How do you define Socialism?

dontexist21

Well-Known Member
Here http://www.socialismvscommunism.com/is a website which list the difference between socialism an communism, since you do not understand it.

Karl Marx did not event socialism, it has been around long before he existed. The bible which is a few thousand years old holds many socialist ideas.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
Yes the SOCIETY builds and OWNS it, that is socialism. Here is the definition from definition.com:
a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

The society builds the roads with tax dollars, so the soceity as a whole owns the roads. How is this not socialism? Again you must have missed the part where I said I believe in capatilism and my family has owned their own businesses and I am trying to start my own. I have nothing against the rich, I think they are a testament to what you can become in this Country. You have a very small view of socialism which starts and ends with USSR and Cuba, and you missed the point that socialism and communism ARE NOT THE SAME THING. Tell me how public education is anything but a social program, or hurts a country by allowing the less fortunate to get and education to better themselves. Capitalism sure as hell does not do this. I guess countries such as Finland and Sweden are such a horrible place with their horrible social programs.

Again, you must have a combination of Capitalism and Socialist policies to run a proper government. Because while Capitalism is a good system, it does not answer many problems, so you need social programs to provide where it fails. How is that a crazy leftist policy?
Use of the word SOCIALISM and SOCIALIST referr specifically to the definition you pasted, but perhaps did not read thoroughly, and is also fundamentally incorrect. ill break it down and show you the important error that makes this definition an example of the confusion i mentioned before.

clause 1) "a theory or system of social organization" correct, socialism is a theory of government, not a method of action by a government, much like smoking weed is a component of Rastafarian religion, but everyone who smokes weed is not a rasta, and every rasta does not smoke weed.

clause 2) "that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control" also correct. Socialism is a theory of government which is fundamentally about control of who owns what. this is true of most forms and theories of government

clause 3) "of the means of production and distribution" This is where socialism starts to diverge from most other forms, in that the means of production (farms, mines, stands of timber, water resources, oil reserves, electrical generators etc...) AND distribution, including roads trains aircraft trucks even (as in the USSR cuba and china) donkeys and hand carts

clause 4) "of capital, land, etc.," which is a nice way of saying EVERYTHING! Absolutely everything in the ground, on the ground, or above it. (currently one of the most valuable state commodities in china is "air rights" look it up)

clause 5) "in the community as a whole" this is the error. Ownership of land, resources, capital, the means of production and distribution, and in fact the peasants themselves is not vested in "the community" that's where this definition becomes the definition of not socialism, but COMMUNISM. in socialist systems ownership of everything is vested in the government. this is not a minor distinction, this is the fundamental difference that separates Communism (harmless, voluntary and resign-able) and Socialism (dangerous, oppressive, repressive and ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY)

example: Communism. Hippie communes are still operating in california. They work like this: applicant shows up, enters the commune and begins performing whatever work he feels will best improve the lives of the collective. (i.e. growing weed) he eats the food provided by those who grow corn, raise chickens, or other livestock, or is purchased using the collective's money acquired through the sale of handicrafts weed or tie-died T-shits. all major decisions about life in the commune are decided by a simple vote, an elected board of representative hippies, or a quick game of paper/rock/scissors. minor decisions that do not effect the collective as a whole are decided by the individual. A resident who becomes beligerant, unstable, or really obnoxiously lazy and un-productive can be ejected from the commune by a vote, or the council of elder deadheads. anyone who wishes to leave the commune, no matter how crucial he may be to it's continued operation, is free to walk away at any time. that is communism. it's voluntary, it's harmless, and you can quit if you like.

example : Socialism. The land and everything on it is allegedly owned by the collective, but use, access (in and out), produce, and improvements are completely controlled by a supreme leader (Kim Jong Il) a supreme soviet, a supreme council, or the ruling party. Every resident is allotted such resources (food housing education clothing transportation etc...) the government decides he requires, and also assigns him his duties. some socialist societies use a monetary system which mimics the actions of a free market but are in fact controlled by the government (your job "pays" 500 rubles a month, with this "money" you may "buy" clothing food and goods from government run stores, and enjoy an afternoon at the government run cinema, watching government produces films about how awesome the government is). If you wish to move from smolensk to leningrad, you must petition the government for permission to move. If you wish to leave the country, you are counter-0revolutionary, and get to become a wood cutter in siberia.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
Here http://www.socialismvscommunism.com/is a website which list the difference between socialism an communism, since you do not understand it.

