Get a Harvest Every 2 Weeks

LoudBlunts said:

check my sig for hilarious claims to the cfls!!1

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That kills me every time i look at it,fruity buds

FZ is a dweeb and is a new denizen of my ignore list.

However, I don't want to demonise those tempted to flower with CFLs or CFL evangelists as morons in general. They're cheap- but not all of them are fools.

What I DO want to do is advise that CFLs are neither the next big thing nor particularly good at the job of flowering cannabis.

Yes, they are cheap. Yes, they are widely available. Yes, they appear bright to the eye. Yes, the 'incandescent equivalent wattage' comparison value on the packaging is impressive to the casual observer. Yes, they run cooler than HID lighting. All very compelling reasons to try them... if one forgets or willingly discounts the fact that cannabis needs high intensity light to make dense flowers, absent from fluoros lighting.

However, fluoros of all types are low pressure mercury arc lights. They make light by sustaining an arc through a tube filled with mercury gas. That arc excites a layer of a powdered fluorescing material inside the tube to glow, much more brightly than would such a low-powered arc alone.

The arc in a fluoro tube is very low energy compared to the arc in an HID lamp and only emits as much light as it does because of the fluorescing qualities of the powder. Unfortunately, even if the arc were much stronger, the fluoro coating is a powdered solid and blocks any light emitted from the arc per se.

It is actually this powdered coating which fluoro tubes rely upon to block the otherwise strong UV output of an arc through mercury vapour. UV fluorescent tubes for ozonators are simply typical fluoro tubes without the fluoro powder.

HID lighting relies on a much higher energy arc, exciting mercury and sodium as a vapour to glow. No intermediate layer of a powdered solid coating on the inside of the tube to block the path from the arc to the plants. This is why HID lighting can generate high-intensity light.

Al B. Fuct said:

This of course presumes that there is a such thing as a CFL (or combination of them) comparable in luminous output to any HID... but there ain't.

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Well, not to quibble, but I meant that to agree with what you're saying, exactly. Compared to any HID, CFLs can't compete. Relative to the old-school grows people used to try using only standard output shop-lite tubes, CFLs certainly work a lot better. They may not actually be any 'better' or really any different (electrically speaking) but they are very flexible in terms of placement, mounting, adjustment, etc. They make growing in spaces/situations where even a 150W wallpack HPS wouldn't be manageable into a possibility, if an awkward one.

True... but if you're going to go to the trouble of growing dope indoors and you're going to use a couple hundred watts to do it, wouldn't you rather get some decent quality for your hard work?

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What's important, in the end, is that I have medication. Sure, I'd rather yield more per unit of work or cost--but something is better than nothing! To that end, I'm not making myself choose. I have my main 430W HPS grow, and am now experimenting with CFLs in a couple cabinets--mostly for cloning and veg but there is the one experimental cab intended to be a rotating scrog.

That's the golden rule according to sellers of CFLs, but it's not terribly useful to you & me. As I have said many times, CFLs don't get brighter when placed side-by-side.

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Yeah, I didn't mean it that way. In the fixture I built that's comprised of staggered row of CFLs, the layout is designed to allow the scrog's colas to grow up into the space between the bulbs. As I see it, you can't maximize intensity with CFLs, but you can maximize coverage and make sure that as much light at whatever intensity is reaching the plant from every direction. So far as I can tell, this is the big lesson GK is trying to teach people.

My revised golden rule of CFL growing:

1) use them on clones, seedlings and for slow vegging mums, they're great for those purposes
2) don't bother with CFLs for flowering, go buy a small HPS and cooltube it if you have a small air volume space to light.

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OK, but I'd add this:

3) If you positively can't use an HPS, you need to surround your bud-sites with CFLs. Maximize coverage (amount of light), as brightness (intensity of light) is fixed. It seems to me there's an analogy to hydraulic or electrical power: you can deliver X amount of energy through more volume (amps) at a lower pressure (voltage)--which is CFLs-- or you can have it by delivering less volume at a higher pressure--HIDs. Not a perfect analogy, I know, in part because all things are not equal, with Cannabis preferring sufficient higher-intensity light to excessive lower-intensity light.

4) Stop bothering Al about CFLs--there's a whole sub-forum for them!

EDIT: I think that last post of Al's wraps it up pretty neatly.

hey al, rule 1 of cfls. when you say slow veggin moms, do mean in a situation where i may be doin your setup on a four weeks rotation, or even if i just fill a whole room every 8 weeks and keep the moms under cfls for the 8 weeks wait?

hey Al i found the last bag of fytocell and i got it. the question is should i soak it for 24 hrs. in the nute. solution? is that what you do? also my tap water is 250 to 320 ppm would it be best to use RO with this high ppm? thank you for your invaluable expertise.

Maccabee said:

Relative to the old-school grows people used to try using only standard output shop-lite tubes, CFLs certainly work a lot better. They may not actually be any 'better' or really any different (electrically speaking) but they are very flexible in terms of placement, mounting, adjustment, etc.

