First grow- Yellow older leaves / rust spots

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bobcharlieeeee

Member
Hi Guys

First grow, Mephisto genetics, end of week 5 today. some of the fan leaves on a few plants have started to yellow,

My first thoughts is that it is Nitrogen deficiency, but there is some small rust coloured spots so im not sure.

Im using Biobizz all mix, with Grow and Bloom. Iv been Ph'ing the water to 6.2-6.5

The room is set to 25c, root temps are 22c, 24/7 light at 380ppfd

Any tips and any advice would be appreciated
 

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simpleleaf

simpleleaf

Well-Known Member
Perhaps it is calcium and magnesium deficient.

All the leaves are droopy, are you overwatering or giving too much fertilizer?

Edit, also see, Fe deficiency.

Edit2: PPFD.
 
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B

bobcharlieeeee

Member
simpleleaf said:
Perhaps it is calcium and magnesium deficient.

All the leaves are droopy, are you overwatering or giving too much fertilizer?

Edit, also see, Fe deficiency.

Edit2: PPFD.
Click to expand...
I have hard water i know i have high calcium, however im not sure on the Magnesium,

I havent kept a diary which is a major mistake, if im honest i dont know if iv under fed them or over fed them, iv followed the biobizz schedule pretty much, but gave half strength during week 3 because i thought i had nute burn. I think iv been too light with the grow, On sunday night they had 9.5l of water with 2ml/l of Bloom and 0.8ml/l of Grow, i watered last night as the pots were light and used 3ml/l of Bloom with 1ml/l of grow


I water every 3-4days, around 2l each, until the pots are very heavy and i get abit of dribble out the bottom, then dont water again until very very light. One of the plants in image 722 does seem droopy but i think its been like that since the beginning, if you look at the others in 721 they are not as droopy.

The PPFD is 380 at 24/7
 
B

bobcharlieeeee

Member
hotrodharley said:
How large are your containers? Twisting newer growth looks like possible root issues or pH.
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They are 3 gal pots, i have been PH'ing the water to 6.2 to 6.5.

I was told i shouldnt adjust PH in soil as it can cause issues, but iv also been told that not PH'ing causes issues.


There are some roots sticking out the bottom of the pots, but only a few, i should have filled the pots with more soil tbh, it sank alot more than i was expecting
 
OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
Those yellow centres in the grow tips says those girls are growing fast and because of that aren't getting enough nutes from the roots so stealing from the leaves. I'm not really up on the Bio-Bizz nutes but she's wanting some N and the spots in the yellow on the fans says low Mg so I'd be putting some Epsom Salts in their next feed. A tsp or 2 per gal should be plenty and you won't need to use it every time. Adds some sulphur there too they can keep for later to help with resin production.

Very minor problem and they look great otherwise.

:peace:
 
B

bobcharlieeeee

Member
OldMedUser said:
Those yellow centres in the grow tips says those girls are growing fast and because of that aren't getting enough nutes from the roots so stealing from the leaves. I'm not really up on the Bio-Bizz nutes but she's wanting some N and the spots in the yellow on the fans says low Mg so I'd be putting some Epsom Salts in their next feed. A tsp or 2 per gal should be plenty and you won't need to use it every time. Adds some sulphur there too they can keep for later to help with resin production.

Very minor problem and they look great otherwise.

:peace:
Click to expand...
TBH i think iv been under feeding N, as at the start in week 2 i thought i had some nute burn so backed off to half strength for the next week 3, then went full strength but watered with plain water a few times.


Last night i gave 3ml/l of Bloom and 1ml/l or Grow, hasnt done much so far, i think il up it to 2ml/l of grow for the next watering which should be saturday / sunday and see what happens,

Iv read about epsom salt foliar spray, will this achieve the same thing as adding it to the water?


Iv posted on other sites and they seem to think the plants are tiny for the age and that they are over watered, granted the plant in picture 722 does look over watered, the others dont seem to be drooping as bad as that one.

your the first person who has told me they look alright hahaha
 
OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
I was looking more at the leaf pics and now looking at the group shot and other full plant pics most do look a bit 'saggy'. Maybe a bit of overwatering going on. I was just down in my grow room where I have 7 plants in week 4 with 4 all burned up top. A too rich soil mix early on and two strains sensitive to light cooked them bad especially the GG#4. The Cherry Noir are less not happy and all have great growth just below the tops so will still get lots of bud. All organics in ProMix HP with some AN Big Bud for one more dose.

You don't really want to be spraying anything on young buds so just add it to the water. It works fast but won't make teh yellow go away. There isn't much yellow so snip off any damaged bits then you can easily see if any more yellows but give it a couple of days to kick in. Mix it in a small bottle first then add it to the bulk of the water as it is slow to dissolve. I mixed up a 9L batch to feed 3 plants with the BB and put two tsps Epsom in it along with some pure dextrose to feed the bio-herd in there tonight.

