DWC Root Slime Cure aka How to Breed Beneficial Microbes

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
After getting Slimmed a while back I started using this tea in my rdwc. Worked great at first, but I didn't keep up the maintenance doses like I should, only once a week at best. Then ph started dropping and roots browning (no slime). So I brewed some tea and was sure to dose every 3 days this time, but it didn't beat the rot-just slowed it down. If my ph stabilized it would be for a day at best, and never a sign of white roots. Read about pondzyme and aquasheild and tried that. Same results. Been battling this for over a month now.

Read a couple threads about using bleach in your rez and even tried that a couple days ago(1/2 ml. per gal). Seems to be working somewhat in one of my flowering systems (the other ones empty waiting for me to cure my girls in veg). In my veg system the girls wilted for a day and gave me a scare (but the ph stabilized that day). Second day with bleach in the system checked on them and they looked happy, until I looked in on the roots. SLIME :wall: So I drained the system, washed the girls off and gave them plain water with pondzyme and aquashield, oh and ZHO. Then started a batch of tea. My recipe is the mycogrow soluble and ancient forest and add zho to the rez with the tea.

Temps are a steady 68-69 and I have no light leaks that I can find (even place poly over the hydroton) I'm at my wits end in beating my root problems. I'm adding 20-30 ml a day of ph up just to keep it in range and it's becoming "not fun" anymore. I'm close to giving up and going to soil.

What am I doing wrong? I have everything else pretty close to dialed in, but my root problems won't go away no matter what I've tried. H2O2, tea, pondzyme, aquashield, bleach- it all slows it down but nothing seems to defeat it! Remember, I'm talking about non-slime rot here, the tea defeated the slime when I had it before. I'm open to suggestion (which is pretty obvious since I even tried bleach!!). Please help!! I love my rdwc and don't want to give it up!
Any reason you are using PH up instead of tap water? Using that much adjuster could be part of the problem. What has your Ph range been? I am noticing a pattern here with RDWC and non-slime rot. As i've said before, inadequate oxygen in the water is the main suspect when dealing with non-slime pathogens. In my experience damaged roots may not come back themselves, but any time I have brown ugly roots without slime, adding an additional airstone directly under the roots has always stimulated new growth. The exception is when plants have been rotted up to the root crown. I have had a few over the years that just will not produce new roots, even when their res mates had come back and flourished.

Beyond that I can only suggest closely examining your products and methods.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Just one more noob question for the moment, I promise (Edit: Okay, two). I recently started adding fulvic acid to the reservoirs, and the plants seemed to like it a lot. I am concerned however, that it may be pathogen food in the res. Should I maybe break it down in the tea first? My current situation would indicate that it's not a problem. One of my 6-bucket rdwc's took a shit today, and emptied the res. out on the floor, via one of the buckets. I picked up the plant/ lid and found an absolute 5 gallon bucket mold of snow white roots. Seems the biggest problem with winning the war on root rot in rdwc is how to keep the bucket drain clear of roots! Any suggestions on that one would be equally appreciated!

Finally, I want to say thank you again, for the thousandth time Mr.Heisenberg. You surely haven't heard it every time, because it's usually uttered under my breath, as I watch my grow improve. It's taken around 6 weeks to get to this point, but adherence to the tea program has definitely been the key to the winning hand. I know I('m not totally out of the woods yet, nor will I ever be, but I'm definitely back on the crest of the wave, with about 85% of the credit going to the tea, and your "preaching" it.

I believe DWC to be one of the most productive models for hydroponics, but it simply won't work without a viable plan to beat the pathogens. Heisenberg, I see that you have put countless hours into personal research, trials, posting, answering, etc. , and it doesn't go unappreciated my friend. I put everything I had into this system, and it would have been nothing but a waste if I hadn't found this thread. You have absolutely saved my world. Thank you x1001.


