Get a Harvest Every 2 Weeks

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Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
how many weeks in,from seed, do you start to take clones to sex?

i think it would be easier to just take the clone(s) and then start to flower the donor plant, so you keep the plant(s) short- and toss any males you might have you along with your clones ,unless you are going to be breeding:hump:.
then you keep the clone(s) from your best plant after you harvest!!!!

i just started some seed and i think i will try this technique when the plants are one month in....

whats your thought on this al?:mrgreen: i hope that made sense:-|
Flower your mother plant? Why, so you can't take cuttings from it anymore? Cuttings from a plant in flower are notoriously slow to set root (this IS the 78th time I've mentioned that) and it will take several weeks in 18-24/h light to get the plant to return to veg habit. Why would you deliberately wreck your mother plant?

do you have to use aircon or can you just get C.A.P. 2 Timer Temp/Humidity/CO2 Controller which will disable CO2 injection if the temperature or humidity levels that you specify are exceeded, activating an exhaust outlet which can control ventilation equipment. Once again I know we have covered this a few times but earlier you said someone should only use aircon as a last resort.
Some sort of CO2 controller is needed, most have an aircon control facility. Aircon keeps the CO2 in the room. Aircon IS a last resort in most cases, except this one. If you are making the kind of dough off your op needed to buy a CO2 system, you can afford aircon, too. It is a huge power soak- you might be able to afford to run it, make sure you have the wiring to handle it as well.
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
Hmmm I was thinking that it was the temperatures at night that were getting to them (as low as 61F). I was under the impression that that could turn stalks purple as well, but I may be wrong on this. Either way, I gave them a nice feeding, and I'm sure they'll appreciate it!
Yep, you're right- some strains do get a purple tinge in low temps, but that cause usually purples leaf tips and growing tips. When you see it in the mainstem or the entire petioles (leaf stems), it's usually P deficiency. If you're feeding your soil plants 1x weekly with the recommended rate for 'outdoor' plants (per the mfr instructions), the purpling will stop in new growth but existing purpling will remain.

Cannabis will tend to go dormant at or below 16C/60F- you don't usually see indoor plants having to cope with temps that low. Need to raise that somehow. My op gets its light-off warmth from waste heat from my dehumidifier.

What do you think about clipping off the new growth on the sides from the veg time and throwing them straight into flower? That is to say, trim them down to look like how your clones look on day 1. Essentially they'd be at the same point as your clones with only one growth tip. Would this solve the issue of fluffy buds? I'm hoping so, cuz that's what I did last night =P
Yep right again, should be OK- on the other hand, cannabis in veg responds well to being pruned back and may come back even more vigorously. Since you're going straight on to flower with those (right?), I HOPE that will stop your vertical growth by about wk4, but if they've been vegging under a big light for a few weeks, they might defy my hope. Plants which have been vegged and cut back will have a much more advanced root system than clones which have only been working on a root system for 15 days. I think that advanced rootmass may drive your plants to be taller than recently done clones. Of course, you won't want to lop the mainstems.
 

We TaRdED

Well-Known Member
That's how I did it. I sent 13 plants to flower (6F, 6M, 1H). Cut clones from all pre-flower, tossed the H and M clones and vwalah, got future moms + next round of plants to go into flower, plus I've got bud on the way sooner :hump:. Some rooted faster/better than others (Also taking that into consideration when choosing mum). 2 different strains, 4 very different plants.
Flower your mother plant? Why, so you can't take cuttings from it anymore? Cuttings from a plant in flower are notoriously slow to set root (this IS the 78th time I've mentioned that) and it will take several weeks in 18-24/h light to get the plant to return to veg habit. Why would you deliberately wreck your mother plant?
smartfood gets the point i was trying to convey.

you take cuttings before you start flowering that way they wont have to revert back to vegg. also, you use the clones as future mother plants-almost like what you do.

