overgrowem
Well-Known Member
True we don't understand it completly but U are using the wrong definition of "THEORY".Check out your collegiate dictionary.
How exactly does space/time fabric work?
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Harrekin
Well-Known Member
Dr Kynes
Well-Known Member
Kip Thorne's own writing is couched in the same word salad used by people trying to sell brown's gas devices to power your home or car, and magnetically charged fuel filters. .
the conceit that the universe is formed by the observer is prevalent among the poindexters who wish to publish unprovable theories masked as hypothesis. case in pont, Schrodinger's Cat, a very popular meme among nerds who wish others to think they are smart:
if a cat is placed in a box with a random delay poison canister (man those germans just LOVE poison canisters, more like Schrodinger's workcamp shower amitirte?) the cat is simultaneously dead and alive until the observer examines the cat to fix it's quantum state.
this is sophistry. the cat is more than capable of determining it's own state without Scroedinger's interference. by this flawed logic, the new world didnt exist until some european explorers created it by fixing it's unknown quantum state. objects can exist wiuthout ever beinjg observed, and the observer's role in any phenomena should be passive, not creative as quantum nerds would like to postulate.
quantum theory is pentecostal "Name It And Claim It" theology wrapped up in the castoff robes of science, and Kip Thorne is just Joel Osteen selling magic as logic. he even has the same creepy feverish grin and zealot's eyes as that freakshow televangelist. This is not an ad hominem attack, it's just an observation. his "theories" fail the test of logic quite nicely on their own. just like any religion i believe that YOU may believe anything you like, but i will retain my right to hold a differing opinion. that you do not provide the same courtesy is quite telling.
i do not disbelieve science, i just do not accept "science" that has logical holes large enough to drive a luxury liner through.
the universe exists, and we exist in it.
the universe existed long before humans first scratched their asses with the first primitive tool, (Yes the Butt Scratcher is the first tool) and wondered "why sky black in some place, light in other?"
parts of the universe as yet unobserved are still existent, and have a quantum state set by their own existence, not flawed human observation.
this does not presume an single all powerful sky daddy who makes the universe for man
believing the universe is created by man through observation does not preclude the existence of a single all powerful sky daddy, it merely intimates that "Sky Daddy is within us" which is as preposterous as believing in scientology
if any agents of scientology are watching this thread, i am not bashing you, I believe in the freedom of science fiction.
Dr Kynes
Well-Known Member
Blasphemy!!
Heretic!
Xenos Tainted Traitor!
Death to the Unclean!
Glory to the Emperor!
Doer
Well-Known Member
"getting all butthurt and shrill over somebody disbelieving the theory you hold most dear sounds more like the plaintive wails of an offended religion rather than science."
You must be looking in the mirror when you write this stuff.
Who is butthurt?
Who is shrill?
Who dis-believes?
Who holds dear?
Who's plaintive wails?
We are trying to help the OP understand their question. We are not answering the question, it has no current answer. Nor are we heaping the BS.
You, on the other hand, sound like you are writing a space opera, comic strip on LSD. You are in the wrong section, brother. Your talents lie elsewhere.
How about putting up some straight talk, Poindexter. That shit is meaningless.
You must be looking in the mirror when you write this stuff.
Who is butthurt?
Who is shrill?
Who dis-believes?
Who holds dear?
Who's plaintive wails?
We are trying to help the OP understand their question. We are not answering the question, it has no current answer. Nor are we heaping the BS.
You, on the other hand, sound like you are writing a space opera, comic strip on LSD. You are in the wrong section, brother. Your talents lie elsewhere.
How about putting up some straight talk, Poindexter. That shit is meaningless.
eye exaggerate
Well-Known Member
...so why do you rule out all things unseen? Just because it's an easy swath?
edit: “Dei sub numine viget"
Dr Kynes
Well-Known Member
"In short, anti-science ranting and insults is just another Religion to me. Science can never make the same mistake twice. Think about that with your postulating antagonism. Can Dr. Kynes do as well? "
sounds pretty shrill and butthurt to me.
kip thorne is a hack. just because you fawn and fellate him at every opportunity doesnt mean his opinion is any more useful than Michio Kaku, Linda Moulton Howe, or Richard Hoagland. they all also have advanced degrees, but they prefer the less rigorous world of Coast To Coast AM and publishing fantastical novels dressed up as scientific research. Kip Thorne is only slightly less of a media whore. if he wanted to be a rockstar he should have put down his sliderule and picked up a guitar.