Too much N retards flowering and I got that big time with most of the plants down there. My CBD girl is stacking buds nicely tho on her way to big colas. The Pink Kush aren't doing bad either but smallish buds yet.

DWC was so much easier than this organic stuff but I'm getting the hang of it. :)

:peace:
 
B

bobcharlieeeee

Member
OldMedUser said:
I was looking more at the leaf pics and now looking at the group shot and other full plant pics most do look a bit 'saggy'. Maybe a bit of overwatering going on. I was just down in my grow room where I have 7 plants in week 4 with 4 all burned up top. A too rich soil mix early on and two strains sensitive to light cooked them bad especially the GG#4. The Cherry Noir are less not happy and all have great growth just below the tops so will still get lots of bud. All organics in ProMix HP with some AN Big Bud for one more dose.

You don't really want to be spraying anything on young buds so just add it to the water. It works fast but won't make teh yellow go away. There isn't much yellow so snip off any damaged bits then you can easily see if any more yellows but give it a couple of days to kick in. Mix it in a small bottle first then add it to the bulk of the water as it is slow to dissolve. I mixed up a 9L batch to feed 3 plants with the BB and put two tsps Epsom in it along with some pure dextrose to feed the bio-herd in there tonight.

Too much N retards flowering and I got that big time with most of the plants down there. My CBD girl is stacking buds nicely tho on her way to big colas. The Pink Kush aren't doing bad either but smallish buds yet.

DWC was so much easier than this organic stuff but I'm getting the hang of it. :)

:peace:
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I was SO confident in my watering ability! they have only been watered when light which is usually 3 days between watering's, and i water until i get a dribble of run off. But iv never experienced any underwatering symptoms, so perhaps i have been watering too much.

The reason i started in soil was that i was told DWC was difficult and soil is easy
 
OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
bobcharlieeeee said:
The reason i started in soil was that i was told DWC was difficult and soil is easy
Click to expand...
Different strokes for different folks. I started farting around with DWC in '01 and kind of came up with it on my own from a couple of High Times mags that talked about different hydro methods tho DWC wasn't really a thing then. I was at the library checking out a book on gardening and read about the floating gardens of Babylon and kind of put 2 and 2 together, went out and bought a tub, aquarium pump and made some mickey mouse net pots by drilling a bunch of holes in some little 3" pots from the hardware store. Some soluble 20-20-20 nutes and off I go.

Anyway it seemed to work great when the plants I was growing in soil never did much but cause me grief and yield like crap. Just did DWC for the next 18 years until about 3 years ago when I started switching over to ProMix with hydro nutes then adding manures etc and less salts and now easing into all organics or as close to it as I can get.

I'm getting the organics figured out and should get more consistent runs shortly so still plugging away at it. Works great outdoors the last couple years so just need to translate that into inside grows.

:peace:
 
XxCashedxOutxX

XxCashedxOutxX

Well-Known Member
Definitely overwatered which is causing other problems. You can tell the way the leaves droop it's not a limp droop it's more of an arched droop
 
B

bobcharlieeeee

Member
XxCashedxOutxX said:
Definitely overwatered which is causing other problems. You can tell the way the leaves droop it's not a limp droop it's more of an arched droop
Click to expand...
Think im getting somewhere, the light intensity was too strong, i must have knocked the dial on the light driver and not noticed, i think this was causing the stress, turned light back down and they have perked up, i was confident in my watering ability so this explains it. Just hope i havent set them back too much,
 
R

Roadblock007

Well-Known Member
bobcharlieeeee said:
Think im getting somewhere, the light intensity was too strong, i must have knocked the dial on the light driver and not noticed, i think this was causing the stress, turned light back down and they have perked up, i was confident in my watering ability so this explains it. Just hope i havent set them back too much,
Click to expand...
The light intensity is only showing you the root system is not very good, the more light the more root system needs to be there to drive the photosynthesis demand of the lights, as you lower the intensity the plant perks up because the demand on the roots is lower.

Plants the size of yours should be able to handle maximum light, it looks to me they have been overwatered or dried out too much between waterings which caused dieback of some roots and also creating problems, looking at your pots I can hardly see any root tips sticking out the fabric pot when there should be loads, having a struggling root system will cause all sorts of deficiencies which are secondary to the initial root issues.

I don't grow in soil but coco, I feel the basics are the same, build the root system by controlling moisture in the pot and keeping the light intensity low enough so the demand keeps the plant building roots effectively in balance with foliage production as it gets bigger everything increases, light- irrigation- nutrient, apply too much to soon slows root growth which creates a chain reaction of problems.