here are some of the benefits, im my perspective.
  • you get to flower your "seed" plants right after you take the cutting and let the "seed" plants show you the sex and quality of bud. you then know which clones are what gender. so you get to harvest your initial crop sooner because you put them into flowering sooner.
  • your not wasting as much plant material. from what i gather, when using clones to sex your plants after you determine the sex of the clone/donor plant i heard ppl often discard these few clones for some reason.. maybe its because it just doesnt fit into their op :-|-no point of flowering 5 small clones under a 1kw light:mrgreen:
  • this way will let you be able determine which is your finest :hump: plant(s) and which clones to keep without reverting back to vegg... also this would be the quickest way to do so because your kicking it into flower ASAP!!!!
  • you wont have to worry about height issues as much because your flowering earlier.
  • basically i think this way would knock off the two weeks you would be waiting for the clones to show sex!
so step by step,

1.take clones as soon as possible!

2.right after you take the clones, switch to flowering your donor plants

3.vegg grow clones out while you are waiting to see the finished product of the donors plants. as a side note, you would grow them out proportional to how many cuttings your going to need to fill your system/room. no need to grow these clones into monsters if your only doing a 6 plant DWC system.

4. after you find your favorite flowering donor plant(s) keep these clone(s) for your next cycle and for future moms. you can discard the less appealing clone(s), or by this time, you could take some more clones of the slightly less favorable and flower them- if you need the extra plants.

5. smoke your medicine:blsmoke:and enjoy

this might not be the best idea if you dont have your cloning down because if your clones dont take root your plants are all ready flowering... it usually takes ~10 days to root a cutting so if these clones fail you might need to take cutting(s) off a flowering plant- which is bad because of the reasons al explained in his latter post. also make sure the plant(s) is big enough to give decent cutting: as al has said "thicker stems root quicker"

sorry for the rant, but this way seems more logical to me for some reason.

ive been awake for >20 some odd hours so im kinda out of it right now, hopefully this will make more sense to you guys than my brief post on this.

hit me up with some reps ppl if this was useful:hump: please:mrgreen: & ty:D

edit- im not claiming this is a novel idea, just the way that makes the most sense to me!
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
so step by step,

1.take clones as soon as possible!

2.right after you take the clones, switch to flowering your donor plants

3.vegg grow clones out while you are waiting to see the finished product of the donors plants. as a side note, you would grow them out proportional to how many cuttings your going to need to fill your system/room. no need to grow these clones into monsters if your only doing a 6 plant DWC system.

4. after you find your favorite flowering donor plant(s) keep these clone(s) for your next cycle and for future moms. you can discard the less appealing clone(s), or by this time, you could take some more clones of the slightly less favorable and flower them- if you need the extra plants.
OK, I see what you're up to- I guess it's good cloning practise. However, I don't see the time advantage. Your suggestion may shave some time off the first buds to come out of the op but will slow you down from establishing a 2-week SoG output.

The problem I see is that if you're flowering off your developed mums and using the clones as future mums, you're building a delay back into the schedule. The clones will have to veg up for a few weeks before they will be useful as mums. If you flower the clones and keep the mums vegging, the (then known sex) mums will be ready to donate another batch of cuttings in about 2 weeks after you have taken the batch that you're now sexing/flowering. If you go the other way about, you'll be waiting 3-4 weeks for the clones to veg up enough to yield good sized slips. After then, you'll have a decent stock of mother material for biweekly cuttings.
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
Flowering the mums actually could build in a longer delay than I first thought.

OK, let's plan this out (FYI, MS Project is a great tool for this job- I wish I had a copy!).

We'll try it via your suggestion first.

Let's start from 1 June.

An unknown sex donor raised from seed planted on 1 April (which we'll call 'Sally,' cos we're optimistic :)) yields some cuttings on 1 June. Let's call those cuts 'Batch A.'

Batch A takes 7-10 days to strike, 14-15 days pass before Batch A have a developed enough root system to be put under the HID veg light (15 June). 3-4 wks more to veg up Batch A enough to yield a batch of cuts. Batch A is ready to supply a pass of cuts on 15 July.

