fatman's Medium Pressure Large Tube Aero Tutorial

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doc111

doc111

Well-Known Member
fatman7574 said:
I do not smoke pot anymore that is true. I quit smoking many 20 years a go that is true. I do grow mj for others that is true. I am forbidden by state law from holding a permit to grow medical mj for anyone. A fact, as I am a convicted drug felon. I have always grown mj since 1974, except while in prison. Even then my own growing is now limited to research and system designs, testing of new designs, seed production, nutrient research etc. I have tissue samples tested of all I grow so I am quite aware of what the systems are capable of doing. I also grow many things besides mj. No I do not smoke or sell the mj grown in my own home, but by state law I am allowed to grow the mj in my own home. No I myself as a drug felon can not grow even medical mj for others. That is against state law. I simply just don't talk about what I do with that which is grown in my own home. Even then I am in no way exempt from federal laws against growing mj for my self. The non profit organization I am associatted with grows only medical mj and distributes it only to licensed medical marijuana users that are members of the orgainization. They pay a $10 per month fee to the organization..Often that is all they pay for the mj they receive. the organization operates legally under state law and with a federal tax exemption so I really am not fearful of that involement. I see only the few medical MJ users that are members that show up at the Members annual board meeting. None typically show up at the regular monthly board meetings. I do not even know their names. They are known to be only by permit numbers. I do not deal with the clients. I am a consultant and an executive board member. I paid the initail fees, and lawyer cost to get the organization founded in 1986. The people actually doing the growing are contracted employees. The board members receive no pay, only employees. Ido not charge consulting fees to medical mj growers who possess permits to grow for others. Al consulations or sytem design woork other wise comes at a cost. These funds I donate to the non profit. Anything else yu want to know doc111. I aloso own an Environmental enginnering design and cossulation firm with full time three engineers on staff and two other unrelated businesses. My university salary alone assures me of adequatefumnds to do what ever I wish without worrying about money. The rest is just cream on the cake.

The other stystems I design for others are their business. I only assist in a consulatation manner after the designed system is constructed. Once they are constructed and in use I seldom have much involvment as they are typically just up sized (large) version of designs I build in a small scale Many of the designs start out in a university reserch lab. I am a Professorand resercher by occupation. The small scale vesrios designed in my home or the university lab are typiaccly sized more in line with what a small scale commercial growers need. They are easily down scaled from there but some efficiency is loss as things like CO2 systems and EC and pH controllers and pump or solenoid systems cost the same regardless of the system size to a large degree. If you did some resaech you would find that post information that knowinly is used by another individual to manafcture a controlled substance is conspiracy. set my limit of what chances I would takewhen I resumed posting to mj forums after my last stint in prison. I wil discuss sytems design and growing information and nutreint ifo etc to legal growers of medical mj. However I will not post photos of ready y to use systems, systems in use or products produced. If that is not acceptable to a perons or persons I suggest that the put me on their ignore list and remove this thread from their subscription list...

The picture posting topic is closed!!!!!!

Doc111: I had you on my ignore list for along time for good cause. For good cause you are now back on my ignore list. I would prefer you put me on your ignore list and remove this thread from your subscriptions list. Thank you.
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I don't care if you post pictures or not. I never mentioned having a problem with you not posting pictures. Hell, I don't post pictures too often either. See, I too am legal but understand the catch 22 us legal, medicinal users of cannabis find ourselves in with conflicting federal and state laws. You and I may not see eye to eye on many issues fatman but dissent is good. My only problem with you is your treatment of other members on here. You have been downright rude and abusive to countless members and IMO it's almost always uncalled for. I've read your posts where you say you aren't here to make friends and that you know you're an asshole. I don't think that excuses this type of behavior. You may be knowledgeable and have your little band of followers but you aren't the only game in town either. I won't put you on ignore because you don't bother me that much (since you don't care what others think of you, I'm puzzled by the fact that I bother you:?). I don't subscribe to threads, I simply follow the ones that interest me and when they cease to be interesting, I stop following them so don't worry fatdude, I am not subscribed to your thread. You don't own your thread, RIU owns it and if they see fit to keep me from it then I will oblige. Don't worry, I won't post in this thread anymore. I simply find you a fascinating yet perplexing individual. You say you don't care about what people say or think of you yet you write a book explaining why you don't care. That doesn't make sense. If you don't like me and don't want to read what I have to say then simply put me on ignore and don't remove me. I trully could care less.:roll:
 
