How exactly does space/time fabric work?

mindphuk said:

The 'alphabet' might change but mathematics will work no matter where you are in the universe. Whether you write 10+10=20 or X+X=XX, the concept of twenty doesn't change. Pi is 3.1415926... regardless of how you measure it. All ratios from e to the Pythagorean to that of mass and gravitation, will be the same whether you use numbers to describe them or harmonics of various lengths of vibrating strings. The laws of probability do not change depending on where you are. The only question is how they will be represented, what number-base and symbols used are inconsequential.

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And what if our mythical Entity had never perceived our particular Subjective reality? We have an evolution of survival based, sensory certainty. It may not even have a concept for Pythagorean Solids. It may not perceive it's Subjectivity in that way, at all. Multi-dimensional, non-causal perceptions of a Quantum kind would never understand our view that Pi is "always" anything. May not possess a causal concept for always, even.

Is it not merely anthropomorphic to suggest an entirely different sensorium would produce mutually understandable math?

Doer said:

And what if our mythical Entity had never perceived our particular Subjective reality? We have an evolution of survival based, sensory certainty. It may not even have a concept for Pythagorean Solids. It may not perceive it's Subjectivity in that way, at all. Multi-dimensional, non-causal perceptions of a Quantum kind would never understand our view that Pi is "always" anything. May not possess a causal concept for always, even.

Is it not merely anthropomorphic to suggest an entirely different sensorium would produce mutually understandable math?

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if they were part of this universe and interacted with this universe as then they would have to have some sensory input of this universe thats analogous to ours

ethereal presences from beyond our dimension could be what ever you imagine but when it comes to us communicating its kinda irrelevant

fb360 said:

Mathematics can most simply be comprehended as a numerical language that explains how we observe ourselves, the world we live in, and what we like to call the universe.

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Numbers are within nature. We didn't invent math, we discovered it. That's the main point.

So to get straight to the point, I agree that another intelligent species, much like us, would have a universal language that they use to describe themselves, their surroundings, and their universe. I also agree, that relationships, ratios, and fundamental entities (the 4 dimensions we describe things with), would all still hold and exist. However, the key point is: would their language of understanding the universe, indeed be a numerical language, or even remotely resemble ours?

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No, the language could be completely different. Like I mentioned, maybe they use sound waves and harmonics to denote special ratios. The thing is, underneath it all, are merely numbers. Counting is basic. I don't see how any intelligence could arise that cannot understand the concept of individual things and numbers of them. Cycles occur all over the universe from pulsars to the orbit of a planet of moon any life form must evolve on.

What if their senses are different than ours? What if they are extremely more capable in terms of brain computing power? What if they don't have any senses to observe their environment, and can only speculate and understand the universe through "dreaming" or thought? If another species perception of the universe is different than ours, it is probable that their language of understanding is also different than ours.

I think we tend to believe that other intelligent life forms will be much like humans (physical entities made up of energy. Oxygen breathing, CO2 respirating, endothermic beings), when the probability of that is near 0. Shit, just look at physical life before humans; none of Earth's creature even remotely resembled a human, and this is just one planet. I tend to believe that other intelligent life forms will also come in the form of energy, but not be coupled with a physical structure.

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If we meet any species that has technology, they will have some way of manipulating the environment, otherwise they may as well be whales. As far as we know, whales could potentially be as intelligent as people, their language seems to imply they can communicate in very complex ways, including numbers. The idea of incorporeal 'energy' beings is unlikely until we can demonstrate that information can be maintained without any physical structure. Any being that has evolved on another planet will have to have come about by some sort of Darwinian selection and that means they have some sort of physical form for natural selection to work with.

Whether they saw in a different part of the spectrum, had no "vision" at all, or had any other type of sensory input the laws of physics would remain constant. The laws of the universe are universal. There is a fundamental difference between other types of language and math. Every language can create different letters, and different pronunciations, and there is not necessarily any rhyme or reason between different languages. But math is universal; it is expressing the laws of physics. Independent cultures will all measure the exact same speed of light, the exact same ratio of mass between all the fundamental particles, and the exact same constants, laws, and relationships between different particles and forces regardless of what language they speak, or how they physically represent the numbers.

