Help me understand Dolomite lime!

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
I am new to organics and been at it since last may. I have been using dolomite without much of a problem. However, I have been reading on here that many will use more gypsum than dolomite? Honestly, I have gypsum but have not really been using it. It makes me feel slow in the head to see other people use it more than dolomite! I am not the dumbest guy around but I can be a real contender at times!!!
My soil amendments are pretty simple. Espoma's bio-tone, Dolomite lime, bat guano, and Worm castings. It is still a work in progress, but this alone has been working very well.
Espoma seems to be a little hot, but I have been making some teas that seem to work very well!
 

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
I am new to organics and been at it since last may. I have been using dolomite without much of a problem. However, I have been reading on here that many will use more gypsum than dolomite? Honestly, I have gypsum but have not really been using it. It makes me feel slow in the head to see other people use it more than dolomite! I am not the dumbest guy around but I can be a real contender at times!!!
My soil amendments are pretty simple. Espoma's bio-tone, Dolomite lime, bat guano, and Worm castings. It is still a work in progress, but this alone has been working very well.
Espoma seems to be a little hot, but I have been making some teas that seem to work very well!
personally I don't use lime at all, I use a mixture of other amendments/nutrients that will counter the peats natural acidity over time.
I think once you try a soil based with crab, neem, kelp, fish bone and alfalfa meals you won't go back to the other stuff. You will see a difference.
 

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
its full of calcium and little magnesium, its changes ph. it takes over a year to break down and be of any use. So not worth using imo. There's much better options. Like oyster shell flour, gypsum powder, crab meal, shrimp meal, rock dust.
amen there, I LOVE that nutrients that we use are "multi-purpose" like crab meal for example, not only is it a great addition to combat ph issues but it has chitin and a great even amount of NPK as well, neem meal is another example, it's awesome as an IPM but loaded with micros and again is a great even NPK also.
kelp meal is another one, so good in sooo many ways.
Oyster flour, oyster shells, crab meal, biochar, are much better options to control peats acidity
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
personally I don't use lime at all, I use a mixture of other amendments/nutrients that will counter the peats natural acidity over time.
I think once you try a soil based with crab, neem, kelp, fish bone and alfalfa meals you won't go back to the other stuff. You will see a difference.
It looks like you use peat as a base, is there any coco coir in there?
It looks like it is time for me to start over with my soil. I am not in a position to do it right now, but I like to make plans before I start buying stuff. I guess that dolomite is for the yard lol! Maybe a outdoor veggie garden.
Thank you both for the replies!

I am looking into going to college for agriculture soon, but that dont mean that I know anything right now. It would be nice to have a clue!!!
 

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
It looks like you use peat as a base, is there any coco coir in there?
It looks like it is time for me to start over with my soil. I am not in a position to do it right now, but I like to make plans before I start buying stuff. I guess that dolomite is for the yard lol! Maybe a outdoor veggie garden.
Thank you both for the replies!

I am looking into going to college for agriculture soon, but that dont mean that I know anything right now. It would be nice to have a clue!!!
Naw, no coco, although I use shredded coco for my cloning, but not in my mix, I tried to use coco and for some reason my yields were off, everything else appeared to be ok, but I yielded about 80% of what I normally do, and that was two harvests, so I went back to my peat based mix, I think another organic grower here had the same problem I remember talking to him about it, I want to say it was @stowanangro could be wrong though, but he had the same experience, no visible problems, just smaller flowers.
I do know of people that use coco and I know of people that use the dolomite lime too, just personally I don't.
And don't worry man, i'm on my seventh or eighth different soil recipe... hell maybe even more than that.
It's like dating, eventually you figure out what you like/want and then it's easier to be more specific.
I say the same thing to everyone though, I don't think i'll EVER change from my current recipe, absolutely PERFECT, and the results are very satisfactory.
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
I searched for Oyster flour and alfalfa meal. I found a lot of worm farmers advertising this. Is this better after being composted by worms?
I finally have a healthy worm bin after a f'ing it up a few times!
I think that we have talked about this before, but my worm bin was awful when I first started and I have learned a little since then.
 