As soon as I have a plant that droops and shows leaf abnormality the first thing I do it back the lights off to lower the demand, and then start fault finding to find the cause, and 9/10 times it will lead to root issues, which can be over under irrigation, not enough air exchange in the room, pathogens, PH, unbalanced nutrients or excessive additives causing lockouts.
 
B

bobcharlieeeee

Member
Roadblock007 said:
The light intensity is only showing you the root system is not very good, the more light the more root system needs to be there to drive the photosynthesis demand of the lights, as you lower the intensity the plant perks up because the demand on the roots is lower.

Plants the size of yours should be able to handle maximum light, it looks to me they have been overwatered or dried out too much between waterings which caused dieback of some roots and also creating problems, looking at your pots I can hardly see any root tips sticking out the fabric pot when there should be loads, having a struggling root system will cause all sorts of deficiencies which are secondary to the initial root issues.

I don't grow in soil but coco, I feel the basics are the same, build the root system by controlling moisture in the pot and keeping the light intensity low enough so the demand keeps the plant building roots effectively in balance with foliage production as it gets bigger everything increases, light- irrigation- nutrient, apply too much to soon slows root growth which creates a chain reaction of problems.

As soon as I have a plant that droops and shows leaf abnormality the first thing I do it back the lights off to lower the demand, and then start fault finding to find the cause, and 9/10 times it will lead to root issues, which can be over under irrigation, not enough air exchange in the room, pathogens, PH, unbalanced nutrients or excessive additives causing lockouts.
Click to expand...
Everywhere i have read it say that plants this age cannot handle maximum light at this stage, its a mars hydro fc e 6500, are you saying 100% of the light? so turn the dial all the way to max?

I think i have overwatered them for a week or 2, but have now backed off and they are looking better


There are some roots sticking out the bottom,

Im trying to fault find at the moment

Iv attached more pics, they are less droopy but leaves still giving issues

Im thinking now its a Mg issue or Phosphorus

From my waterboard website it says 280mg/l for calcium and 2.7mg/l for magnesium which is way low
 

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R

Roadblock007

Well-Known Member
bobcharlieeeee said:
Everywhere i have read it say that plants this age cannot handle maximum light at this stage, its a mars hydro fc e 6500, are you saying 100% of the light? so turn the dial all the way to max?

I think i have overwatered them for a week or 2, but have now backed off and they are looking better


There are some roots sticking out the bottom,

Im trying to fault find at the moment

Iv attached more pics, they are less droopy but leaves still giving issues

Im thinking now its a Mg issue or Phosphorus

From my waterboard website it says 280mg/l for calcium and 2.7mg/l for magnesium which is way low
Click to expand...
Yes the light needs to be at an intensity where the plants remain turgid, that tells you the plant's roots in their ability to transpire are keeping up with the lights demand for growth, if you exceed that balance where the roots cannot keep up then the plant will droop to withhold water and then cannibalize itself to try and keep up with demand for growth, because the roots cant keep up the plant starts to create lockout because the nutes are becoming too salty hot and stagnant at the root tip, its a compounding situation.

Those pots should have loads of root tips, I mean nearly every 1/2 inch or more so your root system is not where it could be that's why they cannot handle full indoor light.

The color wont repair but new growth will come back pristine if you get the bottom end firing, just back of with everything until they start to rapid growth, could take a few days to a few weeks, weaker nutrients, lower light intensity, don't let them get to dry and don't overwater, if the environment is right they will take off, then a week or so after trim of all discolored old leaf then they will take pretty much all you can give them.

I don't think you have a nutrient availability problem as much as you have an uptake problem, by adding more individual additives you are only upsetting the balance even more so, additives are fine when the plant is in its best metabolic state it will be turning over so fast it doesn't get toxic, if the plant is sick or water stressed its metabolism slows way down so now things become toxic. You don't feed a baby or a sick person the food of an Olympic athlete, you got to have an optimized system to absorb otherwise it just clogs the pipes, a plant is only a pump, its roots a valve and the pump handle is the Sun.

Ive been caught out plenty of times by pushing the plant too hard to early, they need that early establishment to be like a beautiful spring day, mild with butterflys and birds chirping lol, you know what Im mean.

Good luck with it, I find a problem will generally take about two weeks to repair if you fix the cause.

I just realized your in flower that sets up another bunch of problems I thought you were grow, they wont repair anything so if you have any root pathogens it will pull your yield way back as they will be only wanting to finish flowering, you got to be looking out for Hermes also, its a grow that will only finish out at probably 60/70% of what its capable of, run her out learn by and get onto the next one.

This pretty much covers your problems.