[video=youtube;AmeWDaY0R7Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=AmeWDaY0R7Y#t=14 95s[/video]

I think they point out very well how important ratios are and why we should expect any technologically advanced species to recognize them

Here's the link at the correct time code, 24:55 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=AmeWDaY0R7Y#t=1496s

^^ Genomic SETI! Wow, what a job. I wonder who funds that project...

mindphuk said:

[video=youtube;AmeWDaY0R7Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=AmeWDaY0R7Y#t=14 95s[/video]

I think they point out very well how important ratios are and why we should expect any technologically advanced species to recognize them

Here's the link at the correct time code, 24:55 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=AmeWDaY0R7Y#t=1496s

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If you watch your example, they clearly state "we think", "trying to work out", "believes", as well as their light example didn't work. Furthermore, their examples were based on a numerical language, leading to ratios, much like I already stated might not be the case.

mindphuk said:

Numbers are within nature. We didn't invent math, we discovered it. That's the main point.

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That is how WE perceive the world... We invented math, to say otherwise is blasphemy. Mathematics is a HUMAN language; I don't see any other species on Earth communicating between themselves with math. They might use numerical based logic, but that is completely different than creating, using and expanding upon an understanding language.

mindphuk said:

No, the language could be completely different. Like I mentioned, maybe they use sound waves and harmonics to denote special ratios. The thing is, underneath it all, are merely numbers. Counting is basic. I don't see how any intelligence could arise that cannot understand the concept of individual things and numbers of them. Cycles occur all over the universe from pulsars to the orbit of a planet of moon any life form must evolve on.

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You base your argument on the assumption that another intelligent life form will be human-like. I already gave an example of: what if the species is pure energy and communicates in a way we can even fathom? I like to keep my mind open, because we honestly have no clue about nearly everything about the cosmos and universe. It would be silly to state that we FOR SURE KNOW that another intelligent species is going to act in a specific manner.

mindphuk said:

If we meet any species that has technology, they will have some way of manipulating the environment, otherwise they may as well be whales. As far as we know, whales could potentially be as intelligent as people, their language seems to imply they can communicate in very complex ways, including numbers. The idea of incorporeal 'energy' beings is unlikely until we can demonstrate that information can be maintained without any physical structure. Any being that has evolved on another planet will have to have come about by some sort of Darwinian selection and that means they have some sort of physical form for natural selection to work with.

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Same as the above comment. You are thinking of a replica of Earth, because that is the only place we know life exists... 20 years ago we thought it was impossible for life to exist on Earth at 500F or -200F, yet we have found organisms that THRIVE in that environment. Again, a classic example of the FACT that we know very little about the cosmos, our galaxy, and even our own planet.

Omg

ginjawarrior said:

if they were part of this universe and interacted with this universe as then they would have to have some sensory input of this universe thats analogous to ours

ethereal presences from beyond our dimension could be what ever you imagine but when it comes to us communicating its kinda irrelevant

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Argument to the extreme and anthropomorphic dismissal. Only you say "beyond our dimension."

Only you imagine, "...then they would have to have some sensory input... ("Wouldn't they???? Mommy???)

All these discussions with you end up in sophistry.

Doer said:

Argument to the extreme and anthropomorphic dismissal. Only you say "beyond our dimension."

Only you imagine, "...then they would have to have some sensory input... ("Wouldn't they???? Mommy???)

All these discussions with you end up in sophistry.

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you try so hard to sound relevant dont you?

I like the way you think Mr. M. And you won't find me saying that about everyone.

...will have to have come about by some sort of Darwinian selection and that means they have some sort of physical form for natural selection to work with.