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
I searched for Oyster flour and alfalfa meal. I found a lot of worm farmers advertising this. Is this better after being composted by worms?
I finally have a healthy worm bin after a f'ing it up a few times!
I think that we have talked about this before, but my worm bin was awful when I first started and I have learned a little since then.
you know, it's funny you mentioned that, I just read in a different thread a pdf linked by @Pattahabi and it was on rabbit manure and the composting process and such, and they actually had scientific proof that the NPK values of rabbit manure actually increased (significantly too) after it was composted.
not sure how, but that what it said.
So I always thought/ASSumed that the composting procedure would lessen the NPK value, as I speculated that the breakdown process would rob some of its value, but I was completely 100% incorrect.
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
you know, it's funny you mentioned that, I just read in a different thread a pdf linked by @Pattahabi and it was on rabbit manure and the composting process and such, and they actually had scientific proof that the NPK values of rabbit manure actually increased (significantly too) after it was composted.
not sure how, but that what it said.
So I always thought/ASSumed that the composting procedure would lessen the NPK value, as I speculated that the breakdown process would rob some of its value, but I was completely 100% incorrect.
I might use your soil recipe, if you dont care. Do you just start with a cheap bag of peat? like a $5 bag? That would be awesome! It would pay for its self.

I was looking at some old Ford 302 tractors, I wonder how one of my 5.0's would fit? At least a set of heads. Just talking now.
 

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
I might use your soil recipe, if you dont care. Do you just start with a cheap bag of peat? like a $5 bag? That would be awesome! It would pay for its self.

I was looking at some old Ford 302 tractors, I wonder how one of my 5.0's would fit? At least a set of heads. Just talking now.
ah hah! now we are talking, a nice SFI crate engine out of those new shelbys... Whoa man, talk about traction issues, ya'd need to throw a bunch of sandbags in the back to go anywhere! Those 625 hp 5.0 liters..
Ah.. anyways.
my recipe.
it's a lil difficult to give the EXACT recipe, reason being is much of it is recycled vermifire, but I can tell you my amendments and the ratios of that which will help you get on the right path.
first if you are making from scratch stick to the 33/33/33 mix.
33% compost/vermicompost (homemade if possible) I like a 50/50 mix of both leaf compost and EWC
33% aeration
33% peat
the per cubic foot (about 7.5 gallons)
add one cup of the following
neem meal, kelp meal, crab meal.
then per cubic foot add HALF cup
insect meal (mashed up dried insect chicken feed)
alfalfa meal
fish bone meal
that's all for the nutes
then the minerals
3-4 cups per cubic foot, I like a mix of different minerals, if you are re-using your soil maybe avoid azomite.
must have one cup of oyster flour per cubic foot to control peats acidity rock phosphates, gypsum, basalt, granite, (although it can be radioactive.....) greensand or langbeinite if you are re-using your soil, but don't expect much from them at first
that's all the normal shit.
it's in my amendments where the difference is maybe the insect meal too), biochar, pumice, volcanic rock, and rotten tree log chunks are what I use.
of the 33% aeration I go 50% of that as standard conventional aeration, volcanic rock or pumice, then 25% biochar and 25% rotten wood chunks.... in fact i'm pretty sure I have more than 33% aeration in my mix if you account for all the rotten wood chunk, but damn, I tell ya my plants LOVE this mix, and it retains the PERFECT amount of water.
if you have any doubt add more aeration, never hurts, especially if it's biochar or rotten wood.
on top of all that add a cup of oyster shells (again chicken feed area) per cubic foot
---maybe i'm a bit of a dork, but the soil with all the wood chunks, biochar, volcanic rock and oyster shells? Looks mighty purty fellas
 