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Great point here, and all those following. Agreed fully.

CFLs can produce some bud- which is always better than none.

cmak40 said:

hey al, rule 1 of cfls. when you say slow veggin moms, do mean in a situation where i may be doin your setup on a four weeks rotation, or even if i just fill a whole room every 8 weeks and keep the moms under cfls for the 8 weeks wait?

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Yes, CFLs will maintain the mums fine in a situation where you infrequently need cuttings. You won't have to prune back and discard the excess plant material not needed for cuttings as often as you would when using HID lighting to maintain them. However, over 8 weeks, even under CFL, your mums will need pruning back a couple of times.

butterflykisses said:

hey Al i found the last bag of fytocell and i got it. the question is should i soak it for 24 hrs. in the nute. solution? is that what you do? also my tap water is 250 to 320 ppm would it be best to use RO with this high ppm? thank you for your invaluable expertise.

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Fytogreen do advise you to soak Fytocell in nute soln for 24h before use- that's the instruction as printed on the bag. However, I find that packing pots with wet Fytocell is a messy pain in the ass. I pack my pots with 25-50mm of RW floc then fill the remainder with dry Fytocell. I'll then flood the pots from the bottom in the flood trays and also from the top with a spare pump and hose, making sure the material is well saturated before plugging in plants.

A ppm that high tells me that you probably have a lot of dissolved limestone in your tapwater. A high pH (8-8.5) would further indicate that to be the source. If the source were high salinity, the pH would not necessarily be so high.

Limestone is mainly calcium- an important micronutrient. I even use a calcium addtive in my tanks. The main effect of excessive limestone will be to raise the pH- and you can fix that with your pHDown sauce.

I don't think I'd bother with RO or distilled water unless I knew the water had a lot of sulfur or salt- most likely to be found in bore water. Municipal tapwater will be fine. I've never had a problem in any hydro op (nor been advised of any) caused by municipal tapwater.

Al B. Fuct said:

I've never had a problem in any hydro op (nor been advised of any) caused by municipal tapwater.

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Do they use chlorination where you are? I've been in U.S. cities where the chlorine in the tap water can be smelled in the glass.

FWIW, your municipality should have water quality information, in minute detail, freely available. Probably online.

For Americans, here's the EPA jump page to get you there:

Environmental Protection Agency - Local Drinking Water Information

Pick your state and it will help you drill down.

Brits:
UK Defra | e-Digest Environment Statistics, Inland water quality and use

Canadians:
Drinking Water - Water Quality

Do we have many users from anywhere else?

COT DAMNIT!!! maccabee i had a website where i plugged in information and it would give me the details of the water.... i thought i bookmarked it...guess not.

you know what im talking about?

thank god i havent cleared my history in 2 weeks....


thank god for the history and search function aye???

EWG Investigation | U.S. Tap Water Quality Database enjoy folks!

LoudBlunts said:

thank god i havent cleared my history in 2 weeks....


thank god for the history and search function aye???

EWG Investigation | U.S. Tap Water Quality Database enjoy folks!

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Very cool, but you may find that the local water department sites and reports linked to by the EPA has more comprehensive information. Mine has three pages of TDS readings from various checkpoints in the distribution network.

Maccabee said:

Do they use chlorination where you are? I've been in U.S. cities where the chlorine in the tap water can be smelled in the glass.

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Chlorination is used in just about all modern municipal reticulation systems around the world.

Chlorination is wacky stuff- strangely, when your pool's water reeks of chlorine & burns your eyes, it probably has too little chlorine.

Pool Chlorine Smell

Many pool owners complain that the swimming pool water is not really clean, but they can smell the chlorine so there must be enough in the water to ensure disinfection.

Unfortunately, if you can smell chlorine, the swimming pool hasn't got enough - strange, isn't it?! What you can smell are chloramines. These are formed when insufficient levels of free available chlorine react with ammonia and other nitrogen-containing compounds (swimmer waste, sweat, urine, etc.), resulting in their only being partially broken down (creating halomethanes).

To confirm this, measure the free available chlorine and total chlorine. You will be able to calculate the unwanted, irritating combined chlorine compounds as follows:

Combined chlorine = total chlorine - free chlorine

You will probably find that there is little or no free available chlorine and too much combined chlorine. A chlorine shock treatment or other pool water sanitiser is necessary to complete the disinfection and dissipate the combined chlorine.

The combined chlorine in the pool water can also be destroyed with a non-chlorine shock if you prefer not to use large quantities of chlorine.

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Also, with specific reference to tapwater:

My water smells like chlorine. I don't like it. Why does it have to be in the water?

Chlorine is a very effective disinfectant used kill any harmful bacteria that might be present in the water source. The amount of chlorine that is used is based on several things.

1) the amount of water being treated;
2) the number or amount of contaminants that must be controlled: and
3) the length of time the chlorine has to react in the water before the water reaches the first customer.