When I read this, I see the usual clues of shaky logic. "will have to have..." Why? You are now going way past Darwin. You can't propose that Darwinian selection is anything more than something quite unique to our Eco-system.

Natural selection was stamped out long ago in our domesticated species. Just one local example of jacking the DNA. You cannot propose DNA for aliens. And you cannot propose that intelligence requires evolution. No second datum.

And really, I cannot say, we discovered math. It seems a pure invention, like Time to sub-divide periodic durations. Does nature have a Zero? An absolute Nothing? Of course, not. The Zero is a construct for a base 10 or base X number system. I'm also quite familar with Base2, Base8 and Base16. Math is a human Construct. No natural math, no natural time. Only NOW is real. The rest is subjective abstraction of a Human mind. No way to say if math is even a transferable concept to non-human intelligence.

Now, I sure you will not argue that we got our counting systems from Nature. And please grant that by observing Nature we created the abstracts of Ideal Solids. There are no Pythagorean solids in nature.
And latter, Fibornacci and Mandelbrot created Math that was found in Nature. Nature was not the Eureka moment for polynomial expressions.

No, we invent tool to understand our sensorium. Then we apply to the tools to the sensorim and then,what do you know? We find that the sensorium reflects our tools. Hmmmm.....???

It is OK. To not be anthropomorphically, is actually and completely impossible.

ginjawarrior said:

you try so hard to sound relevant dont you?

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And you without trying actually are irrelevant.

Doer said:

I like the way you think Mr. M. And you won't find me saying that about everyone.

...will have to have come about by some sort of Darwinian selection and that means they have some sort of physical form for natural selection to work with.

When I read this, I see the usual clues of shaky logic. "will have to have..." Why? You are now going way past Darwin. You can't propose that Darwinian selection is anything more than something quite unique to our Eco-system.

Natural selection was stamped out long ago in our domesticated species. Just one local example of jacking the DNA.
You cannot propose DNA for aliens. And you cannot propose that intelligence requires evolution. No second datum.

It is OK. To not be anthropomorphically, is actually and completely impossible.

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lol your suggesting fully formed intelligent being's "poofed" into existence with no coding(dna analogy) to make them up? with no ecosystem bellow them to support them?

and you try suggesting our logic is shaky

No, Sophist. I'm suggesting, only, that you are mired in anthropomorphic thinking.

How do you possible think that DNA, or analog coding is the only way to intelligence. Only Sophists restate anothers'
point and negatively embellishes it for EGO.

You said 'poof into existence.' I didn't say what you argue against. We see so much condescending sophistry in the Presidential debates. But, it has no place in Science.

Doer said:

No, Sophist. I'm suggesting, only, that you are mired in anthropomorphic thinking.

How do you possible think that DNA, or analog coding is the only way to intelligence. Only Sophists restate anothers'
point and negatively embellishes it for EGO.

You said 'poof into existence.' I didn't say what you argue against. We see so much condescending sophistry in the Presidential debates. But, it has no place in Science.

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oh so your not proposing evolution of any sort
and your not proposing intelligence appearing spontaneously

what is it your proposing then?

fb360 said:

That is how WE perceive the world... We invented math, to say otherwise is blasphemy. Mathematics is a HUMAN language; I don't see any other species on Earth communicating between themselves with math. They might use numerical based logic, but that is completely different than creating, using and expanding upon an understanding language.


You base your argument on the assumption that another intelligent life form will be human-like. I already gave an example of: what if the species is pure energy and communicates in a way we can even fathom? I like to keep my mind open, because we honestly have no clue about nearly everything about the cosmos and universe. It would be silly to state that we FOR SURE KNOW that another intelligent species is going to act in a specific manner.


Same as the above comment. You are thinking of a replica of Earth, because that is the only place we know life exists... 20 years ago we thought it was impossible for life to exist on Earth at 500F or -200F, yet we have found organisms that THRIVE in that environment. Again, a classic example of the FACT that we know very little about the cosmos, our galaxy, and even our own planet.

