Heisenbeans Genetics

Status
Not open for further replies.
Heisenbeans

Heisenbeans

Well-Known Member
HydroRed said:
You keep mentioning "cross" when there is no cross unless you are introducing another plant (mom,sister,brother, etc). A selfed GG4 S1, selfed again, then selfed again, then selfed again is still just a GG4 S1. The only time you are "crossing" anything is when another plant not from that S1 generation is introduced. I wont argue the F1 statements because honestly im still learning, but were not talking F1's. I see what you are getting at with not calling something a "GG4 S1" if it is a selfed S1 (the semantics Cob was referring to), but thats exactly what it is until you introduce another plant not from that S1 generation.
I copied this from the web.....

SELFING
Selfing is when a mother plant is pollinated by herself. Breeders use special chemicals on female plants to induce stress, which results in the plants producing male flowers, which produce pollen. When this pollen in used on the female flowers of the same plant or a clone from the same mother, the resulting seeds will be “selfed” or coined as S1. When the S1 seeds are backcrossed with the original parent, they’re called S2, S3, and so on. Breeders often do this to preserve the genetics of the strain, and to feminize the seeds.
Click to expand...
Lol alright man your right. All gg4 s1s are just gg4 s1s so what's the point in keeping up with actual real gg4 clone when all s1s are created equal. Makes absolutely no sense to call seeds from a s1 of an S1 S1s. That's silly as hell.
I realize what you are saying but s1s of and S1 cannot be a S1 because they are second generation plants that came from an S1 pollination. Nothing about them is S1 of the original mom. They would need to renamed but if you called them GG4 S1 and than made S1s of them you cant call them S1s. I dont see why this is so difficult.
 
Heisenbeans

Heisenbeans

Well-Known Member
jayblaze710 said:
Ok. First of all, a lot of the “breeding terms” used in the cannabis seed game are made up. Outside of filial generations and backcrosses (F1, F2, bx), these terms aren’t used by real geneticists. For example, incross, is not a real genetics term, but breeders use it all the time for all kinds of different crosses.

Side note - I’ve seen a lot of people, particularly on icmag, say that you need to understand Mendelian genetics to be a good breeder. No you don’t. Mendelian genetics is only useful for discrete traits that are controlled by a few loci. Almost every relevant trait in cannabis is a quantitative trait. Mendelian genetics is not useful in those situations. Good breeding is about good selections and nothing else.

The most important thing is having a standardized nomenclature that is consistent so other people understand what you are referring to. S1 is a first generation selfed plant. The original clone was selfed. Those offspring are S1’s. If an S1 is selfed again, it’s called an S2. The second number is used to represent how many generations of selfing has occurred between these offspring and the original clone. Heisen is right. That is how the terms are used, and it should remain that way or else things will get confusing.

The alternative is saying something ridiculous like “s1 of a gg4 s1” or “gg4 s1 s1”.

Is there any benefit to searching further down selfed generations? I would argue not. Each generation, the plants become further and further inbred. Inbreeding depression can ramp up very quickly.
Click to expand...
Thank you for explaining this better than I could.
 
Heisenbeans

Heisenbeans

Well-Known Member
HydroRed said:
Heres the scenario. I gifted Cob some GG4 S1's from a friends grow. My friend got the cut from me so the S1's are from a legit GG4 cut that threw pollen. If Cob plants those 6 seeds and grows them up, then selfed one of those 6 seeds....those resulting seeds are still going to be GG4 S1's. Will there be variation....absolutely.

Maybe if it were an open pollination, but if you just keep selfing an S1, its still going to be just an S1
Click to expand...
Technically all selfed seeds are s1s yes but to keep up with the lineage and let people know what he has he cannot call them GG4 s1s because he does not pollinate the original glue mom. He used s1s of the original mom.
 
J

jayblaze710

Well-Known Member
HydroRed said:
Heres the scenario. I gifted Cob some GG4 S1's from a friends grow. My friend got the cut from me so the S1's are from a legit GG4 cut that threw pollen. If Cob plants those 6 seeds and grows them up, then selfed one of those 6 seeds....those resulting seeds are still going to be GG4 S1's. Will there be variation....absolutely.

Maybe if it were an open pollination, but if you just keep selfing an S1, its still going to be just an S1
Click to expand...
Yeah, they’re still S1’s. But they’re S1’s of a GG4 S1, not S1’s of GG4. That extra generation of selfing does make a difference.

Every time a plant is selfed, half of the heterozygous sites become homozygous. If the goal is to remain as close to the original clone as possible, each generation is taking it further and further away from it. Even if the plants are being selfed.
 
CannaBruh

CannaBruh

Well-Known Member
What do you call the progeny of my two gg4 S1 'sister' where I then used one to pollinate the other?

This is not an F2, and calling it S2 at this point conflates the nomenclature when we say an S1 of an S1 is an (S2)
 
Last edited:
HydroRed

HydroRed

Well-Known Member
Im cant disagree that every selfed generation moves further from the actual Glue cut, but at the end of it all an S1 selfed from an S1 is still an S1. May not be true "GG#4 S1" because it wasnt selfed from the cut, but it is still an S1. Thats all I was saying. The only way you can truly have an S2 is to incorporate another plant whether it be momma S1, sister S1 etc or open pollination. Im not talking record keeping, but a TRUE S2.
 