Grow well,
B.B.
Thanks for the compliments. I am glad the tea is still helping people. It's nice to know i've helped kill slime in dozens of different grows because it robs so much from people and of course the plants. Sounds like the fulvic acid isn't causing problems. If something is slime food the results usually happen very quickly. In some cases it will explode in as little as 12 hours. Microbes actually produce small amounts of fulvic acid, so it's more like a digestive aid to them than a food. Adding it to the tea will not change it's effect, so it's unnecessary.
 

alipasa

Member
Thank you for the support Heisenberg I'm going a bit off the topic but I'm spending too much on nutes and have some questions.
Have you guys heard the company maxsea (nutrient company)? It was recommended from a very good friend from the west coast , he claims it's the easiest to use, no need to add millions of additives , it's a one part program for veg and 1 part flower .thinking about getting rid of h&g . Any thoughts ? And 1 millions dollars cheaper , costs close to nothing.
Also Heisenberg I added my new batch of tea to my garden 1 cup for every gallon yesterday and 20 hours after I added a&b from h&g . When should I add the rest of my additives ? I know you said introduce them slowly but not sure when. Thanks for the support , don't know how to thank you . Much appreciated!
 
Hey there Heisenberg

Hope this is in the right spot my first posting ...anyway been reading the thread Im on like page 86 but I had to thank you I had the bad slime and thanks to you and everyone else I am cured and back on track I have dumped multiple crops in frustration before finding this thread. Now my girls are coming back with a vengance. Again Thanks to you all!
 
also for those looking for a great alternative to the sock you can try paint strainers from any hardware store I cut the 5 gal ones down put my handful of AF and ziptie it closed mesh is big enough to allow flow but small enough to contain all but the smallest particles
 

tallen

Well-Known Member
Any reason you are using PH up instead of tap water? Using that much adjuster could be part of the problem. What has your Ph range been? I am noticing a pattern here with RDWC and non-slime rot. As i've said before, inadequate oxygen in the water is the main suspect when dealing with non-slime pathogens. In my experience damaged roots may not come back themselves, but any time I have brown ugly roots without slime, adding an additional airstone directly under the roots has always stimulated new growth. The exception is when plants have been rotted up to the root crown. I have had a few over the years that just will not produce new roots, even when their res mates had come back and flourished.

Beyond that I can only suggest closely examining your products and methods.
Actually never thought to use tap water for ph up. I know one time I had to use 1/2 tap and 1/2 RO because I forgot to refill my storage barrel and had to use a butload of ph down to get it under 6.5 (my tap water apparently has hella buffers in it!). As far a air, I use commercial pumps and without plants in there it looks like a rolling boil so I'm getting plenty of air. I try to keep my ph close to 5.8 but when it's dropping I'll put it to 6.0 or a little higher to keep it above 5.5 before my next daily adjustment.

I'm getting a decent amount of new white roots in my veg system and the ph has been going up instead of down in both systems the last few days which is actually a 1st for me. The best I could hope for in the past is for it to hold steady or drop slowly, even when the plants(and roots) looked healthy. The girls in flower (running sterile atm)aren't putting out any new roots, but they're 6 weeks in and the roots they do have are looking better every day so I'm happy with that.

My nutes are dynagro grow, bloom, protekt, and magpro. nothing else goes in except for bennies or bleach (which I'm trying in flower and seems to be working ok). Anyway, you've saved my grow a couple times and want to say thanks!! I just hope I can solve this once and for all instead of limping through each grow to a substandard harvest due to root problems.
 

zeusdog007

Active Member
It's an honor to finally post a worthy message on this thread...what I consider to be one of the best threads out there on DWC and Brown slime...(the other good one is by RitchieRich which I will post this there also).


In late 2010 I got my legal license and started a DWC system (~40 buckets, too big for an individual bucket system IMO) after being out of the game for about five years; it looked like a great concept. First pull was pretty good (2#/1000W/8wks) but there was one plant in the system that was stunted and had yucky brown roots, all others were a typical tan color. The second run was a complete disaster (0.5#/1000W/8ks); brown slime on all the roots. Then again, and again...AAAARRGGHH. I read almost all the posts regarding DWC and brown slime (starting with this great thread back when there were only 75 pages or so). That shit f#$@ed me up so bad I wanted to put a BUD to my head and pull the trigger!! But, momma ain't raised no quitter...so...

I read some more of these type of threads and soon realized 90% of the people on these forums have little to no logic (maybe due to their meds??). So I went back to university and took a couple botany classes (already have a physics degree and electrical engineering degree, not that they helped me here)...and...wait for it...

