A

amsterdam2015

Well-Known Member
"CBD biosynthesizes into cannabinol (CBN) & tetrahydrocannabinol (THC). "

According to that, CBD is itself a precursor to THC...

Would this not meant that plants with higher CBD could potentially, if left longer, lose that CBD, while it changed into THC and CBN?


I always thought there was a relationship between CBD and THC, one goes up, the other comes down, yet new strains with high levels of both are now being produced, which debunks that; so I do not believe what is written above about the synthesis of chemicals, they seem to contradict themselves.

No mention of when terpenes are developed, or what role they play in the high. What signifies high levels of CBD in a strain? Can it be looked for? People suggest opaque is a sign of THC filled glands, well what happens when CBD is produced in the glands too, is there not another physical change? (amber perhaps?)

How can a product with 100% amber trichomes (90% loss of potency apparently) still really send you for a ride if amber really is just degraded THC?

And why are ALL flowers with any significant amount of clear trichomes a weaker shorter lasting high, if this is in fact the peak production time?

From everything I see and read, I reckong 90-95% of people harvest early without having tried a fully ripe bud, therefore have nothing but street weed to compare it to, and assume it is as good as can be.

If you want a heart racing, mind thumping, freak yourself out sativa, dont get a heavy couch lock indica, and try and harvest it on day 40 because "all the heads are clear" and this will produce a clear cerebral high... bollocks, it will produce 1/10th of a couch lock high, which feels moderately like a mild head buzz.

Would like more thought and discussion on harvest, from people who experience different levels for themselves.
 
Samwell Seed Well

Samwell Seed Well

Well-Known Member
short answer , it happens to all strains if you run them through their correct flowering cycles, and amber trichs is also a sign of loss of water in the heads and stalks . . . . its a maturing thing not degradation thing,the thc actually converts to other cannabanoids
 
A

amsterdam2015

Well-Known Member
Herb Man said:
What are they?
Click to expand...
Full of THC and now contains other chemicals too?


Lab tests have shown similar levels of THC in plants with a larger number of amber trichomes, as with opaque, but a lower number of total activated cannabinoids.

Do not believe amber = degraded THC.
 
A

amsterdam2015

Well-Known Member
Samwell Seed Well said:
short answer , it happens to all strains if you run them through their correct flowering cycles, and amber trichs is also a sign of loss of water in the heads and stalks . . . . its a maturing thing not degradation thing,the thc actually converts to other cannabanoids
Click to expand...

Ah, never thought about water being removed.. This would also cause quite a different appearance
 
A

amsterdam2015

Well-Known Member
When the water is lost inside the trichome, does decarboxylation take place, like when THC is becoming active?

If so, would is be safe to assume that amber trichomes are more potent in active chemicals, right from the get go - even prior to drying?
 
K

kermit2692

Well-Known Member
...it DOES happen to all strains lol :bigjoint: .... your asking too much as far as terpenes this information is just being unraveled. genetics come first before manipulation so if a plant is genetically going to produce high levels of both you can only affect that so much likewise if a plant will produce low levels of cbd you will still only be able to affect that minutely by changing the harvest date...bottom line is every plant should be harvested at peak and people shouldnt be playing around with that to try and change the thc profile of the genetics because thats like me picking a grape early, ya ill get a sour grape which i like but it will be rubbery, i should have just found a variety of grapes that comes out sour at the proper harvest time! i dont think an amber color or hue on dried buds is evidence of a late harvest as ive harvested cloudy and had my buds turn amber during cure. however i do think that a plant grown until they turn amber and then harvested has degraded much more than the amber plant that turned amber after harvest..so basically i think you can have an amber looking bud blow you away and then have an amber bud someone over ripened that just doesnt really get you there...just philosophical opinion from my exp not saying their is any evidence of this at all.....smartest way to answer your questions is to think to yourself why in nature as the plant is dying and starting to deal with frost, would it be beneficial for their to be a chemical change in the trichs. i come up with nothing when asking this since bean production has ceased and it cant be a deterent as it would be good for animals to eat the vegetation now and spread the beans, only thing i come up with is the trichs are "dying" like the rest of the plant.
 
A

amsterdam2015

Well-Known Member
Interesting points there, would like to understand if there is an actual difference between amber on living plant to amber from the drying/curing process.

You saying that cloudy trichomes that turn amber after drying would give it the appearance of a plant grown for a longer time, without the actual properties of one?

Wonder if you simply exposed your buds to more air/light during drying and curing, you could get more amber trichomes?

