First kid on the block...

bravedave

bravedave

Well-Known Member
I know there are arguments about quality and quantity concerning these two light sources but for this exercise the premise is based purely on the fact that I have a 600W HID and was told that this:
http://www.cutter.com.au/proddetail.php?prod=cut2903
would give me equal or better the yields and that quality is more strain than light dependent.

I get better than a pound from by 600w so I will use a pound as the benchmark with the assumption that both setups will produce a pound of quality stuff each harvest.

So I have a warehouse that is already equipped with everything needed to work with either of these systems (Heat is not an issue, as much power as necessary is available, space is not an issue). Also, all other things being equal (strain(s), medium, nutes, etc.).

I have $10K available to purchase lights. The above LED system goes for about $900. My current 600W HID system with 2 bulbs (1 MH/ 1 HPS) cost me a little over $200 but for this argument we will just say $300.

So to get started I can either buy 10 LED systems or I can buy 30 HID systems(leaving myself with $1000 for incidentals).

I guess I could run this out to the 5 years that my Quantum Digital Ballast is warranted for (the above LED is warranted for 7 years so pretty much a wash), but I think you will understand my quandary or point out my burnt logic with the numbers after even just a year...

Say, I get three harvests a year. So after that first year, the LEDs have provided me 30 pounds while the HIDs have provided me 90 pounds.

Do you think the extra 60 pounds will make up for the extra power usage and bulb replacement?? :roll:
 
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bravedave

bravedave

Well-Known Member
PurpleBuz said:
probably wise to account for the reduced heat output as part of your comparison.
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Heat can be an asset too, so we have taken it out of the equation. Or if you want to include it, how many pounds takes care of ANY heat management disparity would you guess?
 
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PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
bravedave said:
Heat can be an asset too, so we have taken it out of the equation. Or if you want to include it, how many pounds takes care of ANY heat management disparity would you guess?
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agree heat can be an asset if your growing in unheated cold spaces. However there are more efficient ways to heat space.

But putting that aside. estimate the BTU output of your systems and calculate how much "cooling" you need. The lower total heat produced is significant perhaps ballparking at 30% lower than an hid system.

if you really want to get your grow up cheaply and don't care about amortizing it out over time, then by all means hid could be your best option.
 
Merkin Donor

Merkin Donor

Well-Known Member
Given the variables you've chosen It sounds like you have already answered your own question several times over on several threads. If you decide to run in an environment that you control as opposed to allowing outside weather dictate what you need you may find that there are significant savings in total cost when every watt matters.
 
bravedave

bravedave

Well-Known Member
I
Growmau5 said:
I think this is an interesting exercise for the larger scale growers. lets break down this diagram comparing to 4ft x 8ft trays

View attachment 3689755

For me personally, my metrics were 1200w hps vs 1200w HID
0.86gpw HPS // 1.4gpw led. there was a 648g yield increase with the LED using an older model cxa. results documented and published on YouTube " season 1 finale video"

So for ME. the 648 gram yield increase was compelling enough for me to make the switch to led 100%. In my market, the ROI was just that single run to pay back the investment in the LEDs
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Of course, yours really does not follow the argument's premise, but feel free to start a thread of your own. Oh and you would pay off your HID in one grow also.
 
puffenuff

puffenuff

Well-Known Member
I'd go with hps in your situation. Less start up costs and from what you say would get you 60 pounds more per year. Those 60 pounds will more than cover any accrued costs from running hps over led. After the first year you can then convert as little or much of your op to led as you wish. Just my opinion
 
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bravedave

bravedave

Well-Known Member
Merkin Donor said:
Given the variables you've chosen It sounds like you have already answered your own question several times over on several threads. If you decide to run in an environment that you control as opposed to allowing outside weather dictate what you need you may find that there are significant savings in total cost when every watt matters.
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It seems like you are not addressing the variables presented but instead are trying to insert ones that were not. Temps here are not an issue and if you wish to make them so at a disadvantage to HID then subtract it from the sixty pounds. .
 
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PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
sounds like a fly by night mercenary grower.
hopefully smart enough to sell of your grow space before the electric cost catches up to you.

good luck
bravedave said:
It seems like you are not addressing the variables presented but instead are trying to insert ones that were not. Temps here are not an issue and if you wish to make them so at a disadvantage to HID then subtract it from the sixty pounds. .
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problem is your premise clearly states that you do not want to amortize the cost over a reasonable lifespan.
if you really wanted to understand the ROI you would add 5x bulb changes over a 5 year period, and the life cost of an hvac system that would handle the extra heat for at least 5 years

meanwell warranties for 7 years is significantly different than a 5 year warranty. that pretty much guarantees a meanwell performing for 7 years at spec if you care too chase it., then you will


so like I say if you care about more than a year, then you will consider the full costs over the whole 5-7 year period.
 
bravedave

bravedave

Well-Known Member
Growmau5 said:
i have several of my own threads, starting a new one is not necessary to reference some hard data to try to help you with a decision that could end up saving you money and increasing your production longterm. And of course the HID would be paid off in one run, the point is 1200w of HID , lights paid off and 2lbs left over. 1200w LED grow, lights paid off and 3 lbs left over. I don't care what you end up buying or going with. But I posted about some real life data that is well documented, that you can feel free to reference if you desire. And I presented my previous message in a very polite way , evaluating only hard data of the two suggested strategies. I really don't appreciate the cunty tone of your reply, so good luck to you.