I have tried:

-chillers,
-tea (Heisenberg's recipe),
-H202 (hydrogen peroxide),
-physan20,
-bleach (I stunk so much my kids all thought I was swimming),
-Ridomil Gold,
-Actinovate,
-PrevicurN,
-Aquashield,
-Subdue Maxx,
-ZHO powder,
-Erythromycin,
-Rhapsody,
-Truban,
-praying to god,
-posting on these forums,
-nute variations

etc etc... these are ALL RIGHT!! and kinda ALL WRONG!! lol...the secret???...

I eventually gave up on DWC, but not completely, I had to keep some buckets around until I solved the problem ('member what I said a bout mamma!!!)...here it is...

From DAY1 you really need to protect your roots with some form of beneficial fungi (funguy or funji, either is fine, lol) and grow the roots and the fungi TOGETHER (the absolute key is prevention). Hydro stores (the biggest rip off businesses besides government and cell phone companies) will sell some brands but never really ever tell you what's in it because then you can go buy it for 5-10 cents on the dollar! But the one that did work extremely well (for me, yours may be different) was AQUASHILED from Botanicare (this was part of Heisneburg's recipe which I of course tried with moderate success). On my last run with the DWC I used Aquashield from day one and never chilled the water (got up to 83F), never even changed the nutes (just kept adding and let the extra spill out of an overflow hole (drilled at the right height so as to prevent overfilling)). I added fresh nutes with Dosmatic dosers. I ended up taking out my 400HP diesel air pump (yes, i'm joking but it was huge) and went to a 'relatively' tiny one. Lo and behold, beautiful white roots all the way through and a great yield (2+#/1000W/8wks). And then I ripped the rest of the DWC system out and sent it to hell with a good kick in the ass.

Remember, IMO, all the discussion of brown slime in RWC are likely different types of water molds (Oomycetes), diatoms, fungi, and bacterias...or you may have a suite of them. These all come from water wells, your ass (nope, not kidding), your lunch (soon to be at your ass), the air, the dirt outside. One thing I learned in all those botany classes is that these little microbes ARE EVERYWHERE (from your gf's box to your mammas armpit...everywhere)!!! This is why different solutions are working for different people and some are not. However, a shield such as Aquashield can protect from many of these. Another to look at closely is Trichoderma Harzianum (sold as Rootshield (granules or wettable powder) but not at hydro stores, careful it has a shelf life)...(http://www.bioworksinc.com/products/shared/rootshield.pdf)


Now I use rockwool cubes (hugos and bigmammas) with a drain to waste system and the Rootshield mentioned above. WAY WAY easier because I can move buckets around, empty the room completely and quickly between crops, no F#$%ing leaks, etc. I do not use Aquashield because I have no idea what it is; screw you Botanicare. This is why they, and many other manufacturer's, always show a 'token' nutrient value (0.02-0.04-0.01 for Aquashield) on their products, because then they can sell it as a nutrient which requires a 'guaranteed minumum' nutrient level for the NPK, however if they sold it as a 'treatment' they would have to list the 'active ingredient' along with its concentration.

I think Heisenburg's tea works great but it's like a fragmentation grenade...a whole bunch of functional little death shards but no real precision. 'Kinda' like having a headache and taking aspirin, tylenol, ibuprofen, tums, peptobismol etc just to make sure you get that headache taken care of. So the tea is a great place to start and get some instant results. However I wanted a more sniper like approach, difficult without an exact identification of the pathogen one is dealing with however.

That's my take, but hey it's just some friendly advice...do whatever the F#@$ you wanna do! (Hodgetwins quote lol)

Good luck to all and Merry Christmas 2012!!!

Cheers
 

Ninjabowler

Well-Known Member
It's an honor to finally post a worthy message on this thread...what I consider to be one of the best threads out there on DWC and Brown slime...(the other good one is by RitchieRich which I will post this there also).


In late 2010 I got my legal license and started a DWC system (~40 buckets, too big for an individual bucket system IMO) after being out of the game for about five years; it looked like a great concept. First pull was pretty good (2#/1000W/8wks) but there was one plant in the system that was stunted and had yucky brown roots, all others were a typical tan color. The second run was a complete disaster (0.5#/1000W/8ks); brown slime on all the roots. Then again, and again...AAAARRGGHH. I read almost all the posts regarding DWC and brown slime (starting with this great thread back when there were only 75 pages or so). That shit f#$@ed me up so bad I wanted to put a BUD to my head and pull the trigger!! But, momma ain't raised no quitter...so...