Karl Marx did not event socialism, it has been around long before he existed. The bible which is a few thousand years old holds many socialist ideas.
dude, really? if you think that silly web-page is the truth you need to read Marx, Mao, Trotsky, Mussolini and (yes, I know, godwin) Hitler. The theories of communism and socialism were crated by Marx and his contemporaries. Anybody who says otherwise is deceiving you. As well to claim Einstein didnt invent E=MC2, it has been around since the big bang, he just took credit for it.

Communism, and it's toxic afterbirth Socialism are the product of rich privileged smug wankers in austria and germany around 1850, and have been rebranded, re-shaped, re-defined and re-imagined so many times they have become almost impossible to discuss, as every asshole with 2 semesters of poli-sci thinks he has it all locked up, and will "No-True-Scotsman" away any criticism of his personal favorite ideology. This confusion over wht is, and is not socialism and communism acts like a magic cloak protecting the adherents, proponents and tauts of each "Ism" to deflect all questions and criticisms onto the other groups.

Stop listening to ding dongs with shitty web pages, and just read Marx. He unashamedly lays out the details of his theory for you, and as the OG Commie he doesnt even front. It's 100% In Your Face, No Holds Barred, Hot, Wet, Sticky, Full Release Comunist Porn. Bring a tissue.
 

dontexist21

Well-Known Member
dude, really? if you think that silly web-page is the truth you need to read Marx, Mao, Trotsky, Mussolini and (yes, I know, godwin) Hitler. The theories of communism and socialism were crated by Marx and his contemporaries. Anybody who says otherwise is deceiving you. As well to claim Einstein didnt invent E=MC2, it has been around since the big bang, he just took credit for it.

Communism, and it's toxic afterbirth Socialism are the product of rich privileged smug wankers in austria and germany around 1850, and have been rebranded, re-shaped, re-defined and re-imagined so many times they have become almost impossible to discuss, as every asshole with 2 semesters of poli-sci thinks he has it all locked up, and will "No-True-Scotsman" away any criticism of his personal favorite ideology. This confusion over wht is, and is not socialism and communism acts like a magic cloak protecting the adherents, proponents and tauts of each "Ism" to deflect all questions and criticisms onto the other groups.

Stop listening to ding dongs with shitty web pages, and just read Marx. He unashamedly lays out the details of his theory for you, and as the OG Commie he doesnt even front. It's 100% In Your Face, No Holds Barred, Hot, Wet, Sticky, Full Release Comunist Porn. Bring a tissue.
Again you ignore my point on the government need social programs to take over where Capitilism fails. I have read Marx and again I do not agree with him. Answer me this do you believe that social programs are needed which allow for social mobility where Capitalism fails? And do you believe programs such as public education are Capitalistic programs? I don't care if you are calling it communism or socialism or fucking monkey science. I am talking about an evolved look at socialit concepts which fit into a capitalistic society, which is what we have. Horray we agree that socialism was not invented by Marx, but you are so hung up on how Marx defined it you are not seeing it how it is in our system today, i.e. social programs such as medicare, medicaid, public schools, food stamps and many many more which help many Americans who do not have money to afford the basics especially in todays economy. You can not ignore that non of these are Capitalistic ideas, but are socialistic ideas. They are needed, we can argue all day about how they work, let me make it clear that I think they need to be fixed, but still needed.