Sally needs a week of veg post yielding the Batch A cuttings to recover. Chuck Sally in to flower on 7 June.

Wait a week with Sally in 12/12; now 15 June. You're lucky! Sally comes up female. Batch A in the veg area are now known to be female. Sally will be a big bushy plant having been lopped & topped, but that won't worry you as you have no other plants in the op now. Harvest Sally on 7 August.

We're now waiting for Batch A to veg up enough to yield cuttings. Take a pass of cuttings- call them Batch B- on 15 July. Wait 15 days for Batch B to develop a good spray of roots before flowering.

1 August, Batch B goes in to flower. Batch B is ready to harvest on 1 October, your first of perpetual 2-week harvests. .

There is a 7 week gap between the first and second harvests (snip Sally on 7 Aug, snip Batch B on 1 Oct).

Batch A, in veg, recovers by 1 August from the 15 July pass of cuts.

Do a pass of cuttings on 1 Aug, Batch C, which will be ready to flower by 15 August, ready to harvest by 15 October.

Batch A recovers from donating Batch C on 15 Aug and will yield cuts every 2 weeks for the next couple-3 months. Replace with spare clones as they wear out.

Now you have the mums and thus the whole 2 week cycle established.

OK, now the other way around:

1 June: a sexually mature yet unknown sex donor raised from seed (Sally) yields some cuttings (Batch A). Sally keeps on vegging.

15 June: Batch A now have enough roots to go in to flower. See you in 8 weeks. Divert some clones to be future mums should Sally be female. Veg them with Sally; they will be ready to donate cuttings in 3-4 wks.

Also 15 June: Sally is now vegged up enough for another pass of cuttings (and will be a fairly large plant by now, capable of supplying most of the clones you need), but is still sex unknown. Do a pass of cuttings (Batch B) on faith or wait a week for Batch A (in the flowering area since 1 June) to show sex.

21 June: Yay, Batch A turn up female. Batch A is ready to harvest on 15 August, your first of repeating 2 week harvests.

If you took a punt and did Batch B on 15 June, they will go in to flower on 1 July, ready to harvest on 1 September.

1 July: Sally is recovered and ready for another pass of cuts, Batch C. Mum stock is now established and ready for biweekly cuttings.

15 July: Batch C goes in to flower, ready to harvest on 15 September. Harvests come out every 2 weeks thereafter.

Pays you to establish a mum and use it as one instead of flowering it. You establish your cycle sooner and don't have a big gap in between harvests. You get first buds a week later but you get them every 2 weeks thereafter by NOT building in the delay for vegging up clones. Using mums as mums will further make the op yield 3 full trays of bud in the time you're waiting on clones to veg.
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
It occurs to me that I don't think I've covered the mother plant system in all of this thread. Tells you how much of a no brainer it is to raise mums. :D

I always take more cuttings than I need- I cut 30 every 2 weeks and flower 23. When I need to replace mums, some of the 7 spares are used, otherwise they become compost.

A new clone takes about 3-4 weeks of vegging before it will be sufficiently large to provide any amount of thick stemmed cuttings. On the first day a clone goes in the the mother area, I snip off the growing tip to force branching.

I can fuel the 30 biweekly cuttings I need with only about 5-6 well-developed mums. I have 10 pot spaces in my mother plant area, so at any given time, I can replace 4-5 old mums with younguns, which veg up while the remaining oldies continue supplying clones.

I usually don't replace more than 2-3 mums at any given time- the more large, established mums there are, the better the selection of thick stems will be available for cuttings.

Mums run on Canna Vega, 1500-1800ppm @ 5.8, under a 400HPS on 24/0. They live in pots of 100% rockwool floc (works better for the mums than Fytocell for some reason) in a roughly 1.5' x 3' flood tray (I otta measure that), supplied by a ~50L tank. Could do with a bigger tank. Advanced mums are hugely thirsty, especially when they are very large, just before a pass of cuttings, and the mum tank requires frequent top-up.
 