the claim that quantum theorists pretend they are not making is that the universe is merely our perception of it, and it changes when we arent looking right at it, this is just the same sort of mysticism that lets new age hucksters sell their wacky claims of "Energies" and "Vibrational Harmonics" to the rubes.
kips mathematical models are quite over my head, and i dont pretend to have any particular skill with advanced mathematics or number theory, but his statements outside of the math (which could for all i know be just slight of hand to impress the suckers) sound exactly like the same garbage with vague important sounding phrases, and self congratulatory profundity that deepak chopra sells, and since most people cant check kip's complex math, he could just scribble a few nonsense figures on the blackboard then simply declare that any who doubt are just fools, ignorant, or apostate demons trying to deceive the faithful. this same trick served the catholics for centuries when the bible was written only in latin, kept from the eyes of the public, and the public were mostly illiterate anyway (three levels of protection for the secret mystery cult of christianity, not hiding nothing were they?) kip posts his sacred writ for all to see but for most of the polulace it might as well be written in cuneiform Akadian.
stephen hawking uses complex math that boggles my mind too, but hawking doesnt talk like he is the new brahmin and we are all untouchables fit only to clean his toilet and serve his servants.
so heres some straight talk:
kip thorne is a theorist. his theories are unconvincing to me. this fact seems to drive you to distraction. tough noogies.
Dr Kynes
Well-Known Member
i do not rule out the unseen, i rule it IN.
quantum theory declares that anything unseen does not exist until the observer makes it so, placing the observer in the position of deity. thats not preposterous at all is it?
if they want to make up a new religion they should do it the hard way, like moses, mohammed and L Ron Hubbard did.
also, "Romani ite domum!"
eye exaggerate
Well-Known Member
...oh, sorry, I didn't get that through the poo you threw.
...given the observational conundrum, can we say that it is a 'piece' of God that observes? And, that we are gods by extension, witnessing the created?
Dr Kynes
Well-Known Member
I threw no poo
this poo i eschew
if poo was threw
perhaps it was you?
nobody can say who
would know what you threw
and this splatter of poo
could have come from you
the claim that sky daddy is within us all thus we are forever creating new reality is the sort of new age mysticism that is even more destructive to logic than your standard Appeal to Authority religions.
eye exaggerate
Well-Known Member
...this is the oldest mysticism that I know of. Nothing new about it. The way people manipulate situations to their own advantage is the issue.
*installs mini windshield wiper on monocle*
*finds it positively comical*
Dr Kynes
Well-Known Member
the old mysticism was about secrets kept by sky daddy that should not be disturbed, or my magic book that holds all the answers, and if it appears wrong it's only because youre a witch and must be burnt at the stake. this is the Appeal to Authority, and the stock answer to questions is "It Is Best Not To Ask Such Questions" *...this is the oldest mysticism that I know of. Nothing new about it. The way people manipulate situations to their own advantage is the issue.
*installs mini windshield wiper on monocle*
*finds it positively comical*
* "It Is Best Not To Ask Such Questions" is a registered trademark of Islam Inc. all use by non moslems is apostasy, and is punishable by death.
the New Age bullshit is more egalitarian. they push the idea that you can be or do anything if you only have the will to make it so, by prana energies, vibrational harmonics, organe energy, or any of a variety of other terribly mysterious mysteries, whose secrets can be bought for the low low price of three easy payments of $19.95 (or blowjobs, or sex with your underage daughter/son, etc...), and if they dont work, you just didnt believe hard enough.
Quantum theorists sell the same bullshit just with more math. They just charge a Low Low Price of two easy payments and one really complex one. and blowjobs. gotta have blowjobs.
Doer
Well-Known Member
Just Troll. He wants the fight so he assumes fight.
kip thorne is a theorist. his theories are unconvincing to me. this fact seems to drive you to distraction. tough noogies.
Oh is that the straightest he can get. I'm not driven to anything except being convinced of what is going here. rolly roll, rolly rolly potty troll
kip thorne is a theorist. his theories are unconvincing to me. this fact seems to drive you to distraction. tough noogies.