F

fLaPzZ

Member
Good instructions Fatman, cheers. I've got very good friend who's a plumber and also alot better at DIY than me! I'm gonna study and think through this system and find where I can source the parts in the UK. I've always wanted to try med/high pressure aero. I'm sure I may need some advice at certain points. Can't wait to try it once it's finished.
 
squarepush3r

squarepush3r

Well-Known Member
Hi fatman

I was considering designing a medium pressure aero system using these buckets for tree grows. Its a 27 Gallon Heavy Duty bucket.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_44066-51438-2921-002_0_?newSearch=true&catalogId=10051&productId=3033542&Ntt=27+gallon&N=0&langId=-1&y=0&x=0&storeId=10151&Ntk=i_products&ddkey=http:SearchCatalogDisplay

892046000331lg.jpg

How many misters would you recommend for each tub (1 plant pet tub), and in what configuration? Would you recommend installign some sort of root supports in the middle of the bucket space for support?
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
Net pot. Elevate the reservoir so as to be able to drain from the bottom. Throw a piece of plastic light grating on the bottom with a layer of silk screen over that to keep roots out of standing water. Tilt thee resevor slightly to the drain placed in the bottom corner of the resrvoir. If using the 3/4 to 1 gph misters use about 4 misters mounted through the lid or inside on a loop of pipe. About 2 seconds of spray per every two minutes would be a good starting place for pre rooted clones. Use pots with no media or with a very open spaced media such as bio balls. Never an absorbent media such as rock wool. I prefer open roots in net pots with no media. If the sprayers reinside the tubs remember you are supplying moisture to the enire volume of the tub, not the roots specificlly. IE you are filling the entire tub with a mist of a size best utilized by the roots. you shouldnot intentionally try to spray the roots directly. It is best if you never even see much standing water accumulatte on the roots etc. It depends a lot on theplantheight you desire. For taller plants you catually need to over water the plany ts to lower the percentage of larteral and hair roots. Yes, using the sytem not at its highest efficincy allows for tallrpalnts. Run at the most efficientlvels thre palnts have shortinternodal spav cingtherefore they are shorter. This is what makes the system great for sog and fast cycle grows. It is like taking a 48 inch plant with all its branches but shortening the space between all the branches to 1/3 the normal distance. A 48" plant grown in a less efiicent system with a less efficient nutrient delivery system becomes a 16" to 18" tall plant in the more efficient system. Plus it does this quicker and has the same buds yield as the 48" plant, but wih no open spaces between the buds. IE just colas. The main side branches are cut off as clone stock when growing SOG. No side lighting is needed as horizonal lights can supply enough intensity to the shorter plants.
 
squarepush3r

squarepush3r

Well-Known Member
fatman7574 said:
Net pot. Elevate the reservoir so as to be able to drain from the bottom. Throw a piece of plastic light grating on the bottom with a layer of silk screen over that to keep roots out of standing water. Tilt thee resevor slightly to the drain placed in the bottom corner of the resrvoir. If using the 3/4 to 1 gph misters use about 4 misters mounted through the lid or inside on a loop of pipe. About 2 seconds of spray per every two minutes would be a good starting place for pre rooted clones. Use pots with no media or with a very open spaced media such as bio balls. Never an absorbent media such as rock wool. I prefer open roots in net pots with no media. If the sprayers reinside the tubs remember you are supplying moisture to the enire volume of the tub, not the roots specificlly. IE you are filling the entire tub with a mist of a size best utilized by the roots. you shouldnot intentionally try to spray the roots directly. It is best if you never even see much standing water accumulatte on the roots etc. It depends a lot on theplantheight you desire. For taller plants you catually need to over water the plany ts to lower the percentage of larteral and hair roots. Yes, using the sytem not at its highest efficincy allows for tallrpalnts. Run at the most efficientlvels thre palnts have shortinternodal spav cingtherefore they are shorter. This is what makes the system great for sog and fast cycle grows. It is like taking a 48 inch plant with all its branches but shortening the space between all the branches to 1/3 the normal distance. A 48" plant grown in a less efiicent system with a less efficient nutrient delivery system becomes a 16" to 18" tall plant in the more efficient system. Plus it does this quicker and has the same buds yield as the 48" plant, but wih no open spaces between the buds. IE just colas. The main side branches are cut off as clone stock when growing SOG. No side lighting is needed as horizonal lights can supply enough intensity to the shorter plants.
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yes, the medical laws in my state are more generous towards plants under the number 6. So tree grow has its appeal, but I do like the efficiencies of medium pressure aero and nice roots they give.
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
Just don't push the envelope and go for maximum efficiency and trees are easy enough. The fact that at the beginning of each spray cycle the pressure is lower than with a high pressure aero means an initial larger droplet size with every spray cycle. This means it causes some degree of oversaturation with every cycle. This is fine though as t is not as easy inadvertantly grow an excessive hair root ratio which leads to an inability to grow trees. This likelyhood is nearly eliminated with the medium pressure aero. It would take a specific effort to cause that ratio of hair roots in a medium pressure aero. One would likely need to put a solenoid on every single mister right at rhe mister as well as a solenoid at the pumps tee that are all operated on the same timer circuit to not cause the small amount of over saturation that prevents this over dwarfing caused by a too large ratio of hair roots.
 