Kaosisglobal

Well-Known Member
Hey AL, could you tell us more about setting up flood tables. I am using DWC (bubbleponics tanks) And as we had discussed transplanting is not easy, but BTW everything that I did move showed no signs of damage. I had to risk it, but it turned out ok. I am looking to setup something in minds of expansion. I only have my flowering chamber now, and while I have noticed that hydro clones will root in 12/12, my attempts in soil, have not been as good to me. I was thinking soil, because of ease and it's supposed to be the beginners way. But I have the hydro, going great and with ease. And I think I am just not using the right soil. Cause even the soil shows growth, but growth with bad fert. ya know. Well if anything, give us some ideas to a setting up floods with a low budget in mind.
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
Hey AL, could you tell us more about setting up flood tables. I am using DWC (bubbleponics tanks) And as we had discussed transplanting is not easy, but BTW everything that I did move showed no signs of damage. I had to risk it, but it turned out ok. I am looking to setup something in minds of expansion. I only have my flowering chamber now, and while I have noticed that hydro clones will root in 12/12, my attempts in soil, have not been as good to me. I was thinking soil, because of ease and it's supposed to be the beginners way. But I have the hydro, going great and with ease. And I think I am just not using the right soil. Cause even the soil shows growth, but growth with bad fert. ya know. Well if anything, give us some ideas to a setting up floods with a low budget in mind.
First, you need to make up a clonebox.



An old plywood shipping container is ideal. Look behind businesses that sell large or heavy articles (found mine behind a place that sells big-arsed commercial fire pumps) for discarded containers.

Failing that, buy a few bits of 2x4 for the frame & a sheet of plywood (MDF or particle board will not do- humidity & water splashes will trash these materials quickly) and whack one together. This ain't furniture grade carpentry, just make it strong enough to hang together.

You might also use a large (125L or bigger) plastic storage container.

My clonebox is just a miniature grow room with a heatmat. Lined with stolen... err... surplus Coroplast/Corflute real-estate signs. ;) Corflute is super durable, cleanable, tolerates frequent sterilisation with 10% bleach solution. There's 3x 24" twin-tube fluoro fixtures and a thermostatically controlled exhaust fan, set for 26.5C. The heatmat is fixed 30C temp, no thermostat dial.

Lights run 24/0 but I do have a timer on them so I can give the clones 6 hours of darkness right after doing a batch of cuttings. This helps them establish water uptake through the stem cuts, before having to cope with transpiration caused by exposure to light without yet having a root system, even though these tube fluoros were deliberately chosen to be weak & gentle. Clones need not be pounded with light, they only need to be convinced it is daylight for 18+h/day to keep them in veg mode. Doesn't take much light for that.

Keeping clones in a high humidity environment to prevent wilt is not necessary if the kids can get good water uptake through their stem cuts.

If your scalpel was not fully sterile or your media is overwet, you will see wilt about 3-5 days after cutting. No problem, recut them with a sterile scalpel and use H2O2, 50% grade @ 1ml/L in your clone watering solution and you won't see it again, as long as you don't repeat the overwet medium condition.

The controlled environment with heat mat, along with getting your watering right (medium must be only damp, never wet or saturated), will raise your success rate to nearly 100% every time.

A 40mm cube weighs 5g dry and 20-25g when properly damp. Heavier is too wet and will not leave enough oxygen in the cube to encourage quick rooting.

When I lose cuttings, it's usually due to imperfect RW cubes. I buy a 2250 ct carton of 40mm cubes once every couple of years. Some cubes, even within the same carton, are not very dense and won't form well around the stems. The fit around the stems has to be tight.

I water clones by dipping only a corner of the cubes for about 1 sec into a bucket of clone watering solution.



The watering solution is simply tapwater with 1ml/L H2O2 and pH adjusted to 5.8.

Your next project is to cordon off a small area with panda film to raise your mum/s. It will need a thermostatically controlled exhaust fan, a circ fan and a small HPS. I use a 400 to run 10 mums, but I might be able to get by with a 250.