I read some more of these type of threads and soon realized 90% of the people on these forums have little to no logic (maybe due to their meds??). So I went back to university and took a couple botany classes (already have a physics degree and electrical engineering degree, not that they helped me here)...and...wait for it...

I have tried:

-chillers,
-tea (Heisenberg's recipe),
-H202 (hydrogen peroxide),
-physan20,
-bleach (I stunk so much my kids all thought I was swimming),
-Ridomil Gold,
-Actinovate,
-PrevicurN,
-Aquashield,
-Subdue Maxx,
-ZHO powder,
-Erythromycin,
-Rhapsody,
-Truban,
-praying to god,
-posting on these forums,
-nute variations

etc etc... these are ALL RIGHT!! and kinda ALL WRONG!! lol...the secret???...

I eventually gave up on DWC, but not completely, I had to keep some buckets around until I solved the problem ('member what I said a bout mamma!!!)...here it is...

From DAY1 you really need to protect your roots with some form of beneficial fungi (funguy or funji, either is fine, lol) and grow the roots and the fungi TOGETHER (the absolute key is prevention). Hydro stores (the biggest rip off businesses besides government and cell phone companies) will sell some brands but never really ever tell you what's in it because then you can go buy it for 5-10 cents on the dollar! But the one that did work extremely well (for me, yours may be different) was AQUASHILED from Botanicare (this was part of Heisneburg's recipe which I of course tried with moderate success). On my last run with the DWC I used Aquashield from day one and never chilled the water (got up to 83F), never even changed the nutes (just kept adding and let the extra spill out of an overflow hole (drilled at the right height so as to prevent overfilling)). I added fresh nutes with Dosmatic dosers. I ended up taking out my 400HP diesel air pump (yes, i'm joking but it was huge) and went to a 'relatively' tiny one. Lo and behold, beautiful white roots all the way through and a great yield (2+#/1000W/8wks). And then I ripped the rest of the DWC system out and sent it to hell with a good kick in the ass.

Remember, IMO, all the discussion of brown slime in RWC are likely different types of water molds (Oomycetes), diatoms, fungi, and bacterias...or you may have a suite of them. These all come from water wells, your ass (nope, not kidding), your lunch (soon to be at your ass), the air, the dirt outside. One thing I learned in all those botany classes is that these little microbes ARE EVERYWHERE (from your gf's box to your mammas armpit...everywhere)!!! This is why different solutions are working for different people and some are not. However, a shield such as Aquashield can protect from many of these. Another to look at closely is Trichoderma Harzianum (sold as Rootshield (granules or wettable powder) but not at hydro stores, careful it has a shelf life)...(http://www.bioworksinc.com/products/shared/rootshield.pdf)


Now I use rockwool cubes (hugos and bigmammas) with a drain to waste system and the Rootshield mentioned above. WAY WAY easier because I can move buckets around, empty the room completely and quickly between crops, no F#$%ing leaks, etc. I do not use Aquashield because I have no idea what it is; screw you Botanicare. This is why they, and many other manufacturer's, always show a 'token' nutrient value (0.02-0.04-0.01 for Aquashield) on their products, because then they can sell it as a nutrient which requires a 'guaranteed minumum' nutrient level for the NPK, however if they sold it as a 'treatment' they would have to list the 'active ingredient' along with its concentration.

I think Heisenburg's tea works great but it's like a fragmentation grenade...a whole bunch of functional little death shards but no real precision. 'Kinda' like having a headache and taking aspirin, tylenol, ibuprofen, tums, peptobismol etc just to make sure you get that headache taken care of. So the tea is a great place to start and get some instant results. However I wanted a more sniper like approach, difficult without an exact identification of the pathogen one is dealing with however.

That's my take, but hey it's just some friendly advice...do whatever the F#@$ you wanna do! (Hodgetwins quote lol)

Good luck to all and Merry Christmas 2012!!!