Let me repeat myself I do not view socialism the way Marx did, he did not event it, it has been changed and rebranded plenty of times throughout history. The way Marx had it is wrong, just the same as Adam Smith had it wrong iwth a pure capatilistic society. And FYI Einstein did create E=mc squared. He was the one to derive the equation, which is as close to creating as you get in theorectical physics.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
Again you ignore my point on the government need social programs to take over where Capitilism fails. I have read Marx and again I do not agree with him. Answer me this do you believe that social programs are needed which allow for social mobility where Capitalism fails? And do you believe programs such as public education are Capitalistic programs? I don't care if you are calling it communism or socialism or fucking monkey science. I am talking about an evolved look at socialit concepts which fit into a capitalistic society, which is what we have. Horray we agree that socialism was not invented by Marx, but you are so hung up on how Marx defined it you are not seeing it how it is in our system today, i.e. social programs such as medicare, medicaid, public schools, food stamps and many many more which help many Americans who do not have money to afford the basics especially in todays economy. You can not ignore that non of these are Capitalistic ideas, but are socialistic ideas. They are needed, we can argue all day about how they work, let me make it clear that I think they need to be fixed, but still needed.

Let me repeat myself I do not view socialism the way Marx did, he did not event it, it has been changed and rebranded plenty of times throughout history. The way Marx had it is wrong, just the same as Adam Smith had it wrong iwth a pure capatilistic society. And FYI Einstein did create E=mc squared. He was the one to derive the equation, which is as close to creating as you get in theorectical physics.
Again, how any particular individual defines Socialism, Communism, or even Capitalism is irrelevant. What matters is what differentiates these systems and theories from each other. Marx and his contemporaries were the first to define, codify and describe Communism and Socialism in both theoretical and practical terms. Just like Einstein's theory of relativity, Marx's and Engle's theory of Communism and Socialism (linked because they were created together, in the 1850's) were considered groundbreaking, and exciting. They really started taking off around 1895, and were the "New Hotness" at the dawning of the 20th century. This is fact, not opinion. Simple Provable Fact. Any scholarly resource you choose, from the lowly Wikipedia to the stunning erudition of Oxford University history lectures (available on youtubes) will inform you the same way. Before Engle and Marx there was no such thing as a theory of Communism, or Socialism. Hell, even Henry Ford flirted with socialist theory before embracing Fascism (The festering boil on the ass of communism) and Nazi (the nasty oozing pustule on the tip of the festering boil on the ass of Communism) ideologies (No Godwin). Multi-millionaire socialite and philanthopist Armin Hammer was so enamoured with the new ideals of the socialist utopia of the soviet union that he bought, crated up and shipped at his own expense several million dollars worth of farm tractors and combines, bound for the soviet dreamland. History is silent on the fate of these farm machines, but most likely they were re-sold to other countries by unscrupulous and crooked politburo apparatchiks.

Social programs, construction programs and public works are as old as human society. this does not mean they are socialist. It means they are SOCIAL! Your argument is as specious as declaring slaves on the plantations of the ante-bellum south were part of a socialist collective, and benefited from their labours on behalf of the "community". It only looks true if you squint really hard, from a long way off, in the dark, with a blindfold on.

TLDR; everything social is not Socialist, everything common is not Communist, and everything done by a democrat is not Democratic.
 

MellowFarmer

Well-Known Member
Imo socialism, communism, and other various names with the same plan are successfully taking over our world with great speed. The music industry is conditioning the sheeple to accept socialism by indoctrinating certain socialist phrases while the two faced politicians of the world are slowly putting the Stateless Communism puzzle pieces together.

It's funny how the supporters make socialism sound so good like nothing can go wrong lmfao. Just wait there is no stopping it now, people are ignorant... One cant do an honest poll on peoples opinions of socialism because they don't even know what it is.. I don't even have a full grasp on it yet. So many different forms of socialism and different ways of using/incorporating it into the society.. How does one know what the final outcome will be?