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MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
ah hah! now we are talking, a nice SFI crate engine out of those new shelbys... Whoa man, talk about traction issues, ya'd need to throw a bunch of sandbags in the back to go anywhere! Those 625 hp 5.0 liters..
Ah.. anyways.
my recipe.
it's a lil difficult to give the EXACT recipe, reason being is much of it is recycled vermifire, but I can tell you my amendments and the ratios of that which will help you get on the right path.
first if you are making from scratch stick to the 33/33/33 mix.
33% compost/vermicompost (homemade if possible) I like a 50/50 mix of both leaf compost and EWC
33% aeration
33% peat
the per cubic foot (about 7.5 gallons)
add one cup of the following
neem meal, kelp meal, crab meal.
then per cubic foot add HALF cup
insect meal (mashed up dried insect chicken feed)
alfalfa meal
fish bone meal
that's all for the nutes
then the minerals
3-4 cups per cubic foot, I like a mix of different minerals, if you are re-using your soil maybe avoid azomite.
must have one cup of oyster flour per cubic foot to control peats acidity rock phosphates, gypsum, basalt, granite, (although it can be radioactive.....) greensand or langbeinite if you are re-using your soil, but don't expect much from them at first
that's all the normal shit.
it's in my amendments where the difference is maybe the insect meal too), biochar, pumice, volcanic rock, and rotten tree log chunks are what I use.
of the 33% aeration I go 50% of that as standard conventional aeration, volcanic rock or pumice, then 25% biochar and 25% rotten wood chunks.... in fact i'm pretty sure I have more than 33% aeration in my mix if you account for all the rotten wood chunk, but damn, I tell ya my plants LOVE this mix, and it retains the PERFECT amount of water.
if you have any doubt add more aeration, never hurts, especially if it's biochar or rotten wood.
on top of all that add a cup of oyster shells (again chicken feed area) per cubic foot
---maybe i'm a bit of a dork, but the soil with all the wood chunks, biochar, volcanic rock and oyster shells? Looks mighty purty fellas
That is a lot to take in, but I will probably save this page in my toolbar. I was looking at making three to four 35gal totes and store them for a few weeks... I read the no till method, but I am still pretty new to this.
Could I use the cheap peat that is like $5 a bale or stick with the $20 bags? The local hydro store wants $30 for premium soil!

The rotten wood? Are you talking about the stuff that crumbles in your hands??? The stuff that has all the mycelium fungi? I think that I understand. I have mostly oak around here and a few hickory. What kind of tree do you look for? I live in the woods by the way, I come across this stuff all the time looking for firewood! It looks yellow around here.
How much of this do you buy online? I would like to get most of it from the same place. I am boycotting my local hydro store and I stumbled into a landscaping store that is much more reasonable. They had a few things like rock phosphate and $20 FFoF, but not much more that was on your list. I might have to do most of my shopping online.
 

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
That is a lot to take in, but I will probably save this page in my toolbar. I was looking at making three to four 35gal totes and store them for a few weeks... I read the no till method, but I am still pretty new to this.
Could I use the cheap peat that is like $5 a bale or stick with the $20 bags? The local hydro store wants $30 for premium soil!