Hydroponics is easy, but there are startup costs and you do have to go a bit out of your way to get the right stuff. If you plan well and shop well, it's an investment that will pay for itself over and over for many years.

While short-lived substitutes can be bunged together, I don't recommend trying to bodge up your own flood trays. They tend to develop leaks- and grief. Proper vacuformed plastic trays are not that expensive and last for years. I pay $52 for 900mm x 900mm trays. Shop around.

Lots of alternatives for media. You can use lava rock (from hdwe, landscaper or BBQ sply) instead of clay pellets, but I suspect pellets are cheaper, even at the hydro shop. Pellets are lighter weight and somewhat re-usable if you can be bothered to clean & sterilise them, which is best done by hand. These types are not absorbent and require flooding several times per light-on cycle.

Lightweight, disposable, absorbent media like rockwool floc and Fytocell only need flooding 1-2x per lights-on and are easier to dispose of in common rubbish than heavyweight alternatives. May also be sold also at bldg sply houses as insulation. Fibreglas will work in a pinch as a substitute absorbent medium but poses well-known hazards and should always be kept damp to keep fibres from floating about. Using disposable media prevents transmission of root diseases and bugs from batch to batch, important in a constant output op like mine. Downside is you have to buy & dispose of it. Small price to pay IMNSFHO for the reliability of plants in pots of absorbent media.

You will spend a few hundred bucks setting up a competent op. You can shave costs by using converted HPS security lighting with home made reflectors, use the shop's brand of hydro nutes and buy 50% grade H2O2 in 25L bulk containers ($5/L instead of $12-20+/L for little 250ml-1L bottles at Ye Olde Hydroe Shoppe, 25L lasts me 6-8 mos with my 550L of tanks which are dumped biweekly & dosed every 3-4 days). Don't skimp on pH & EC metering. Strip pH tests ballpark you but are hard to use and are not that accurate. Get proper electronic meters for hydroponics. There's very cheap ones around if you look (even Ebay). Don't worry about distilled or RO water.
 

massbaster

Well-Known Member
maybe you addressed this in another post but i am lazy to read so many until i find it. hey at least i am honest.

anyhow, when you start to rotate the clones 2-4,4-6,6-8 how do you setup your lights for the difference in height? i am assuming that each new batch of clones would be smaller than the first batch since they would have been in flower for 2-4 weeks right?

is your hid light enough for all heights at the distance set? or do you have multiple lights to adjust for maximum efficiency?
 

bigwheel

Well-Known Member
Gosh sure wished I wasnt so drunk as to be able to understand all this stuff. Friday is boys night out. Been doing beer and Seven Crown Shooters for the past few hours. Come on and puffed on some real crappy Marlboros. My mind is fried. Could you repeat this later? Thanks.

Big Wheel
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
maybe you addressed this in another post but i am lazy to read so many until i find it. hey at least i am honest.

anyhow, when you start to rotate the clones 2-4,4-6,6-8 how do you setup your lights for the difference in height? i am assuming that each new batch of clones would be smaller than the first batch since they would have been in flower for 2-4 weeks right?

is your hid light enough for all heights at the distance set? or do you have multiple lights to adjust for maximum efficiency?
Each 1000HPS runs a pair of trays. There's very little height difference between plants in trays 3 (wks4-6) & 4 (wks 6-8), so there's no concerns there.

However, you're right, there is a stature disparity between plants in trays 1 (wks 1-2) & 2 (wks 3-4). Plants in tray 1, being absolute beginners, are only about 8-9" tall for their first week.

If all goes well, they will be 2-2.5x their start height in just 7 days. By the time they are ready to move on to tray 2, they are within a few inches of the height of the wk4 plants in tray 2, which themselves are pretty much at the wk 8 finishing height of about 33-36" or so.

The week's disparity doesn't worry me much with small plants; the extra distance in the first week isn't really such a bad thing.