Cheers
Looked at the root shield link you posted.
Do you start it from day 1 like you did with the aquashield?
does it affect ph?
do you continuously add it with every new watering or does it stick around?
how long does it last in the system for? And will it eventually break down and cause problems?
is there signs for having to much or to little?
thanks for the tips, and merry christmas to you too.
Cinderella story. Outta nowhere. A former greenskeeper, now, about to become the Masters champion..bill murry..caddyshack
 

Chopsticks33

Active Member
I been using tea for a while but recently my ph has been dropping from 5.8 to 4.3 over night after adding 4 gal of tea in to my 300 gal reservoir . any know why? I use up my 1 gal ph up in couple days.
 

zeusdog007

Active Member
Looked at the root shield link you posted.
Do you start it from day 1 like you did with the aquashield?
does it affect ph?
do you continuously add it with every new watering or does it stick around?
how long does it last in the system for? And will it eventually break down and cause problems?
is there signs for having to much or to little?
thanks for the tips, and merry christmas to you too.
Cinderella story. Outta nowhere. A former greenskeeper, now, about to become the Masters champion..bill murry..caddyshack

Yes, I start from day1 (day1 being the day you transplant your rooted clone) with Rootshield granules. I do not use Rootshield to clone as I dont think the fungi have anywhere to colonize yet.

Then I use it again when I transplant my 4" cube onto the bigger 8" cube (Rootshield granules again). Rootshiled is sprinkled onto the top of the 8" before the 4" is placed on it.

Then I use Rootshield WP (wettable powder) to drench at about 6 weeks after transplanting the 4" onto the 8". I think the manufacturer claims 10-12 weeks between inoculations (treatments) but it's simply too hard to get in near the pot (pot with 8" cube in it) because the plants are simply too huge . I do not run it through the dripper system because it tends to plug my 0.5L/hr drippers.

I have only noticed a very slight affect from the Rootshield WP to pH with Reverse Osmosis water; hardly any effect to hard (500+ppm CaCO3) or even slightly hard (250 ppm CaCO3) water.

I poured a crapload of extra Rootshield granules (probably 50x regular dose) on a plant (to the top of the 4" and 8" cube) to check for phytotoxicity and the plant is fine after 5 weeks; kinda the joy of biologicals, but not always the case I assume.


If my story seems Cinderella your right but unfortunately I'm at the point in the story where I've left the ball and am now waiting for prince charming. I say this for two reasons: firstly, I never ever ever had problems before and secondly, now that my root zone problems are solved I am still trying to find ways to make my Purple Kush tops bigger. I'm stuck with small (tiny!) tops but perfect middles and bottoms but still getting a good yield (and crystals everywhere). If I could make the tops fill out I think I'd add another 25% to my yield.

I have friends with the same strain of PK (we share clones) and they are getting some nice tops but no bottoms. And, I had a couple Sativas in my room and they had huge Donkey C#$ks right beside my pitiful almost non existent PK tops (somewhat proving enviro conditions aren't far off base). I much much prefer the indicas. And of course now I'm obsessed with figuring it out.
 

Ninjabowler

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply man, i think that ill try this first, followed by heisenburgs tea if it doesnt work. Right now everything is fine but as a friend of mine says about guns,"id rather have one and not need it than need one and not have it", so im looking into solution before problems start. Oh and all i could think of about your indicas is maybe a different pruneing technique, or bloom booster....thanks again.
 

tallen

Well-Known Member
Both systems I have going-1 with bleach, 1 with bennies- seem to be doing ok, but I'm still having issues with ph dropping in both. I'm running RDWC with 1/4 feed lines and 1/2 return lines to each bucket. After a LOT of reading on this forum and another I've decided to try to redesign my system to try to eliminate this persistent problem. I read about "bio-buckets" and it gave me some ideas I'd like to try to implement in my redesign.

First being flow, or bucket turnover rate. I'm going to make my intake and return lines much bigger to get a high flow through rate. I'm going to shoot for about 10x per hour give or take. Hopefully with this accomplished I can ditch the airstones and use a waterfall (or several) or a powerhead or venturi valves to get my d.o. But one of the main reasons for this is I've read that the bennies like fast moving water and the bad stuff mainly grows in stagnant water(which my current design probably has several "dead" spots where the water is pretty stagnant). I think the plants do better with high flow too, that's why undercurrent systems grow monsters so well. Don't know if any of this is true for sure, but I can only see it doing much more good than harm.