The rotten wood? Are you talking about the stuff that crumbles in your hands??? The stuff that has all the mycelium fungi? I think that I understand. I have mostly oak around here and a few hickory. What kind of tree do you look for? I live in the woods by the way, I come across this stuff all the time looking for firewood! It looks yellow around here.
How much of this do you buy online? I would like to get most of it from the same place. I am boycotting my local hydro store and I stumbled into a landscaping store that is much more reasonable. They had a few things like rock phosphate and $20 FFoF, but not much more that was on your list. I might have to do most of my shopping online.
Insect meal? Did you say that was chicken feed? I have a feed store down the street, haha it is closer than any other store really!
Yeah the rotten wood that crumbles in your hand is perfect, and I have used oak and redwood, but redwood mostly, I don't look at it like it's redwood anymore though, more like a soil conditioner, its been rotting for a long time.
If you want it a lil easier you can buy a bale of promix, that'll cover your peat and some of your aeration, from there you could just add biochar and rotten wood
And yeah, the insect meal is chicken feed, you'll see a big plastic tub of cricket and mealworms. it's sorta expensive ($15-20) but in my mind it's worth it, You also gotta mash em up too, and that's a bitch, I used two weight plates, for working out, a 22 lb (10kg) one and a 11 lb (5kg) one, from there I just mashed em up to a powder and then put it back in the bucket, kinda sucks the bucket even FULL of the insects mashes down to like a quarter full. I'd say you'd get probably 5-6 cups full, for lets say 15 bucks.
So depending on how much you want to use, either a half or a full cup, per cubic foot. You'll get enough for about 90 gallons at the rate that I use it, you could totally use it for a bigger portion of your nutrients but then you'd only get 45 gallons worth if you use it at a full cup per cubic foot.
It's not water soluble (very much anyways) so I expect it to last at least two harvests worth, after all that's only 6-7 months.
------- keep in mind I DO NOT know what the NPK rating of the insect meal is, I normally don't care a whole lot about that as almost all of the nuttrients I have are slow release, but I imagine the rating to be sorta high, in nitrogen and phosphorus if I were to guess.
Totally a guess though.
So it breaks down to be a lil more on the expensive side of nutrients really, and i'm positive you could go without it, but I personally won't go without it, this run i'm having much less problems with mites, and with our warm weather I normally have problems, no matter what I do, so im thinking my soil recipe and IPMs are the reason why.
or that's what i'm tellin myself, so I feel cooler.
neem meal, crab meal, and insect meal work well for that.
The only thing i'm curious about is maybe in the future i'll do a small controlled batch of soil, I want to buy some karanja meal and cut my neem down to a half cup and my karanja to a half cup, I've read that mixing them apparently may have additional advantages. In regards to pest management anyways.
Plus neem meal stinks.
If you can, maybe age your soil in 35 gallon smartpots, or bigger I think that's a better way to age the soil, no chance for anaerobic condition there, but they're a bitch to move..
Age them with your vermicompost and everything in there, let them all make a nice little symbiotic family. I don't screen my vermicompost, I throw a double handful of worms, cocoons, and castings all in a double handful per 12 or 15 gallon smartpot. This is in addition to the normal percentage of EWC I have in my soil, but that EWC is screened.
 
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MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
While researching rotten wood, I came across a method called "Hugelkultur ". You use whole trees and stack them in a pile and put soil on top. It is supposed to provide for 30yrs...
I am just getting into it, but I do have plenty of small trees that I can use. I have been busy this week, I got 20 railroad ties for garden beds. Plus, my dad bought a wood chipper this week. He lives around the corner from me, so we are going to share it!
So, I have started my Hugelkultur bed. I am only on the computer because it is raining. Here is a link:

http://www.richsoil.com/hugelkultur/
 

Dave's Not Here

Well-Known Member
While researching rotten wood, I came across a method called "Hugelkultur ". You use whole trees and stack them in a pile and put soil on top. It is supposed to provide for 30yrs...
I am just getting into it, but I do have plenty of small trees that I can use. I have been busy this week, I got 20 railroad ties for garden beds. Plus, my dad bought a wood chipper this week. He lives around the corner from me, so we are going to share it!
So, I have started my Hugelkultur bed. I am only on the computer because it is raining. Here is a link:

http://www.richsoil.com/hugelkultur/
I've seen the hugelkultur stuff a little before, so when I built a couple raised beds last year, this is what I filled them with, I wanted to spend as little money as possible...

bottom layer - branches, sticks, twigs
middle layer - mostly to partially composted leaf and grass compost from my pile
top layer - cheap bagged top soil, some cheap bagged mushroom compost and humus

Oh and I did add some dolomite lime as well... and usually add say half a solo cup of it to the holes I dig for my tomatoes.

Everything I've grown in the beds so far has turned out awesome with no fertilization.
 

calicocalyx

Well-Known Member
its full of calcium and little magnesium, its changes ph. it takes over a year to break down and be of any use. So not worth using imo. There's much better options. Like oyster shell flour, gypsum powder, crab meal, shrimp meal, rock dust.
A year? So that means all the bagged dirt that has it in it has been aged that long? Something tells me it's all about the conditions necessary to break it down influences the length of time it takes. I think I read somewhere about the acidity of the soil has a bearing on how quick it breaks down. Not sure tho, just curious as to why it's used so much if it takes so long.
 