Oh is that the straightest he can get. I'm not driven to anything except being convinced of what is going here. rolly roll, rolly rolly potty troll
Dr Kynes
Well-Known Member
so my reluctance to join kip Thorne's choir and sing out "Amen!" and "Preach On!" at the appropriate moments in his sermons means im a troll. if you were truely as confident in the illogical perplexing statements of Brother Kip or as he might soon style himself, Reverend Thorne, then my doubting and heresy would not rustle your jimmies.
hell if i embraced the fantastical claims of homeopathy and started shouting about water memory you could simply snicker.
and unless i tried selling magic potions made from 10c diluted goat smegma and deuterium i would be harming nobody with my silly primitive belief that even if i cannot see it, my living room is not swarming with weasels, and my motorcycle is not (in the infinite possibilities of quantum mechanics) made up entirely of SteakUmm.
that you feel the need to rush to the defense (again and again) of Ayatollah Thorne says more about you than it does about my silly beliefs (not theories because i dont have mathematical models) or Il Papi Kip's claims
eye exaggerate
Well-Known Member
...dude, solar energy is not egalitarian...low price? If you want to believe that sht, you can. Until you've satisfied conditions within yourself, it doesn't matter how much money you put on 'it' - 'it' ain't "coming".
...it seems that you're buying the mechanical shell of religious expression (much like a 'believer'), not the expresser 'it'self. Really, do you think it's all positive thinking and fairy dust? No. In synthesis, it is about no longer accepting the 'animal' within from having 90% of the stage.
...do you think that a person who is not at this level of self restraint would be 'granted' knowledge on just how space and time coexist? How so when the order of the day is lodging, fcking and eating?
Dr Kynes
Well-Known Member
who mentioned solar energy? but yes solar energy is by definition egalitarian. it shines on the rich, the poor, the black the white, the smart the dumb and the sober or the drunken all the same. i have no clue what conditions within myself i should satisfy, nor do i pay any religious huckster for salvation, enlightenment, wisdom or mystical powers. the hucksters who profit from new age nonsense and the gullibility of the least intelligent, or most credulous sell everything from crystals, to designs for "orgone cannons" to fire at alien spaceships disguised as clouds (not joking, sadly)...dude, solar energy is not egalitarian...low price? If you want to believe that sht, you can. Until you've satisfied conditions within yourself, it doesn't matter how much money you put on 'it' - 'it' ain't "coming".
...it seems that you're buying the mechanical shell of religious expression (much like a 'believer'), not the expresser 'it'self. Really, do you think it's all positive thinking and fairy dust? No. In synthesis, it is about no longer accepting the 'animal' within from having 90% of the stage.
...do you think that a person who is not at this level of self restraint would be 'granted' knowledge on just how space and time coexist? How so when the order of the day is lodging, fcking and eating?
all religions are not evil, but all religions are about control and conditioning, for whatever purpose the design permits. some religions require monthly (or even weekly) donations or you will not receive the benefit of salvation. some sell magical prayer hankies, plenary indulgences, or pebbles from the dead sea as mystical totems and gris gris, and some insist (pentecostals) that if you donate to the Creflo A Dollar (his real actual name, as given at birth) or Joel Osteen you will be showered with blessings ten fold ( give more coin, get a bigger payout when the heavenly slot machine comes up cherries). the money i donate of my own choosing to my temple is to maintain the temple and it's library and staff for the musings and study of other persons who seek religious advice form the elders not as a transaction to purchase entrance to the afterlife.
all religion, regardless of it's trappings is always about control. sometimes that control is monetary, sometimes political, often it is sociological or psychological, but it is always control. this control can be good, inspiring art, piety, music, devotion to a cause higher than self gratification, and even less tangible benefits, or it can be evil, demanding the adherent submit unthinking to the dogma of the faith. most religions (particularly christians, militant athieists, mohammedans and some of the wackier non abrahamic cults) demand unfailing loyalty, and evangelical zeal. when you doubt the believer's sacred beliefs they invariably become argumentative, rude, or even violent. thats how you tell a dogmatic religion from an idea. religions have more in common with autocratic government than any "spirituality" (including my own, control is control even if the collar seems to sit lightly)
dogmatic religion forces the adherent to submit to the master's demands, like a dog at heel. thus these religions place man in the position of a beast, subject to the conditioning and motivations of his master. many people find these religions less and less appealing these days, and they cast about for something to believe in. one of the lees savory choices is the New Age bullshit. they sell enlightenment at bargain bin prices, offer false hope to those desperate for anything to cling to, and shamelessly make up the shit as they go along to ensure that the suckers keep buying more useless geegaws and more super secret "auditing" and guided meditation.
