Good ole' trial & error... On the error side again; What went wrong with this soil batch?

So I made a witches brew batch of soil from various things on hand and then eventually had a soil test from Logan Labs. Came back through the roof, extreme toxicity on PK...

Round 2, lessons learned -> know the inputs, go light...

This time I did a Soil Savvy test and again I'm seeing through the roof numbers, except for P and micros. P is actually low this time and needs raised...

The inputs this time:

FFoF 45%
Perlite 25%
EWC 10%
Coco(Canna) 10%
AncientForest 5%
Turface 5%

Dolo Lime 1/4 cup per ft/3
Gypsum 1/4 cup per ft/3
Kelp 1/2 cup per ft/3
Neem 1/2 cup per ft/3
Azomite 1/4 cup per ft/3
Greensand 1/4 cup per ft/3
CrabShell 1/4 cup per ft/3

With this combination, I had the best crop yet - though it was only .5 g/watt or so and towards the ends I was seeing some weird discoloration on some plants/leaves but thought it was end-of-cycle and otherwise things were looking good.

So today the soil savvy test results came back:

Total N: 99 (target 20-30) - so 3x too hot! This one worries me a bit for flowering soil...
-- NO3: 96
-- NH4: 2.1
P: 4.5 (target 4-10) - glad I waited for soil test results; Need to amend with ?
K: 120.8 (target 30-55) - 4x on the low end, 2+ x on the higher end...
Ca: 565.7 (target 90-175) - Guess I won't have a shortage; but what issues will this cause?
Mg: 123.6 (target 15-35) - Another case of 3x or so...
S: 392.4 (target 6-12) - holy crap batman...
Na: 58.3 (target 1-20) - this 3x range seems to be a common theme

Fe: 1.0 (target .5-2) - finally within recommendations on something
Mn: 0.6 (target 2-4) - was hoping azomite covered micros better
Zn: 0.03 (target 0.1-0.2)
Cu: 0.1 (target 0.05-0.1) - right on the high end of reccommendations
B: 0.01 (target 0.1-0.2)

Ph: 6.3 - at least the ph is in the range...


Can you say disappointed? I've got 3x33gal cans of the last batch I can't use and now this is looking super hot too even when I tried to be more conservative in amending and the choice of base mix materials.

I think I'm going to amend with a dash of something with P only and I've also recently picked up some Mammoth P to try out this next time. For the other issues, I'm not really sure what needs corrected versus "just go with it and try"... Any real deal breakers here?

Suggested course of action to correct/improve the situation before next run?

Oh the soil savvy report reccomendation for the P fix is: 0-11-0 @ 0.75 lb/100 sq. ft --- which I've not figured out the math yet to get from that to cups/ft3 (or more like tbsp/ft3 probably)...

Post a picture of your results, my brain can’t handle the raw data.

I would cut out FFoF from now on, and make a more simple, clean base, my friend. ffof is notoriously all over the place, as well as hot. Probably the main issue, as your amendment regime is actually looking a bit weak and light to me.. minerals for one, I would do at least 4 cups per cu ft.

with several things being triple what you want, I would just make triple the soil, and then bump your low numbers up. And sell or trade some soil for veggies or labour or genetics, etc.

yeah I was suspecting the FFoF being a huge variable... and I used Canna this time to (hopefully) avoid the K that can be associated with coco. Wanted a dash of coco in there but not enough to cause the same issues again.

I was aiming low on all the amendments for fear of over-shooting and knowing I could always get a test and add more later... far easier to add than remove as I learned last time about mobility of those macros...

So let's say I cut it with a neutral medium; Any suggestions on what to use for cutting it & the P bump? I have some rock phos (0-3-0) on hand already and actually omitted it this time from fear of repeating the same PK toxicity and expecting the FFoF to cover it (of all I expected their NPK to be up there/little hot)... At least I didn't try their new hotter mix (strawberry fields iirc) or that vermifire stuff...

So in my mind I'm now faced with the 2 main questions/decisions: what to cut with - not coco for sure; and how much P and any other amendments to add to address the micros...

Thx for any & all input. Let me see if I can get a image of the report up as well...

Mmmm no direct upload facility for this forum... will deal with that later when I've got more time. Seems like a pia to post pics here; reccomendations for anon pic hosting to use that doesn't require a bunch of signups and spamming?