squarepush3r

squarepush3r

Well-Known Member
hi Fatman. I don't think you are going to like this, but how about this idea for a hybrid system.

Using a large type bucket ~ 30 gallons, create a hybrid system
1) bottom 20% of the bucket water level will be recirculating high speed water.
2) the upper 80% of the bucket area will be medium pressure aeroponics.

So its essentially an aeroponic system, with the addition of the bottom portion being recirculating nutrients, for the purpose of fail-safe operation in case the lines/misters get blocked, or the solenoids/pump/recycle timer fail. In the case the aeroponic system fails for any reasons, the bottom portion of the roots will be in water and allowed to continue uptake of nutrients for a longer time until the problem is fixed. The upper 80% majority of the bucket will be empty space for the aeroponic misters to flood with mist every 10 minutes. This will allow for a large portion of highly developed root system and retaining many benefits of aeroponics.
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
That is often done in research and some smaller commercial operations just for the reasons you mention. It is of course iis a ststem in efficiency and yields in between the two systems results if set up seperately. Resarcher typically run about 25% to 40% DWC and shoot for high hair root ratios on the aero roots. A 32 gallon trash can lid if 30 inches in diameter would have almost 5 square feet of lid area. One 24 50 watt light per trash can would be ggod. That would mean 20 sog plants or 5 larger plants per can. Just use uniseals to run the pump plumbing. As long ast you used gate valves instead of cheaply poorly adjustable ball valves you could use just one Iwaki high pressure pump for several set ups, probably abouy 4 trash cans (barrels) with one 1000 watt light. Just use distributer fittings to branch out the water lines and return lines from the DWC and the balancing should be easy enough. Also tie each barrel together seperately with pipes so the water levels remain the same.

http://www.flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?product=PVC-Manifolds-Distributors

Good bio ball prices for thosewanting to use media in their ner=t pots with trees in aero sytems.

http://www.flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?product=BioBalls
 
squarepush3r

squarepush3r

Well-Known Member
another question for Fatman. I've been researching Solenoids.

Will a 3/2 Solenoid work as a simple all in 1 to handle our needs?

http://www.jaksa.si/English/index4_en.html
nacini2.gif

I've been a bit confused on what exactly a 3/2 solenoid valve is, and how it differs from a 3 way valve or if they are the same.

This is the model I am looking at
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-3-2-Norgren-Herion-1-2-Solenoid-Valve-8020871-/350357671932?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5192f1cffc


Also, more questions on your fittings. By the way I am going to make your system, or something close to it. I already placed a bid on an Iwaki pump on ebay and rounding up the other parts now. So, you will see something in action in several weeks very likely.

Can you explain more how you use these fittings?
the 3/8 x 1/4 x 3/8 (call this fitting A)
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-3030-reducing-tee-polypro-38-x-14-x-38.aspx

and the
1/4 x 1/4 x 1/4 (call this fitting B)
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-2978-union-tee-polypro-14.aspx

this is how I think it works , ignore the ... its just for placeholder.
<----------------A-----------------> (3/8 feed line)
...................|
...................|<- 1/4 feed line
...................B
................../ \ <- 2x 1/4 feed line
................./...\
..........mister...mister <- 2 misters

so, the 3/8th lines branches off with A to the 1/4th line, then the B branches off to the 2 misters?
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
squarepush3r said:
another question for Fatman. I've been researching Solenoids.