Heisenbeans

Heisenbeans

Well-Known Member
HydroRed said:
Im cant disagree that every selfed generation moves further from the actual Glue cut, but at the end of it all an S1 selfed from an S1 is still an S1. May not be true "GG#4 S1" because it wasnt selfed from the cut, but it is still an S1. Thats all I was saying. The only way you can truly have an S2 is to incorporate another plant whether it be momma S1, sister S1 etc or open pollination. Im not talking record keeping, but a TRUE S2.
Click to expand...
A true S2 is breeding two s1 child plants together. Just like that diagram Pope posted every cross becomes f2 f3 f4 and so on.
But since s1s dont come from 2 parents they can be selfed every generation of selfed mom gets a new number.
This is IMO the way it should be done so people know what they are dealing with.
 
CannaBruh

CannaBruh

Well-Known Member
Agree with Heisen, however should be noted that two conditions can be arrived at with this S2 nomenclature.

An S1 of an S1 == S2
&
2x S1 'sisters' banging each other for an S2 generation.

*append & a 3rd == GG4 x GG4(S1) == S2 Or (technically bc2? with an S1)
 
Last edited:
HydroRed

HydroRed

Well-Known Member
https://www.alchimiaweb.com/blogen/basic-nomenclature-cannabis-genetics/


"S1, feminised cannabis seeds
The acronym S1 refers to the first filial generation produced as a result of crossing the plant with itself. This is achieved by a range of techniques aimed at reversing the sex of the selected female plant, getting it to produce male pollen and using it to pollinate itself. If it’s done properly, we get feminised offspring with the same genotype of the parent used.

As always in genetics, the more stable the parent is, the more stable the offspring will be. This technique can also be used as a regular backcross, selecting and fixing traits but starting with just one parent. Thus, we can find S2 or S3 seeds, which have been backcrossed again with the original parent. Examples of S1 are Tropimango (Philosopher Seeds), S.A.D. (Sweet Seeds) or Trainweck (Greenhouse)."



https://www.royalqueenseeds.com/blog-basic-genetics-terminology-for-cannabis-n907

"SELFING
Selfing is when a mother plant is pollinated by herself. Breeders use special chemicals on female plants to induce stress, which results in the plants producing male flowers, which produce pollen. When this pollen in used on the female flowers of the same plant or a clone from the same mother, the resulting seeds will be “selfed” or coined as S1. When the S1 seeds are backcrossed with the original parent, they’re called S2, S3, and so on. Breeders often do this to preserve the genetics of the strain, and to feminize the seeds."
 
Heisenbeans

Heisenbeans

Well-Known Member
HydroRed said:
https://www.alchimiaweb.com/blogen/basic-nomenclature-cannabis-genetics/


"S1, feminised cannabis seeds
The acronym S1 refers to the first filial generation produced as a result of crossing the plant with itself. This is achieved by a range of techniques aimed at reversing the sex of the selected female plant, getting it to produce male pollen and using it to pollinate itself. If it’s done properly, we get feminised offspring with the same genotype of the parent used.

As always in genetics, the more stable the parent is, the more stable the offspring will be. This technique can also be used as a regular backcross, selecting and fixing traits but starting with just one parent. Thus, we can find S2 or S3 seeds, which have been backcrossed again with the original parent. Examples of S1 are Tropimango (Philosopher Seeds), S.A.D. (Sweet Seeds) or Trainweck (Greenhouse)."



https://www.royalqueenseeds.com/blog-basic-genetics-terminology-for-cannabis-n907

"SELFING
Selfing is when a mother plant is pollinated by herself. Breeders use special chemicals on female plants to induce stress, which results in the plants producing male flowers, which produce pollen. When this pollen in used on the female flowers of the same plant or a clone from the same mother, the resulting seeds will be “selfed” or coined as S1. When the S1 seeds are backcrossed with the original parent, they’re called S2, S3, and so on. Breeders often do this to preserve the genetics of the strain, and to feminize the seeds."
Click to expand...
Yeah royal queen seeds lol. Naw man you can ask 20 different breeders to define this shit and your gonna get 20 different answers.
Trying to stabilize a strain takes huge space and superior selection.
 
CoB_nUt

CoB_nUt

Well-Known Member
Ugh,take everything breeding involved out.Take the original clone mom out.Start with S1's of the original cut. Self the S1,resulting progeny are still S1's with the lil "2" that Cannabruh posted(btw how the fuck did you do the lil "2"?)? I think that is the best way to label it if it mattered imo.
Ok now forget the nomenclature for a sec. These s1's to the second power beans have original mom clones genotype locked in em somewhere due to the First s1 gen. Or should I say that particular S1's gens beans geno & pheno type.

I'm putting my rabbit hole shovel down now. My questions were answered before I ran out of toilet paper.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top