the New Age hucksters are usually non-dogmatic, and they do not discriminate. they will fleece any sheep of any colour if they can get him under the shears. the beauty of the New Age is that they never judge. everything is wholesome and good if you want to do it, there are no rules, no morality, no guiding principles save "that it harm none, do as thou wilt" which has been adopted by a wide variety of scammers selling religion for coins.
most of the New Age quasi-religions claim to be introspective, directed towards self improvement through "self actualization" "visualization techniques" "guided meditation" "vibrational harmonics" "the inner light" "prana" mysterious "energies" which defy explanation, and other buzzworthy catch phrases that dont mean shit. (deepak choprah is just the most prolific and widely accepted of these gurus) listen to George Noury on Coast to Coast AM and youll soon see what i mean.
non-dogmatic religions (no matter how outlandish) are often positive in nature and result, despite the seemingly wacky assertions of the adherents.
a fine example is the faulun gong in china, they are mildly eccentric tai chi practicing goofballs who claim that there is a rotating wheel of "Chi" (thats chinese for unquantifiable imaginary energy that does no work, but in fact requires work to create it) and if your Chi Wheel (thats the eponymous Faulun) rotates to the left, you generate "negative energy" in the world, but if you practice tai chi and believe hard enough you can make it turn to the right, and this will create "positive energy" thus they practice their harmless tai chi rituals (thats the Gong) to try and rotate their faulluns in the positive direction for the good of the universe and eventually world peace. harmless, unprofitable dedication to a belief that cant hurt anybody, not even themselves and enriches no shysters. anyone can join, or leave at will, and they hold their ritual slow-motion kung fu danceoffs in public parks all over the world. i have never even heard of anyone being asked for a donation, as the faulun gong have no temples, no clergy and no sacred texts that must be published. anyone who wishes can simply walk up, and begin making the motions. experienced "practitioners" will assist the noobs in getting the moves just right, and then everybody tries to make their energy wheel rotate the right direction together. quaint, charming harmless and only slighty wierd.
and then theres heavens gate, the moonies, the krishnas, the manson familiy scientology, islam, catholicism, socialism(yes kids, its a religion based on adherence to dogma and unswerving loyalty to the faith or you get the gulag or a bullet) and many more.
eye exaggerate
Well-Known Member
...thanks for the post / obvious effort. I do agree with a lot of what you've written. But, I can tell you that one thing really stuck out. You mention religions being about control and conditioning, and, you're 100% correct. The base teachings of religions is that man should 'satisfy the inner condition' of translating outward sexual expressions to 'inner' expressions. This, imo, is a path toward being a human vs. an intellectual animal. So yes, religion is about control and conditioning (of man's sexual potency, so may reach a place of peace - "shambhala" or something like that).
Ok, now, the sun is not egalitarian. In the mundane world, yes it is, but the psychology of religion speaks to an 'inner' sun / son and that sun / son is not expressed without satisfying those conditions I mentioned. Of course, these are my own observations - but they are supported and not just random blurts.
Here, I apologize for the c&p but it spells this out better than I can:
There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. - John 3:1-6
"In Gnosticism and Esotericism, one understands as Second Birth the fabrication of the Solar Bodies and the Incarnation of the Being."The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. - John 3:1-6
- The Esoteric Treatise of Hermetic Astrology
"To incarnate the Divine Immortal Triad (Atman-Buddhi-Manas) signifies the Second Birth, which means to come out of the Ninth Sphere. The child who is born comes out from the womb. Whosoever is born within the Superior Worlds comes out of the Ninth Sphere (Sex)."
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*no real teaching (of anything) is about money. All the crystals and that kind of stuff has it's place, as 'symbols'. Symbols often represent potentialities. They're meant to be neutral. And, a sucker is born every minute
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Solar, soular, Solera, soldiers of the Son, sun, some sums, numbers ... Leviticus, Dude they're onto me ... energy, entity, Ens a se, so you see, to the Eye these are all aspects, pages bound in one cover. No exaggeration. And the words were with God, and they were God. Word up. cn
eye exaggerate
Well-Known Member
...holy crap I lol'd right there!
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Every now and then, a spark enters me and whispers. This was one of my sparkier moments, and I owe it to you. I am glad that my splinter made you beam. cn