Will a 3/2 Solenoid work as a simple all in 1 to handle our needs? The 3 port two way valve such as that is one inlet and two outlets. Both outlets open and close together. They make divertor valves (Plastomatic) that has one inlet and two outlets. It has either one or the other open, not both at the same time. They are expensive and seldom sold surplus on eBay. The top of the line plastic Solenoid valves are Hayward Valves: http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=m570&_nkw=hayward+solenoid It really with drain to waste not reqi uire plastic valves but with any recirculating system plastic is preferable as they have a much higher lifespan and they do not leach copper into the nutrients. mj has a low tolerance for copper.

http://www.jaksa.si/English/index4_en.html
View attachment 962977

I've been a bit confused on what exactly a 3/2 solenoid valve is, and how it differs from a 3 way valve or if they are the same.

This is the model I am looking at
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-3-2-Norgren-Herion-1-2-Solenoid-Valve-8020871-/350357671932?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5192f1cffc


Also, more questions on your fittings. By the way I am going to make your system, or something close to it. I already placed a bid on an Iwaki pump on ebay and rounding up the other parts now. So, you will see something in action in several weeks very likely.

Can you explain more how you use these fittings?
the 3/8 x 1/4 x 3/8 (call this fitting A)
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-3030-reducing-tee-polypro-38-x-14-x-38.aspx

and the
1/4 x 1/4 x 1/4 (call this fitting B)
http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-2978-union-tee-polypro-14.aspx

this is how I think it works , ignore the ... its just for placeholder.
<----------------A-----------------> (3/8 feed line)
...................|
...................|<- 1/4 feed line
...................B
................../ \ <- 2x 1/4 feed line
................./...\
..........mister...mister <- 2 misters

so, the 3/8th lines branches off with A to the 1/4th line, then the B branches off to the 2 misters?
Click to expand...
I will post a drawing later this evening. I have a meeting I must attend that starts in 35 mimutes.
 
I

Intenzity

Member
Just go here -

http://www.stinkbuddies.com

It is the same basic system, but that site has parts lists, diagrams, pictures etc. The only difference is change the the gutters to a big box it sounds like.

This is not a new design here. It is very very common and well documented all over the internet and other grow sites.
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
This is a sketch of the feeder line for a pair of tubes first intersection for two misters. The 3/8" tube lays betwwen two tubes and a Tee fitting 3/8" x 1/4" x 3/8" is installed for each pair of misters, an approxoimatte 3" riser of 1/4" tube is inserted and a 1/4" x 1/4" x 1/4" Tee is installedd on that. A piece of 1/4" tubing is installed on that that is approx 4.25" long. A 90 degree 1/4" x 1/4" fitting is installed on the ends of each 1/4" pipe. A short 1/4" tube is installed on the end of the 90 degree fitting and the mister is installed on that. Continue down the line and use a 3/8" union at the end and install either a 3/8" plug on that or just run a 3/8" diamter tube to the other identical lay out used for the other two tubes.

Scan0017.jpg
 
squarepush3r

squarepush3r

Well-Known Member
fatman7574 said:
This is a sketch of the feeder line for a pair of tubes first intersection for two misters. The 3/8" tube lays betwwen two tubes and a Tee fitting 3/8" x 1/4" x 3/8" is installed for each pair of misters, an approxoimatte 3" riser of 1/4" tube is inserted and a 1/4" x 1/4" x 1/4" Tee is installedd on that. A piece of 1/4" tubing is installed on that that is approx 4.25" long. A 90 degree 1/4" x 1/4" fitting is installed on the ends of each 1/4" pipe. A short 1/4" tube is installed on the end of the 90 degree fitting and the mister is installed on that. Continue down the line and use a 3/8" union at the end and install either a 3/8" plug on that or just run a 3/8" diamter tube to the other identical lay out used for the other two tubes.

View attachment 963512
Click to expand...
makes perfect sense now, this system actually seems rather simple. I am eager to get my parts so i can start running some test configurations and eventually get a working model.
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
Intenzity said:
It is the same basic system, but that site has parts lists, diagrams, pictures etc. The only difference is change the the gutters to a big box it sounds like.

This is not a new design here. It is very very common and well documented all over the internet and other grow sites.
Click to expand...
Ha, ha, you try to be a funny boy child, huh?