Nullis

Moderator
^ Lime does not take anywhere near a year to break down\dissolve (although it may potentially last several months) and yes, acidity determines (in part) how fast it will dissolve. What matters more than anything is particle size. Micronized lime, which is ground up very fine, will neutralize acidity virtually instantaneously. Materials like calcium carbonate are not very water soluble. Acids attack (dissolve) carbonates, liberating whatever minerals the carbonate happens to be attached to (usually calcium, which goes into solution or is held by cation exchange) and forming carbon dioxide and water. The reaction, while slow, does not take years or even months to begin happening.

You can take a crushed egg shell, throw it in a cup of vinegar and the shell is not going to take a month to dissolve/react with the vinegar (yielding calcium acetate).

Dolomite lime (pure) is relatively rare and would contain virtually equal parts calcium and magnesium, because it's a double carbonate salt of calcium\magnesium (Ca and Mg ions alternating in the crystal lattice). Much more common is dolomitic limestone which is a limestone that contains some amount of magnesium (usually 6-12%).

Gypsum is calcium sulfate and doesn't appreciably affect soil pH.
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
ah hah! now we are talking, a nice SFI crate engine out of those new shelbys... Whoa man, talk about traction issues, ya'd need to throw a bunch of sandbags in the back to go anywhere! Those 625 hp 5.0 liters..
Ah.. anyways.
my recipe.
it's a lil difficult to give the EXACT recipe, reason being is much of it is recycled vermifire, but I can tell you my amendments and the ratios of that which will help you get on the right path.
first if you are making from scratch stick to the 33/33/33 mix.
33% compost/vermicompost (homemade if possible) I like a 50/50 mix of both leaf compost and EWC
33% aeration
33% peat
the per cubic foot (about 7.5 gallons)
add one cup of the following
neem meal, kelp meal, crab meal.
then per cubic foot add HALF cup
insect meal (mashed up dried insect chicken feed)
alfalfa meal
fish bone meal
that's all for the nutes
then the minerals
3-4 cups per cubic foot, I like a mix of different minerals, if you are re-using your soil maybe avoid azomite.
must have one cup of oyster flour per cubic foot to control peats acidity rock phosphates, gypsum, basalt, granite, (although it can be radioactive.....) greensand or langbeinite if you are re-using your soil, but don't expect much from them at first
that's all the normal shit.
it's in my amendments where the difference is maybe the insect meal too), biochar, pumice, volcanic rock, and rotten tree log chunks are what I use.
of the 33% aeration I go 50% of that as standard conventional aeration, volcanic rock or pumice, then 25% biochar and 25% rotten wood chunks.... in fact i'm pretty sure I have more than 33% aeration in my mix if you account for all the rotten wood chunk, but damn, I tell ya my plants LOVE this mix, and it retains the PERFECT amount of water.
if you have any doubt add more aeration, never hurts, especially if it's biochar or rotten wood.
on top of all that add a cup of oyster shells (again chicken feed area) per cubic foot
---maybe i'm a bit of a dork, but the soil with all the wood chunks, biochar, volcanic rock and oyster shells? Looks mighty purty fellas
I am getting a really bad "fade to yellow" on week 6. I am ready to change my soil now! I will probably use my current soil to fill in bare spots on my lawn lol.
I think that I have the wood material covered, biochar and rotten wood. I can probably get most of your list from the organic store. They carry Sunlight supply and Hydrofarm. They told me "if it is in the sales magazine, they can order it". They did not really have anything but greensand from your list... I am going to follow your instuctions as closely as I can. I am going to be asking questions, but I will try not to bore you!

I am going to start collecting everything by next week. If I have to order online it will probably take longer. I have not seen your soil anywhere "vermifire", but I think that I can get most anything else. There is a landscape store close that carries Foxfarm Ocean forrest for a decent price.
 
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