Once we realize were living in socialism/communism it will be too late. Then the communist will take overr. Wouldn't Socialism in the United States turn it into a Communist state in the end?
The only actual fact you stated was you have no grasp of what Socialism is. I've posted it and quoted it so please don't read it and remain ignorant with the rest of the sheeple...

what songs where why huh? All mainstream music, pop crap Britney Spears or New Kids in my day are for sheeple, not Socialists.:peace:
 

MellowFarmer

Well-Known Member
Here http://www.socialismvscommunism.com/is a website which list the difference between socialism an communism, since you do not understand it.

Karl Marx did not event socialism, it has been around long before he existed. The bible which is a few thousand years old holds many socialist ideas.
Yes, the main character in that book is the first socialist minded leader I've dug up... A shame what the Roman's did to that nice guy's message :peace:

How the hell BTW do the Reps get away with claiming as their own the Original Liberal?
 

MellowFarmer

Well-Known Member
Like the government fixing your roads, that's a form of socialism
Like the idea of public education, that's a form of socialism
Like government cleaning your water, that's a form of socialism
Like the government investing in medicine, that's a form of socialism.

Get over it socialism has been in our system, and every other prospering 21st government. Capitalism purely WILL NOT WORK. It does not take care of everything. If you want a society where its members are able to be up word mobile you need certain social programs to allow for this. Would you rather have a child born to poor parents no fault of their own be able to study work hard and gain their piece of the American pie, or rob you and YOU will pay for them to go to jail and give no benefit to society. Taxes are not stealing from you, you are paying the government so that they can do things such as fix infrastructure and take up the slack where private enterprise does not work. Get over it. It does not work all of the time, but guess what people do not vote, so politician do what they want. Everyone points the finger at the politician, yet it is the people who let them get away with it.

And the clarify, my family has owned their own business and I am working to start my very own, so I believe in Capitalism, just know it is not the answer for everything.
Well done, it's so simple in my head I have difficulty explaining it.
 

dontexist21

Well-Known Member
Then how do you define it, under what system does it fall in? Sure as hell is not Capitalistic. I am sorry yes they are socialist programs. What are they then? The soceity came together and decided to build a road, which they all own. That is socialism. Yes it has been around before Marx decided to call it socialism, that still makes it socialism in some way or form. Socialism has evolved over time, it did not start with Marx. Of course not everything social is socialist, unless it involve a society all owning something. Now that makes it socialist, we all own the roads since our tax money pays for it. What do you call it?

Yes they are not socialism in the way Marx defined it, but they still have many of the roots in the fact that the society has decided to do something together and all own in. What do you define food stamps as? I know its a social program, but under what system?
 

MellowFarmer

Well-Known Member
Yes the SOCIETY builds and OWNS it, that is socialism. Here is the definition from definition.com:
a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

The society builds the roads with tax dollars, so the soceity as a whole owns the roads. How is this not socialism? Again you must have missed the part where I said I believe in capatilism and my family has owned their own businesses and I am trying to start my own. I have nothing against the rich, I think they are a testament to what you can become in this Country. You have a very small view of socialism which starts and ends with USSR and Cuba, and you missed the point that socialism and communism ARE NOT THE SAME THING. Tell me how public education is anything but a social program, or hurts a country by allowing the less fortunate to get and education to better themselves. Capitalism sure as hell does not do this. I guess countries such as Finland and Sweden are such a horrible place with their horrible social programs.