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As has already been pointed out numerous times by numerous people we didn't invent math, we simply discovered it. No one is proposing that an intelligent species across the universe will use the symbols 3.1415 to represent the value of pi, however they will derive the exact same value for pi. Likewise they most likely will not use a, b, and c to represent pythagorean theorem, nor will they call it pythagorean theorem. But the theorem will be valid none-the-less.

No one is saying if you drop me off on pandora and the locals hand me a calculus book written in their own language, that I will immediately be able to decipher it and understand it. But if you convert their symbols into the ones that you are familiar with they will be the EXACT same. This is not true for other invented languages. English will not translate to japanese letter for letter, and is not constructed the exact same. The calculus will translate letter for letter though, or else one of the civilizations has made a mistake.

Doer said:

When I read this, I see the usual clues of shaky logic. "will have to have..." Why? You are now going way past Darwin. You can't propose that Darwinian selection is anything more than something quite unique to our Eco-system.

Natural selection was stamped out long ago in our domesticated species. Just one local example of jacking the DNA. You cannot propose DNA for aliens. And you cannot propose that intelligence requires evolution. No second datum.

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What exactly leads you to believe darwinian selection is unique to our eco system?

How exactly do you propose a species becomes intelligent enough to control the environment in such a way as to bypass natural selection and perform selective breeding, without a solid foundation of natural selection leading up to that point?

What is your alternative explanation for intelligence that does not require evolution?

fb360 said:

That is how WE perceive the world... We invented math, to say otherwise is blasphemy. Mathematics is a HUMAN language; I don't see any other species on Earth communicating between themselves with math. They might use numerical based logic, but that is completely different than creating, using and expanding upon an understanding language.

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Just because it was developed by humans, does not make it uniquely human.

You base your argument on the assumption that another intelligent life form will be human-like. I already gave an example of:

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And I already explained how I am not using that assumption. Continuing to accuse me of that does not make you right.

what if the species is pure energy and communicates in a way we can even fathom?

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Making up fantasy ideas about what other creatures might be is great, however if you violate laws of physics and nature in doing so, your ideas are probably unlikely. If a species can figure out how to separate consciousness from a physical form, then they must have started with a physical form. If you believe that intelligent energy beings can come into existence without evolution, then that's equivalent to gods and ghosts and I will dismiss that until you or anyone else can provide evidence that such a thing can possibly exist.

I like to keep my mind open, because we honestly have no clue about nearly everything about the cosmos and universe. It would be silly to state that we FOR SURE KNOW that another intelligent species is going to act in a specific manner.

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They will surely have a physical presence, and if they have technology, then they must have a way to manipulate the environment. How can you disagree with these basic assumptions?

Same as the above comment. You are thinking of a replica of Earth,

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NOOOO! No I'm not. You just can't read very well.

Doer said:

I like the way you think Mr. M. And you won't find me saying that about everyone.

...will have to have come about by some sort of Darwinian selection and that means they have some sort of physical form for natural selection to work with.

When I read this, I see the usual clues of shaky logic. "will have to have..." Why? You are now going way past Darwin. You can't propose that Darwinian selection is anything more than something quite unique to our Eco-system.

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Really? How so? The idea of simple organisms becoming more complex over time cannot happen without the basic tenets laid out by Darwin. You need a lot of time and something that can carry information and a method to replicate the information and allow for changes in that information.

Natural selection was stamped out long ago in our domesticated species.

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Yes but the selection process is still Darwinian in nature, just artificial,, not natural.

Just one local example of jacking the DNA. You cannot propose DNA for aliens. And you cannot propose that intelligence requires evolution. No second datum.

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Sure I can. I propose a DNA analog, some sort of replicator. Of course it won't be DNA specifically. And yes, any complex intelligence will require evolution. Do you have any other method of getting such complexity? Didn't think so.

And really, I cannot say, we discovered math. It seems a pure invention,

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It might seem that way but you are wrong.