If the water has a chlorine smell, it may actually indicate that not enough chlorine is being added to the system. By increasing the amount of chlorine used at the treatment plant, different forms of chlorine are created in the water, which have less chlorine odor.

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Chlorinated tapwater will not hurt plants. It is the indoor grower's friend. It suppresses pathogens in the pipeline and in your tanks, at least until it evaporates out of solution. If you can smell chlorine in the tapwater, there's more hazard potential from pathogens not killed due to insufficient chlorination than from the chlorine.

Al B. Fuct said:

Chlorinated tapwater will not hurt plants. It is the indoor grower's friend.

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Now, that's interesting. I keep reading about how I need an RO system to remove chlorine, and that it will kill my plants. It's often suggested that if you don't have RO, you should leave muni water out in an uncovered container for 1 - 2 days if you can, to allow the chlorine to evaporate, and that you can aerate it violently to speed the process.....

That's all superstition and nonsense? I'd be cool if it were. My tap water is 200PPM, not so bad, so I'd like to avoid buying an RO system if I can. (The city reports the chlorine levels at the sampling point closest to me to be 1.2 PPM -- it seems hard to imagine that little could cause an issue....chlorate levels, on the other hand, are higher.)

the way i see it... an indoor hydro or soilless grower using strictly chem ferts should use chlorinated water

an organic grower would want to bubble most of the chlorine out of the water,... in organics its all about building up a microherd of beneficial bacteria that help get nutrient to your plants... the chlorine would kill off that bene. bacteria....


atleast, thats my take on it

thanks for the tips al....i already got a co2 monitoring system, i've yet to touch it tho...as its for the cab and not the tent!

i also agree with you. i wasnt planning on sealing up that room....maybe just some heavy curtains and possibly panda film.... just to make sure no nosy binoculars...never can be too careful eh??

and mannnn im just gonna try that hanna...ill report back to you on the quality...when was the last time you went meter shopping?

it does suck that it looks like i cant change the ph probe myself...130 bucks for ph/ec/tds/temp is looking pretty good tho!

if all else fail...i will get the bluelabs like i should have in the first place.... i still may get them as a backup like you recommend. i would be S.O.L aye?

Maccabee said:

Now, that's interesting. I keep reading about how I need an RO system to remove chlorine, and that it will kill my plants. It's often suggested that if you don't have RO, you should leave muni water out in an uncovered container for 1 - 2 days if you can, to allow the chlorine to evaporate, and that you can aerate it violently to speed the process.....

That's all superstition and nonsense? I'd be cool if it were. My tap water is 200PPM, not so bad, so I'd like to avoid buying an RO system if I can. (The city reports the chlorine levels at the sampling point closest to me to be 1.2 PPM -- it seems hard to imagine that little could cause an issue....chlorate levels, on the other hand, are higher.)

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he hit on that a few pages back...i think he said 200 plus is pushing it. Anything you wouldnt drink, you shouldnt be feeding to your plants perse.... especially with the tanish/bronzish/brownish tint to the water...yuck!

LoudBlunts said:

he hit on that a few pages back...i think he said 200 plus is pushing it. Anything you wouldnt drink, you shouldnt be feeding to your plants perse.... especially with the tanish/bronzish/brownish tint to the water...yuck!

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It's clear. And I do drink it.

Maccabee said:

It's clear. And I do drink it.

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wow!!! that took alot of searching!!!!

make me realize again how much Al reiterates shit. Shows he loves us & his hobby


https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/6592-get-harvest-every-2-weeks-21.html#post639586

Maccabee said:

That's all superstition and nonsense? I'd be cool if it were.

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Yep, that's about it.

I do agree with LJI that if you're using organics, you do have the possibility of killing beneficial microbes with chlorinated water. The 'bubbling off chlorine' advice sounds like something useful for soil/organic growers, not a chemical based hydro op. You can't use H2O2 with organics either.

...kinda begs the effing question, why would you use organics? The elements that cross the root barrier are elements- matters little whether your plants get their nitrogen from ammonium nitrate or from rotted veg matter and bat guano.

LoudBlunts said:

and mannnn im just gonna try that hanna...ill report back to you on the quality...when was the last time you went meter shopping?

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Haven't had to buy a meter of any sort in years (probably 7 years in the case of my Truncheon- it's branded NZ Hydroponics and the company has since even changed their name to Bluelab), just have replaced the probe tip on the Eutech pH meter every couple of years.

BTW, I can get Eutech pHScan1 meters for $AUD112.53 ($USD103.14), posts to USA via Australia Post Air Mail for about $AUD9.00. I can also get Bluelab Truncheon nute meters for $AUD108.90 (USD$99.81), similar postage.

Hey Al, quick question: I have a 400 hps and I'm probably going to buy a 600W as well. Would you suggest having the 400 over weeks 1-4 and the 600 over weeks 5-8? Or the other way around? I'm trying to think of when the plants would benefit the most from the greater light intensity.

you know anything about the bluelabs combo meters?