2nd, I'm going to ditch hydroton and fill my net pots with lava rock as I've read that lava rock is great for giving bennies a home in all those nooks and crannies and hollows. There are other mediums I may consider such as grow stones that do the same thing, but lava rock is cheap!! Also, I'm going to bring my water level up from below the net pot to having the bottom 1/2 inch or so submerged so that some of the rock is always wet-that way the bennies can colonize it since not all bennies attach to the roots. As long as I've got a good flow rate and high d.o. level I don't see this being a problem.

Anyway, what do you think? good ideas? Potential issues? Thanks!
 

Downinit

Active Member
Hey Heisenberg, I've been using ur tea for a couple months now and it works GREAT!!!! +++ Rep I just wanted to verify one thing. U said use 1/4-1/2 scoop of the ZHO. Did you mean the big end of the scoop?? Just wanna make sure I'm using enough AND not to much at the same time. :weed:
 

The Dawg

Well-Known Member
Hey Heisenberg, I've been using ur tea for a couple months now and it works GREAT!!!! +++ Rep I just wanted to verify one thing. U said use 1/4-1/2 scoop of the ZHO. Did you mean the big end of the scoop?? Just wanna make sure I'm using enough AND not to much at the same time. :weed:
Brother Downinit I Use 1/4 Teaspoon Per Gallon :leaf:
 

B.B. King

Member
Both systems I have going-1 with bleach, 1 with bennies- seem to be doing ok, but I'm still having issues with ph dropping in both. I'm running RDWC with 1/4 feed lines and 1/2 return lines to each bucket. After a LOT of reading on this forum and another I've decided to try to redesign my system to try to eliminate this persistent problem. I read about "bio-buckets" and it gave me some ideas I'd like to try to implement in my redesign.

First being flow, or bucket turnover rate. I'm going to make my intake and return lines much bigger to get a high flow through rate. I'm going to shoot for about 10x per hour give or take. Hopefully with this accomplished I can ditch the airstones and use a waterfall (or several) or a powerhead or venturi valves to get my d.o. But one of the main reasons for this is I've read that the bennies like fast moving water and the bad stuff mainly grows in stagnant water(which my current design probably has several "dead" spots where the water is pretty stagnant). I think the plants do better with high flow too, that's why undercurrent systems grow monsters so well. Don't know if any of this is true for sure, but I can only see it doing much more good than harm.

2nd, I'm going to ditch hydroton and fill my net pots with lava rock as I've read that lava rock is great for giving bennies a home in all those nooks and crannies and hollows. There are other mediums I may consider such as grow stones that do the same thing, but lava rock is cheap!! Also, I'm going to bring my water level up from below the net pot to having the bottom 1/2 inch or so submerged so that some of the rock is always wet-that way the bennies can colonize it since not all bennies attach to the roots. As long as I've got a good flow rate and high d.o. level I don't see this being a problem.

Anyway, what do you think? good ideas? Potential issues? Thanks!

My systems are "biobuckets" by design. I'm pretty sure I introduced pathogens from the get-go, via the prevegged plants I first brought in. I would have to say that the biobucket design is not the cure all for root rot issues. It took a month or two for the RR to set in, but it nearly wiped me out before I found this thread. I think I've been dealing more with a form of pythium, although I have seen genuine slime a couple of times.

IMHO, the changes you're talking about making are all beneficial, but probably not a cure. Being religious about the tea regimen has surely been my biggest gain to date. In my specific situation, the addition of a nonionic surfactant was the kicker that got me out of the woods. It's very effective against pathogens that have a zoospore stage, as pythium does. Anyway, this isn't a battle for the faint-of-heart. Best of luck bro.


Grow well,
B.B.
 

B.B. King

Member
So after i get the tea into my res, can i add bud candy and/or molasses to sweeten my buds or do i run the risk of reviving the slime?
Don't put anything "sweet" directly into the res. It will most definitely feed any pathogens present. In reality, it's my understanding that roots don't take up sugars, but they do exude them. The best way to sweeten your bud is to maintain proper nutrition, and keep them healthy. The plant creates its own sugars.


Grow well,
B.B.
 
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