NewGrower2011 said:

yeah I was suspecting the FFoF being a huge variable... and I used Canna this time to (hopefully) avoid the K that can be associated with coco. Wanted a dash of coco in there but not enough to cause the same issues again.

I was aiming low on all the amendments for fear of over-shooting and knowing I could always get a test and add more later... far easier to add than remove as I learned last time about mobility of those macros...

So let's say I cut it with a neutral medium; Any suggestions on what to use for cutting it & the P bump? I have some rock phos (0-3-0) on hand already and actually omitted it this time from fear of repeating the same PK toxicity and expecting the FFoF to cover it (of all I expected their NPK to be up there/little hot)... At least I didn't try their new hotter mix (strawberry fields iirc) or that vermifire stuff...

So in my mind I'm now faced with the 2 main questions/decisions: what to cut with - not coco for sure; and how much P and any other amendments to add to address the micros...

Thx for any & all input. Let me see if I can get a image of the report up as well...

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Its more so the salt you need to worry about with coco, your K reading is probably from FFoF..rinsed outdoors 2 years straight, pithy texture, are among the best brands.. all coco will break down into K albeit very slowly and naturally, and usually not too much / beneficially as well.

As for cutting it, castings are usually only 1-1-1 and you could find some green compost too.. more aeration would be another.. including some biochar..

I would do aeration at around 45%..

What are the readings on the ancient forest and what not..

So for the micro's I was looking at something like this: https://customhydronutrients.com/soluble-trace-element-mix-1-lb-p-16.html?cPath=1_50_51_32&zenid=afbe624466d2692567ef938538875a47

I like the promise of something like that, but that particular mix above has things I don't need/could make those higher than intended. In general I really want out of the game of paying to ship bottles of water and super diluted compounds for top $$... I'm fine with investing a little up-front, once in and get something that'll last a small timer like me for a lifetime. I've got a giant bag of kelp, azomite that'll last me forever.

I have plenty of worm castings and a good bit of biochar left I could use. Was considering ordering another bag of the biochar (mother earth but open to other brands/charged sources). The ancient forest stuff I don't see any NPK since it's a humus...

lokie said:

View attachment 4177466

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doh! thanks. was using the toolbar icon expecting that to do the trick. Need to open my damn eyes...

NewGrower2011 said:

So for the micro's I was looking at something like this: https://customhydronutrients.com/soluble-trace-element-mix-1-lb-p-16.html?cPath=1_50_51_32&zenid=afbe624466d2692567ef938538875a47

I like the promise of something like that, but that particular mix above has things I don't need/could make those higher than intended. In general I really want out of the game of paying to ship bottles of water and super diluted compounds for top $$... I'm fine with investing a little up-front, once in and get something that'll last a small timer like me for a lifetime. I've got a giant bag of kelp, azomite that'll last me forever.

I have plenty of worm castings and a good bit of biochar left I could use. Was considering ordering another bag of the biochar (mother earth but open to other brands/charged sources). The ancient forest stuff I don't see any NPK since it's a humus...

Click to expand...

I would use more ancient forest then, its good to up your humus amounts...
biochar I would just make some, although I do have connects for in canada and usa but not in EU, happy to share.
EWC I would boost to 15%.
then aeration as mentioned.

I need to go find the spreadsheet I tracked the final inputs on.. I did have some biochar in there btw...

For upping the aeration I've got perlite and biochar both, and I'm always for diversity so if there's a better option given it has both already I'm all ears. I see people debate rice hulls and how they break down into a mush so not too keen on those. Maybe some pumice...

Was also eyeballing/considering that Recharge stuff this time around; Bought into the Mammoth theory/science at least enough to try it out.

Rice hulls provide Si and strength but yeah, they break down to fast and cause problems if you don't use more robust and permanent forms of aeration.

That said, one of the best is biochar, by far, as well as pumice. If you can get it. Leaf mould is another of the best, as well as rotting wood. A bit of sand doesn't hurt, except the back, as its heavy. Going down the list, there is also buckwheat hulls, which I would choose over rice hulls, but not before the others, however there, I would suggest organic to avoid a common spray / chemical.

I think you're right though, some of the guys I look up to use at least 6 kinds of aeration, I think they are onto something..