Again, you must have a combination of Capitalism and Socialist policies to run a proper government. Because while Capitalism is a good system, it does not answer many problems, so you need social programs to provide where it fails. How is that a crazy leftist policy?
I sincerely apologize for my bonehead absense of my source website but in my defense:

I read it, it sounded eerily similiar to the definition I had memorized in Poly Sci 301 and snagged it happy to not need drudging through crap like that which is just a different way to say the same thing. You and your flock are very tiresome but I cannot sleep knowing their is misinformation needing to be kicked to the curb.

kiss-ass
 

dontexist21

Well-Known Member
I sincerely apologize for my bonehead absense of my source website but in my defense:

I read it, it sounded eerily similiar to the definition I had memorized in Poly Sci 301 and snagged it happy to not need drudging through crap like that which is just a different way to say the same thing. You and your flock are very tiresome but I cannot sleep knowing their is misinformation needing to be kicked to the curb.

kiss-ass
So what do you define a government giving out food stamps or medicare? What misinformation have I given out tell me ONE thing that is false. Again I do NOT FUCKING DEFINE SOCIALISM BY KARL MARX. Your Poly class might have forgotten to mention the ideals have been around long before him. What do you define a collective society building a road which they all own?

Neither you or Kynes has defined what it is, it is not a Capatilistic system, so what is it?

Congrats you took one low level polictical science class I should shut up now since not like I have not written papers on Soviet Russia. If I was you I would pick up a book on a littel country known as Norway, which practices socialist capitalism, yeah it exist, crazy huh, get out of the 1960s cold war is over. But I guess they don't teach that till 401.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
So what do you define a government giving out food stamps or medicare? What misinformation have I given out tell me ONE thing that is false. Again I do NOT FUCKING DEFINE SOCIALISM BY KARL MARX. Your Poly class might have forgotten to mention the ideals have been around long before him. What do you define a collective society building a road which they all own?

Neither you or Kynes has defined what it is, it is not a Capatilistic system, so what is it?

Congrats you took one low level polictical science class I should shut up now since not like I have not written papers on Soviet Russia. If I was you I would pick up a book on a littel country known as Norway, which practices socialist capitalism, yeah it exist, crazy huh, get out of the 1960s cold war is over. But I guess they don't teach that till 401.
your answer again... Public Works are Social, Not Socialist! The two are not synonymous!

Shit Bro, i have defined socialism repeatedly, as well as communism and capitalism all in this damned thread, including easy to understand REAL WORLD examples. the road project you keep bringign up, as well as all other public works from the first bramble kraal around the first two hut village, to keep out lions, through the pyramids of Egypt, the Great Wall of a Thousand Li in china, all the way up to the Apollo Program and beyond are NOT socialist programs, most of them are not even social programs. They fall under the category of public works, capital improvements, or co-operative construction. Like an Amish barn raising, even though the community helps build the barn, it belongs to the family it is built for, with the expectation that when needed they will assist another family in raising their barn. Every act of co-operation in history is not a socialist experiment. shouting about how smart you are and then failing to understand the simple easy and sometimes special-ed level examples of what is and is not socialism is your issue not mine. Words have meaning. using the wrong word (socialist) to describe public works in general and road construction in specific is not the sign of a well rounded education.

also, norway describes itself as "Democratic Socialist" not socialist capitalist. Calm down, release your rage, if you take nothing else away from this exchange understand this:

Just because a college professor said it, that doesnt make it true!! for most of thee 19th, and a good portion of the 20th century it was accepted science that blacks asians jews and hispanics were intellectually inferior to white europeans. They were born less intelligent, and were less able to be educated. this was taught in universities all over the western world, including Harvard Princeton and Yale. If everything I heard in school is true then Reefer Madness is a documentary.
 

dontexist21

Well-Known Member
Social is econimic system again under what ECONOMIC system is it defined under? Yes but when we build a road all citizens own it so yes there is a clear difference in your argument, then a Amish barn raising. One citizen does not decide to build a road, and everyone helps build that road, and that one citizen does no then own that road. So that example kinda missed the point of WE ALL OWN THE ROAD.
Here are some difinitions of social:
pertaining to, devoted to, or characterized by friendly companionship or relations: a social club.
2. seeking or enjoying the companionship of others; friendly; sociable; gregarious.