Dude, what are you talking about. Are you really saying what it sounds like. His system is a small tube, low pressure system, that is in no way the same as the medium pressure, large tube, misting aero system using a drain to waste nutrient supply system. Your trying to compare stinkbuds system made with sprayers that trickle out streams of water into 4" square tubes/fence posts where roots lay piled up deeply in water that does not supply adequate DO to most of the roots. Even the extar NFT water is inadequate to the task of proving adequate DO to all the roots. His system is fed by a cheap, high volume, low pressure, pump putting out probably 2 to 5 psi of pressure when the manufacturers states these high volume 8 to 10 gph sprayers require 15 to 30 psi of water. He is using a recirculating reservoir system fraught with nutrient inbalance and buffers issues that mean the plants are poorly supplied with nutrients.

The design I have laid out in this write up has tubes deep enough that the system has its roots suspended in air as an aero roots are supposed to do. The system is fed by a pump delivering 44 psi pressure to misters that require 35 to 80 psi, not 2 to 5 psi to sprayers requiring over 15 to 30 psi as in stinkbuds a in a n aero system. My ssy tem spraysa nutrient waterdroplets specific to the mneeds of thepalants. They are low volume misters, that spray a mist. Their flow range is either 3/4 gph or 1 gph, not someinsane 8 to 10 gallon per hours stream and trickles of water. Dude there is no system such as this aywhere else in the forums. It is a new design that I used for years and designed for commercial grower use. I introduced to the forums Dude.

Stinkbuds aero/NFT system is not his system, it is simply a copy of systems that preceded his.

My system is not like his or a copy of anyone elses system in this forum or any other Dude.

His providing lists and diagrams to build an obviously poorer system way past its once meager prime does not improve it nor make it comparable to better systems such as the one I have just laid out in this write up Dude.

Dude you have a lot to learn if you think the systems are comparable or that my system design is simply the same as stinkbud's but with larger tubes. Read and learn child, read and learn. Maybe I should put it on a $1 CD and sell it for $25. That's real class. A CD of an illicit drug growing system and operation. Maybe he is not a US resident.
 
F

fdd2blk

Well-Known Member
fatman7574 said:
Ha, ha, you try to be a funny boy child, huh?

Dude, what are you talking about. Are you really saying what it sounds like. His system is a small tube, low pressure system, that is in no way the same as the medium pressure, large tube, misting aero system using a drain to waste nutrient supply system. Your trying to compare stinkbuds system made with sprayers that trickle out streams of water into 4" square tubes/fence posts where roots lay piled up deeply in water that does not supply adequate DO to most of the roots. Even the extar NFT water is inadequate to the task of proving adequate DO to all the roots. His system is fed by a cheap, high volume, low pressure, pump putting out probably 2 to 5 psi of pressure when the manufacturers states these high volume 8 to 10 gph sprayers require 15 to 30 psi of water. He is using a recirculating reservoir system fraught with nutrient inbalance and buffers issues that mean the plants are poorly supplied with nutrients.

The design I have laid out in this write up has tubes deep enough that the system has its roots suspended in air as an aero roots are supposed to do. The system is fed by a pump delivering 44 psi pressure to misters that require 35 to 80 psi, not 2 to 5 psi to sprayers requiring over 15 to 30 psi as in stinkbuds a in a n aero system. My ssy tem spraysa nutrient waterdroplets specific to the mneeds of thepalants. They are low volume misters, that spray a mist. Their flow range is either 3/4 gph or 1 gph, not someinsane 8 to 10 gallon per hours stream and trickles of water. Dude there is no system such as this aywhere else in the forums. It is a new design that I used for years and designed for commercial grower use. I introduced to the forums Dude.

Stinkbuds aero/NFT system is not his system, it is simply a copy of systems that preceded his.

My system is not like his or a copy of anyone elses system in this forum or any other Dude.

His providing lists and diagrams to build an obviously poorer system way past its once meager prime does not improve it nor make it comparable to better systems such as the one I have just laid out in this write up Dude.

Dude you have a lot to learn if you think the systems are comparable or that my system design is simply the same as stinkbud's but with larger tubes. Read and learn child, read and learn. Maybe I should put it on a $1 CD and sell it for $25. That's real class. A CD of an illicit drug growing system and operation. Maybe he is not a US resident.
Click to expand...



i politely asked him over and over, and over, and over again to stop with the insults.

i don't care how smart you feel you are, this type of attitude is not welcome here.
 
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