I think having the trichome "die" as you say, while still on the plant is beneficial.

Agree fully about picking the right traits, and not being able to change much about the high. IMO you only reduce effects in the majority of cases.

I can see the merit in letting a sativa develop into a more rounded smoke, but I cannot see the idea behind taking an indica early to get a sativa head rush, it will simply be a weak indica.
 
A

amsterdam2015

Well-Known Member
Cant wait till the testing equipment is affordable, and I can simply see the exact levels of all cannabinoids, terpenes, mold, nutrients, etc.

No more guesswork, and we can start to examine in more detail the effects of certain chemicals on the cannabinoids at different times.

Maybe 10-15 years?
 
K

kermit2692

Well-Known Member
i agree that would be nice. pot makes me high, most pot is decent and although their is variation in the main cannabinoids levels i think strain by strain nature takes its course and you cannot place tooooo much confidence in taking complexity down to a color system. now i do also think all plants will eventually turn amber and when this happens due to waiting to long it is negative but again it can happen for other reasons like terpenes imo..its the terpene profiles that give you different experiences as far as taste and smell and effect and terpenes can change to other terpenes from chemical reactions which is how i think an already chopped curing plant can still change to amber. example being limonene which produces a lemony or other citrus smell. its a natural pesticide, so a highly citrus plant will have a possibility of helping repel some bugs. limonene is used as a heartburn and reflux disease drug as well as a possible chemopreventive agent..also limonene can turn to isoprene in high heat which helps the ozone layer unless alot of nitric oxides are in the atmosphere from factories and such things in which case it actually has the reverse effect and is turned to a compound that harms the lower ozone..a little scientific karma maybe?! and this is all just one terpene.
 
A

amsterdam2015

Well-Known Member
Here is a question;

Why do people who like to take their plants to the point where they have amber trichomes, then dry in the dark?

Hasn't most of the THC (according to lots of people) broken down already? If you are after an amber harvest, why would further breakdown be bad?

Maybe drying and curing in the sun is not as stupid as some suggest, but would actually be the better idea for people looking for a emphasis the couch lock type stone?

If, as some people assume, amber trichomes are just degraded THC, then really the ideal method in every scenario, is harvest when opaque, and adjust the amount of light the drying plants receive? This would lead to quicker harvests, with the "same" amber trichomes at the end of the drying period?

I cant see this holding true personally, I do not think that amber after harvest is the same as amber prior to harvest.

Got terrible weed at the moment, hence all my posts.. :)
 
K

kermit2692

Well-Known Member
i dont think, but also dont know, if the temperature or light level while drying will affect the color or makeup of the trichs or if its simply the drying process that would do this the same no matter what. well ofcourse marijuana is illegal so what im about to say isnt from experience for the most part but the story goes that thc is constantly always degrading in light, much as beer does hence the dark bottles. so the idea of drying in the dark is not about affecting the thc profile or doing anything good at all. instead its a preventative measure since now that the plant is harvested it wont produce more thc as it had been when recieving light alive. now on the other hand the talk of a 48 hour dark period the last two days before harvest IS supposed to effect the plant and this may be what you are confusing together. the point of doing that is to supposedly increase resin production in the trichs kind of like squeezing out the last drop i guess you could say. also people simultaneously reduce humidity for a compounded same effect. i do have to say ive done this, never a side by side with a comparable plant or anything but i kinda felt like it helped but maybe it was because i hadnt seen the plant in two days and it looked extra nice i missed it ha
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
amsterdam2015 said:
Lab tests have shown similar levels of THC in plants with a larger number of amber trichomes, as with opaque, but a lower number of total activated cannabinoids.

Do not believe amber = degraded THC.
Click to expand...

Hey 'amsterdam2015', check out testlabamsterdam.nl, give them a call if you don't believe it. They had/have some info about it on their Facebook page as well, it actually mentioned amber is THC degraded into CBD.

As I mentioned in another topic a while ago, I will have it tested in about 7-8 weeks, at that lab. In particular, hardly any amber vs some amber vs more amber (same plant), which is roughly US vs NL vs Spain/Portugal harvest time, and guess where the CBD is high and where the THC is high and CBD low.

As I mentioned in one of those topics I can not believe it is that simple (a medical user that wants high CBD but doesn't want to get high (THC), would simply have to harvest very late). It is obviously also strain dependent, but how much isn't 'is' what I will have tested. And as we say in the Netherlands: measuring is knowing (sounds better in Dutch as it rhymes).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top