Though the light's lower traverse limit is the height of the tray 2 plants + 300mm (for a 1000 in a cooltube), the new residents in tray 1 have been living under deliberately weak fluoros for the past 2 weeks. The seemingly excessive distance has a purpose in 'sun hardening' the clones. A 1000HPS isn't the sun by any stretch of the imagination, but you can sunburn plants which have developed new foliage under fluoros.

Though it's fine for more advanced plants, I wouldn't dare put a cooltubed 1000 at only 300mm over a just-planted clone whose roots have not yet knit down into the pot of media. Got to have enough rootmass to support the water demand from the leaves, which goes up dramatically with exposure to strong light. The week or so of being about 600-700mm from the nearest newbie gives them time to get their root systems developed. They then suit themselves to the right height depending on the intensity they are getting. I shift the tray 1 plants around a couple times a week to even them up.
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
Gosh sure wished I wasnt so drunk as to be able to understand all this stuff. Friday is boys night out. Been doing beer and Seven Crown Shooters for the past few hours. Come on and puffed on some real crappy Marlboros. My mind is fried. Could you repeat this later? Thanks.
And your pissheadedness became my problem... when? :lol:

Alcohol sucks. Smoke more dope.
 

bigal10

Active Member
Hey Al I was wondering again about the AC +CO2. I know I cant let it go, but if you were to put CO2+AC would you still be running your your exhaust fans, i guess you would have it there in case you need to remove the air from the room instantly right. I found a 7,500 BTU portable air conditioner that only uses 6200 watts. Would you still set up a vent system is what Im wondering wondering for flowering, mums, and clones if you had an AC. Oh, and yeah I agree down with alcohol up with dope.
 

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
Hey Al I was wondering again about the AC +CO2. I know I cant let it go, but if you were to put CO2+AC would you still be running your your exhaust fans, i guess you would have it there in case you need to remove the air from the room instantly right.


If you have CO2 & AC, a throughflowing exhaust system is redundant.

I found a 7,500 BTU portable air conditioner that only uses 6200 watts.
Check those figures!

'Only' 6200 watts?! That would require 28 amps on 220v or 56.3 amps on 120V. My house has 60A service- for the whole house.

A 7500 BTU aircon unit is really rather small and should be drawing about 620 watts, not 6200!

Portable aircon units, the sort on wheels (like this one- which oddly enough is a 7500BTU unit that draws 620 watts... :lol:) are not very efficient. I would not expect this unit to handle a single 600, much less a 1000W HPS unless that lamp were cooltubed... in which case you still need a throughflowing ventilation system, if but for the cooltubes. These portables must have their intake and outlet vent lines run out a window.
Would you still set up a vent system is what Im wondering wondering for flowering, mums, and clones if you had an AC.
I'd have a cooltube system and use a window mount or split system type aircon unit.

Oh, and yeah I agree down with alcohol up with dope.
I fucking hate drunks. I support capital punishment for drunk drivers. Those who injure or kill innocents should be worked over with a belt sander from head to toe and dipped in lemon juice before being electrocuted.

In Merrie Olde England, for treason, they used to crucify the offender, slit open the belly and throw the living person's intestines on a red-hot bed of coals while they watched. That's almost good enough for drunks.
 

Scotland

Active Member
Hi Al, I was hoping you could provide me with some further information about your mother plants. I have 4 plants that have been grown from seed (4 weeks from putting them in kitchen paper!) and are about 8" tall and looking pretty healthy. I am keen for these 4 plants to become my original mothers and would like to know more details on how to manicure them to provide the best cloning braches.

I understand the procedure involved in topping / fimming but am unsure when and where to do so. The plants have, as far as I understand, the fan leaves and the side shoots that form between the main stem and these fan leaves. Is it these shoots that will eventually be clones?? Almost all the cloning information I can find is for clones which will be 4" or so in height, and I know you suggest more than double this so I am keen to know your secrets!

I found this page when looking for further information, but it looks quite harsh to cut the top off the plant in this manner....
mums

Any advice you have would be gratefully received!

Thanks!
 
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