3. of, pertaining to, connected with, or suited to polite or fashionable society: a social event.

4. living or disposed to live in companionship with others or in a community, rather than in isolation: People are social beings.

5. of or pertaining to human society, especially as a body divided into classes according to status: social rank.

see how none of them are economic theories. Now under which ECONOMIC SYSTEM do you define it as?




And I never took a poly sci class, I like to read. I perfer to spend my education money on things that teach me useful things, like how to cure cancer.

Any even if Norway describes it self as Democratic Socialist, they still practice capatilism yet have socialist programs. So pretty much what I said.

Using Social to describe a economic system which it is not does not sound like a well rounded education.
 

dontexist21

Well-Known Member
Trust me just because I did not grow up in a age where socialism was akin to the plague does not mean I do not have a well rounded education. I have read plenty about it and understand how to separate how it was practiced in Russia and how some of the ideals, not all, have been integrated into many capitalistic governments. Capatilism rules the world, no question, but to say as a economic system it meets all the requirements to provide for a healthy economic enviroment is insane. There have been many areas where it florished i.e. Google and many where it has failed i.e. ENRON. Does capatilism answer how to solve deliver and education to poor children. Under that system the kids are to fend for themselves since they could not pay for it. And the reality is most people will not help. Now it takes a Government agency to take money from one group, i.e. citizens, and give it to another poor children to help them with better social mobility. The ONLY ECONOMIC SYSTEM that even comes close to defining this is socialism, if if you have a better econimic definition I would like to hear it, but sorry Social is not a economic system.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
Social is econimic system again under what ECONOMIC system is it defined under? Yes but when we build a road all citizens own it so yes there is a clear difference in your argument, then a Amish barn raising. One citizen does not decide to build a road, and everyone helps build that road, and that one citizen does no then own that road. So that example kinda missed the point of WE ALL OWN THE ROAD.
Here are some difinitions of social:
pertaining to, devoted to, or characterized by friendly companionship or relations: a social club.
2. seeking or enjoying the companionship of others; friendly; sociable; gregarious.

3. of, pertaining to, connected with, or suited to polite or fashionable society: a social event.

4. living or disposed to live in companionship with others or in a community, rather than in isolation: People are social beings.

5. of or pertaining to human society, especially as a body divided into classes according to status: social rank.

see how none of them are economic theories. Now under which ECONOMIC SYSTEM do you define it as?




And I never took a poly sci class, I like to read. I perfer to spend my education money on things that teach me useful things, like how to cure cancer.

Any even if Norway describes it self as Democratic Socialist, they still practice capatilism yet have socialist programs. So pretty much what I said.

Using Social to describe a economic system which it is not does not sound like a well rounded education.


Now i see the problem. every human activity does not pertain to economic, or political science theories. In fact social endeavours usually have nothing to do with politics, or economics. Painting a picture is not commerce, but selling it or buying it is. Looking at a painting is not commerce, but buying a ticket to a museum is. The museum itself is usually NOT a commercial endeavour, but they do use the commerce of ticket sales to finance operations acquisitions and outreach. Many museums are not even owned or funded by the government, many are privately owned and operated. There are even private libraries (some nonprofit and some commercial) which are open to the public, but receive no government funding. Sometimes a road is just a road.

Most things serve many purposes, some quite contradictory. For example, a gun. to the gunsmith, it is commerce, to the soldier it is military, to the homeowner it is security, to the hunter it is food, to the collector it is entertainment, and to the liberal legislator, it is crime. Each is correct but only in context. In your context a road could be considered a socialist project, but only in a very narrow and distorted way. Treated that way, EVERYTHING falls under socialist economic theory, and every action by any government could be labeled as a socialist project. it just doesnt work that way. Thats part of the confusion over socialism, communism and capitalism as theories. Every adherent to each theory can twist and distort every criticism and concern about his personal ideology, deflecting it all with the (yes here it is again) "No True Scotsman Fallacy"" wherein, any critique is rejected because it wasnt REALLY FOR TRUE SHO-NUFF fill in the blank.
Heres a few i have heard in my political science classes for the last 20 years...