Since learning from them, I now suggest both a humus lending form of aeration, as well as mineral lending..

both decompacting and temporary, as well as robust and permanent..
@NewGrower2011

NewGrower2011 said:

So I made a witches brew batch of soil from various things on hand and then eventually had a soil test from Logan Labs. Came back through the roof, extreme toxicity on PK...

Round 2, lessons learned -> know the inputs, go light...

This time I did a Soil Savvy test and again I'm seeing through the roof numbers, except for P and micros. P is actually low this time and needs raised...

The inputs this time:

FFoF 45%
Perlite 25%
EWC 10%
Coco(Canna) 10%
AncientForest 5%
Turface 5%

Dolo Lime 1/4 cup per ft/3
Gypsum 1/4 cup per ft/3
Kelp 1/2 cup per ft/3
Neem 1/2 cup per ft/3
Azomite 1/4 cup per ft/3
Greensand 1/4 cup per ft/3
CrabShell 1/4 cup per ft/3

With this combination, I had the best crop yet - though it was only .5 g/watt or so and towards the ends I was seeing some weird discoloration on some plants/leaves but thought it was end-of-cycle and otherwise things were looking good.

So today the soil savvy test results came back:

Total N: 99 (target 20-30) - so 3x too hot! This one worries me a bit for flowering soil...
-- NO3: 96
-- NH4: 2.1
P: 4.5 (target 4-10) - glad I waited for soil test results; Need to amend with ?
K: 120.8 (target 30-55) - 4x on the low end, 2+ x on the higher end...
Ca: 565.7 (target 90-175) - Guess I won't have a shortage; but what issues will this cause?
Mg: 123.6 (target 15-35) - Another case of 3x or so...
S: 392.4 (target 6-12) - holy crap batman...
Na: 58.3 (target 1-20) - this 3x range seems to be a common theme

Fe: 1.0 (target .5-2) - finally within recommendations on something
Mn: 0.6 (target 2-4) - was hoping azomite covered micros better
Zn: 0.03 (target 0.1-0.2)
Cu: 0.1 (target 0.05-0.1) - right on the high end of reccommendations
B: 0.01 (target 0.1-0.2)

Ph: 6.3 - at least the ph is in the range...


Can you say disappointed? I've got 3x33gal cans of the last batch I can't use and now this is looking super hot too even when I tried to be more conservative in amending and the choice of base mix materials.

I think I'm going to amend with a dash of something with P only and I've also recently picked up some Mammoth P to try out this next time. For the other issues, I'm not really sure what needs corrected versus "just go with it and try"... Any real deal breakers here?

Suggested course of action to correct/improve the situation before next run?

Click to expand...

Which soil test did you have done by Logan Labs? Can you post them, especially if they contain results for soil organic matter, CEC, and EC (electrical conductivity)?

Do you know WHAT is represented by the Soil Savvy results? Do the "target" ranges reflect nutrient requirements for cannabis plants grown in potted containers (assuming that's how you're growing)?

So the 1st results were from a totally different batch than I'm currently working with. I started over for the current batch & test which used Soil Savvy this time since I understood it to be more oriented towards reflecting the 'plant available levels' whereas the Logan results were more 'soil contains' based. I don't believe the Soil Savvy targets any specific plant but just "garden" in general so they're going to target the tomatoes/peppers crowd to avoid any direct association with that evil drug... But they know who their target audience is... ;-p

Acutallly..... If that biochar isn't charged - won't it "suck up" some of those hot nutrient levels and make them more or less slow release?? Isn't that what they call sequestering the N? More to research after dinner, but wondering if more biochar won't do some magic here...

So after looking back on the 1st batch and this 2nd one, the 1st wasn't crazy with my amendments/choices, the common theme is the FFoF soil. Anyone know of a link to anyone else who's sent just plain/raw FFoF in for a soil test? I'm really curious if it may be the sole culprit in both of my attempts or not.

NewGrower2011 said:

So after looking back on the 1st batch and this 2nd one, the 1st wasn't crazy with my amendments/choices, the common theme is the FFoF soil. Anyone know of a link to anyone else who's sent just plain/raw FFoF in for a soil test? I'm really curious if it may be the sole culprit in both of my attempts or not.

Click to expand...

This is from Ed Rosenthal's book.