Argument's premise:
Can I grow more herb for cheaper with HID , I don't have to worry about heat or electric. Heat and electric are 2 of the main reasons to go LED. Then hell yes, buy a bunch of HIDs. If your state & grow space has a climate where heat is valuable, then yes go HID.
As another poster said, You probably had your mind made up before creating the thread. I am not attacking you, but i must point out some other variables that must be addressed.

-additional cost of HVAC for the months when you need it with HID. 18000 watts plus ballast heat is going to need 80,000 BTU/hr capacity. (6.6 tons) Maybe not all the time, in your cold environment, but when you need it, you need it.

- $200 for a dual bulb system, but lets say $300 for argument. I question the quality of hood and bulbs at this price point, even at qty 30 with a discount. but maybe its possible with a sweet heart deal to get a digital ballast, a mh & HPS bulb, and a respectable hood.

-assuming not aircooled, so we dont need to account for more expensive hoods, inline exhaust fans, ducting, or additional juice consumed by the fans. this is the assumption.
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Please point to anything I wrote that was "cunty". All I did was let you know that you hijacked the thread with something totally different. If you wanted to stay in the same realm but reduce the scale then you would have to compare 3HIDs to 1 LED. Price is the starting point, friend.
 
bravedave

bravedave

Well-Known Member
Growmau5 said:
oh absolutely. it takes time to pay off an led investment. and its a hell of a lot cheaper to get started with HID, thats a given.
Everybody around here knows exactly who these kits are for: people that can't pick out components for themselves, and cant or wont drill their own heatsinks. its a premium price kit to take the guess work out of getting into DIY. So we are comparing a low end HID system to a higher end kit system. a Vero29 or Citizen build at 2100ma would quickly bridge the price discrepancy gap. But we also must be fair and account for labor and time to assemble, build, drill, etc vs a ready to hang fixture.

Here is the other thing that is harder to quantify. Now I am not hatting on HPS, I have grown successfully with 600w & 1000w HID systems for the last 15 years in everything from closets to multiple warehouses, once managing 3 decent size warehouse grows at the same time.
Many local municipalities are cracking down and not awarding permits for HID grow operations while incentivizing and offering rebates for renewable energy & alternative lighting schemes.

Meanwhile, many news outlets are reporting falling prices in various markets.
http://www.thecannabist.co/2016/01/05/washington-state-weed-prices/45880/
So for the guy who wants to throw up some lights and get a few runs in a year and cash out, led makes no sense. But for someone that wants to compete in an aggressive market place, cost per gram of product (and always quality) will determine who survives.
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Whatever, the guy who provided me the link also provided individual entities also...adding them up actually came to about $900...the link to the kit was just easier to carry forward. Was just looking for an LED setup that was >= my 600w HID.

So after year 1, I have 60 more pounds than you. Even if half the profits went to needing more power/HVAC that still puts the HID at a 30 pound advantage going into year 2.

Funny, no business I have been a part of has ever worried about cost per gram. We like to concentrate on profit. And nothing I wrote suggests I was looking for in and out. That is just you trying to project a negative on me. You know, you being what you accuse me of. ;)
 
bravedave

bravedave

Well-Known Member
JorgeGonzales said:
OP is a complete dick, but these are solid numbers to discuss. Ignoring HVAC, where I live electricity costs an average of $.21 a kwh so that's a savings of $900 a year. With bulb replacements you are ahead of HPS in under 2 years.

Your kits are great, but it is possible to build for less money, and see an even faster ROI.

OP's problem is he can't afford to play. Oh well.
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Do I know you?

Your example is kind of short on facts. Math is hard though.
 
whitebb2727

whitebb2727

Well-Known Member
bravedave said:
Whatever, the guy who provided me the link also provided individual entities also...adding them up actually came to about $900...the link to the kit was just easier to carry forward. Was just looking for an LED setup that was >= my 600w HID.

So after year 1, I have 60 more pounds than you. Even if half the profits went to needing more power/HVAC that still puts the HID at a 30 pound advantage going into year 2.

Funny, no business I have been a part of has ever worried about cost per gram. We like to concentrate on profit. And nothing I wrote suggests I was looking for in and out. That is just you trying to project a negative on me. You know, you being what you accuse me of. ;)
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Business you been involved in? Like in growing veggies or pot?

Any smart business person would care what their cost per gram is.

Umm, was it not that long ago you were new here and working out the best setup for yourself?

Now you claim to have been part of multiple cannabis businesses?

I know. I know. You didn't say that but that's how it reads.

If you think cents, you will get cents. Think dollars, you get dollars.

You are thinking short term. Yea you know that hid does have an advantage over led in the short run.

What about 10, 15, 30 years from now? A smart person would take, let's say, 20% of the profit and invest in led.

Led is only going to get better. If you build your system right you can just swap cobs as they come out.

Any and every company is concerned with what it cost to make their product.

Hid has the advantage only for the short run.

If I were to start a facility, and I might for hemp, I would start with hid but for sure be led before it was over.
 
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