North Korea not REALLY socialist, they are a dictatorship
Fascist Italy Not REALLY socialist, they were fascists
Nazi Germany not REALLY socialist, they were "right wing extremists"
People's Republic of China not REALLY socialist, they were Maoists!
Cuba not REALLY socialists, they are Communists
Cuba again... Not REALLY Communists, they are Socialists!
USA not REALLY capitalist, they are plutocratic oligarchs
USA not Really a Republic, we is a Democracy
USA not REALLY a Democracy, we are a Federalist Union of Commonwealths]

It just goes on, and each one claimed they were absolutely correct, and would regurgitate endless news articles, scholarly papers and opinion polls to back it up. (Protip: some of these are both right and wrong , for example, North Korea is a Socialist Dictatorship which is not synonymous with, but is indistinguishable from, a monarchy)

Economics pertains only to economies and their constituent parts, which includes transportation networks, but transportation networks are not and exclusively an economic activity. They only fall into "economics" when they are used for commerce.

roads are used to deliver goods and customers to a market, but they are not part of the market. some markets are accessed exclusively by river, or oceangoing vessels. the river is not part of an economic theory, nor is the ocean, only the market related activities which take place on them is economic. Roads also function as conduits for social interaction, and even military strategy and transport.

Constructing and maintaining a road is important to economic development, but in many rural areas, roads more important as social instruments. Many are built not by the government, but by the people reached by the road, and they are maintained by the individuals whose land they cross. this is called an Easement. Once you get past the area served by federal highways, and state and county roads, easements are pretty much all you find. These roads can be simple dirt tracks, gravel bedded roads or paved throughways, but they are still owned by, and maintained by the land owner, and they do NOT charge people for using them. These rural private roads allow access to the highway system for commerce (taking crops to markets, and conveying purchased goods home) but also serve to facilitate travel (visiting relatives, mail delivery, goin into town fer some ruckus etc...) as well as social interaction between neighbors. They almost always cross the property of several land-owners, and each landowner maintains his own stretch of road. some rural easements serve no commercial purpose at all, and are entirely recreational, leading to popular fishing holes or public river or lake access, or in some rare cases, they are purely ornamental Seriously, a guy once paid me $100 bucks to roll a tractor over and over a short stretch of grass running up to an old barn, to create a dirt two-rut so it would "look more rustic". Other side of the barn had a paved drive. City folks is crazy. The resulting 50 feet of road served no purpose but decoration. Me gettin' paid was commerce though, but it sure wasn't socialism. The Doc don't do shit without that cheddar, homey.


I hope this clears it up.
 

dontexist21

Well-Known Member
Yet again we disagree, economics pretty much covers all social programs on some level. Creation of a public school is creation of a service. Since it is a service it falls under a economic system, I know what I will call it. I just want to know what you do?
 

MellowFarmer

Well-Known Member
So what do you define a government giving out food stamps or medicare? What misinformation have I given out tell me ONE thing that is false. Again I do NOT FUCKING DEFINE SOCIALISM BY KARL MARX. Your Poly class might have forgotten to mention the ideals have been around long before him. What do you define a collective society building a road which they all own?

Neither you or Kynes has defined what it is, it is not a Capatilistic system, so what is it?

Congrats you took one low level polictical science class I should shut up now since not like I have not written papers on Soviet Russia. If I was you I would pick up a book on a littel country known as Norway, which practices socialist capitalism, yeah it exist, crazy huh, get out of the 1960s cold war is over. But I guess they don't teach that till 401.
I am an unashamed geek who has been gobbling up all the Soc and Poly Sci classes I can find since my escape from my Corporate Masters 7 years ago and I'm all out of low level, mid level and Advanced classes. My only goal in this round of Life is collect all the knowledge and wisdom I can and I like passing it on in an insane attempt to change the world around me for the better, and yes Selfishly, I find it hard to maintain when challanged by hard earned ignorance.