Plant Moisture Stress - Symptoms and Solutions

PLANT MOISTURE STRESS - symptoms and solutions (revised Jan. 12, 2009) Quite often I hear groans from folks having leaf problems -> “Help, my leaves are cupping and the leaf edges are turning brown!”, or, “My plant's leaf tips are curling down and turning black ....what's...
www.rollitup.org
 
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OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
bobcharlieeeee said:
Everywhere i have read it say that plants this age cannot handle maximum light at this stage, its a mars hydro fc e 6500, are you saying 100% of the light? so turn the dial all the way to max?

I think i have overwatered them for a week or 2, but have now backed off and they are looking better


There are some roots sticking out the bottom,

Im trying to fault find at the moment

Iv attached more pics, they are less droopy but leaves still giving issues

Im thinking now its a Mg issue or Phosphorus

From my waterboard website it says 280mg/l for calcium and 2.7mg/l for magnesium which is way low
Click to expand...
The one plant with a few yellowing old fans looks like it could use a little N and maybe some Mg but the you have one pic with what looks like a bit of nute burn.

All in all they look pretty damn good so I'd just feed regular and add a tsp/gal epsom salts. I doubt they need any more Ca atm.

:peace:
 
B

bobcharlieeeee

Member
Roadblock007 said:
Yes the light needs to be at an intensity where the plants remain turgid, that tells you the plant's roots in their ability to transpire are keeping up with the lights demand for growth, if you exceed that balance where the roots cannot keep up then the plant will droop to withhold water and then cannibalize itself to try and keep up with demand for growth, because the roots cant keep up the plant starts to create lockout because the nutes are becoming too salty hot and stagnant at the root tip, its a compounding situation.

Those pots should have loads of root tips, I mean nearly every 1/2 inch or more so your root system is not where it could be that's why they cannot handle full indoor light.

The color wont repair but new growth will come back pristine if you get the bottom end firing, just back of with everything until they start to rapid growth, could take a few days to a few weeks, weaker nutrients, lower light intensity, don't let them get to dry and don't overwater, if the environment is right they will take off, then a week or so after trim of all discolored old leaf then they will take pretty much all you can give them.

I don't think you have a nutrient availability problem as much as you have an uptake problem, by adding more individual additives you are only upsetting the balance even more so, additives are fine when the plant is in its best metabolic state it will be turning over so fast it doesn't get toxic, if the plant is sick or water stressed its metabolism slows way down so now things become toxic. You don't feed a baby or a sick person the food of an Olympic athlete, you got to have an optimized system to absorb otherwise it just clogs the pipes, a plant is only a pump, its roots a valve and the pump handle is the Sun.

Ive been caught out plenty of times by pushing the plant too hard to early, they need that early establishment to be like a beautiful spring day, mild with butterflys and birds chirping lol, you know what Im mean.

Good luck with it, I find a problem will generally take about two weeks to repair if you fix the cause.

I just realized your in flower that sets up another bunch of problems I thought you were grow, they wont repair anything so if you have any root pathogens it will pull your yield way back as they will be only wanting to finish flowering, you got to be looking out for Hermes also, its a grow that will only finish out at probably 60/70% of what its capable of, run her out learn by and get onto the next one.

This pretty much covers your problems.

Plant Moisture Stress - Symptoms and Solutions

PLANT MOISTURE STRESS - symptoms and solutions (revised Jan. 12, 2009) Quite often I hear groans from folks having leaf problems -> “Help, my leaves are cupping and the leaf edges are turning brown!”, or, “My plant's leaf tips are curling down and turning black ....what's...
www.rollitup.org
Click to expand...
I think i underfilled the pots with soil, the all mix sank alot more on the first watering than i expected. Next grow i will be filling the pots with more soil, The plant middle right, was started in a small pot and transplanted, it has more soil in the pot and that the most healthy plant overall, i think the more soil has helped with the watering issue on that one plant.

I have reduce the amount of water i give and increased the duration between watering's, i actually think one day i left it slightly too long between watering's,

I have been giving 3ml bloom and 1ml grow per litre as i was convinced it was a Phosphorus / Potassium issue. and was given that advise on another forum, However leaves still continue to yellow so iv probably made it worse! Although might be too early to tell.

Iv since watered a couple of plants with plain water and 0.4g epsom salt per litre in the last hope it will help.

Cal/mag iv been told should be 3:1, mine is 100/1 !, iv also been recommended hard water nutrients


cant wait for this grow to finish now so i can start again!
 
B

bobcharlieeeee

Member
OldMedUser said:
The one plant with a few yellowing old fans looks like it could use a little N and maybe some Mg but the you have one pic with what looks like a bit of nute burn.

All in all they look pretty damn good so I'd just feed regular and add a tsp/gal epsom salts. I doubt they need any more Ca atm.

:peace:
Click to expand...
The yellowing is getting higher up the plants tbh, they look worse now! :(

Iv given some epsom salt now in the hopes it helps, Cal/mag iv been told should be 3:1, mine is 100/1
 
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