Shut the Fuck up and Listen. You may just learn something.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
You know you're having a great and intelligent argument when you're debating definitions.
Whatcha gonna do. I forget who said it, but whoever controls the language controls the debate.

Thats why political "science" so often turns into a pissing match. Rarely do mathematicians get into a punch-up over how many decimal places are needed to adequately express Pi

Until Socialism Communism Marxism Maoism Stalinism Nazism Fascism Capitalism Monarchy Oligarchy Plutocracy Democracy and Republic are properly defined, its just a whole lotta assholes calling each other idiots.

every one of those words means something different to everybody who hears them, and each is laden with emotional and ideological baggage. Shit, bout half of those words will start a fistfight in the street in Berkley

I always hold true, when you want to know what a thing stands for, read the words of it's most important figures. For Socialism and communism, that's Engle, Marx Trotsky Stalin Lenin Mao Mussolini and Hitler in that order. (in before Mussolini and Hitler weren't REAL FOR TRUE Socialist... Yeah, actually they were. Facts is facts. and the truth can be a hard saddle to sit. Course there's always Pol Pot. y'all like him better? didn't think so.)

Course theres also the wishy washy blow with the wind, fair weather commies too, like Deng Xiao Ping, (Tienanmen Square) or Fidel Castro (castro is actually a shitty Communist, and a disgrace to Socialists everywhere, Che Guevara was a true believer though)

Here in the States, Saul Alinsky and Bill Ayers are both noted socialists, and can really give you a flavour for what socialism is REALLY about.
 

InCognition

Active Member
Like the government fixing your roads, that's a form of socialism
Like the idea of public education, that's a form of socialism
Like government cleaning your water, that's a form of socialism
Like the government investing in medicine, that's a form of socialism.

Get over it socialism has been in our system, and every other prospering 21st government. Capitalism purely WILL NOT WORK. It does not take care of everything. If you want a society where its members are able to be up word mobile you need certain social programs to allow for this. Would you rather have a child born to poor parents no fault of their own be able to study work hard and gain their piece of the American pie, or rob you and YOU will pay for them to go to jail and give no benefit to society. Taxes are not stealing from you, you are paying the government so that they can do things such as fix infrastructure and take up the slack where private enterprise does not work. Get over it. It does not work all of the time, but guess what people do not vote, so politician do what they want. Everyone points the finger at the politician, yet it is the people who let them get away with it.

And the clarify, my family has owned their own business and I am working to start my very own, so I believe in Capitalism, just know it is not the answer for everything.
Some of those forms of socialism are also forms of capitalism. They are both intertwined.

Private companies fix roads all over this country.
Private schools are abundant, and they educate.
Private companies clean water.
Private medicine companies are abundant.

What's your point? If you think state or government run entities are the only answer to the above, not only are you incorrect on the premise that it's the only answer, but you're also wrong because privatized companies, of all the above, currently exist.

Socialism has a track record of increasing fraud and lowering quality, which in return raises costs. If you don't acknowledge the truth in that fact, it's simply denial.

Your whole point on a child being born into poverty, is moot. It's no one's job to ensure that a child is born into a life where they are "fairly" funded, other than the child's parents. If the child's parents can't do that job, well tough luck. Inferring the idea that others should be taxed, based on another human's irresponsibility or lack of luck, is a disgusting and ignorant train of thought, whether you realize it or not.

When there is no penalty to one's behavior, they tend not to care on how to behave. It's a simple concept. Socialistic programs and theories breed irresponsibility, and you only have to look in your back yard to see that.

The irresponsible used to die, now we just give them someone else's resources via force. Good idea? No. Fair? No. Crazy? Yes.

You simply cannot justify "fairness" with "unfairness". It's hypocrisy.
 
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