Dutchmasters Reverse,a study of hermie's.

FLoJo said:

panhead what other products are you using? when you say they are gaining do are you referring to the nute regiment you are giving them or just the reverse?

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After re reading my post i can see where i was vague on that post,i'll try to word it better.

Some plants got the penetrator/reverse combo,others got my home made brew of dish soap & flowering ferts,the third group got no foliar treatment of any kind,all 3 groups are gaining in bud size that is normal from what ive seen in my past grows & to what i'd expect this early in flowering,the plants treated with dutchmasters & my brew are not growing any faster or slower than the plants not foliar treated with anything,just normal bud growth on all plants.

From previous discussions i'd seen in other threads there had been mention that there could be possible slowed bud growth with using the dutch masters products so i thought it worthy to report that they are gaining bud size thats normal & seems equal to the non treated plants.

The only product that these plants are recieving is a feeding every other watering with a light mixture of Jacks Classic flowering ferts (very small pots) & all 3 groups of plants are being fed the same nutrient regiem.

Im inspecting the plants allmost daily for any hermies,so far not a single hermie.

seeds are male or female from the start, you cant change that. and if you can, badass dude. i waana know how lol

Titan4jah said:

seeds are male or female from the start, you cant change that. and if you can, badass dude. i waana know how lol

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This is true & what ive allways thought but the sheer numbers do not add up,were not talking about a few plants here,all i know for sure at this point is that i have never had a 100% female ratio even when using feminized seeds, now this time around i hit the 100% mark,it is very puzzeling especially since i had zero expectations of it doing anything right from the start.

panhead said:

This is true & what ive allways thought but the sheer numbers do not add up,were not talking about a few plants here,all i know for sure at this point is that i have never had a 100% female ratio even when using feminized seeds, now this time around i hit the 100% mark,it is very puzzeling especially since i had zero expectations of it doing anything right from the start.

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i hate to ask but could u give us an idea of how many were sprayed round abouts? cuz 100% sounds great but if we could know out of how many

thanks for clearing that up panhead.. very interesting..

and as far as seeds being male or felame i have never bought that.. i think that they respond to environmental aspects and adapt accordingly.. i have also had a sneaking suspicion that they are conscious of the plants around them and figure they need 50 50 ratio in order to continue survival.. i have no proof but its just an assumption..

hahah that sounds paranoid.....but now im thinkin it might be true......aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! the plants can talk.

HOHO said:

i hate to ask but could u give us an idea of how many were sprayed round abouts? cuz 100% sounds great but if we could know out of how many

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From my 1st thoughts on posting this thread ive awaited this question,it gave me pause to even post the thread as there is no way i can truthfully answer the question.

My wife & i are in the process as we speak of getting med mj cards & ive became paranoid about fuking that up before we even get there,we will be some of the 1st card holders in our state so i hesitate on this question.

It sucks too because its info that is needed but its also info that i cant post,putting exact numbers on paper gives me the willies .

Pm on the way.

FLoJo said:

thanks for clearing that up panhead.. very interesting..

and as far as seeds being male or felame i have never bought that.. i think that they respond to environmental aspects and adapt accordingly.. i have also had a sneaking suspicion that they are conscious of the plants around them and figure they need 50 50 ratio in order to continue survival.. i have no proof but its just an assumption..

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Ok now thats interesting to me & something ive been thinking about lately,ive allways been of a mind that sex was a predertermined issue direct from seed, but now i pause, several issues have me thinking that there might be for lack of communication skills on my part some "awareness" within the plants to determine the outcome of certian situations,or something genetic that will allow the plant to push itself one way or the other in order to counteract certian conditions & safeguard itself as a species.

On top of the sheer numbers that blow the female/male ratio out of the water ive also began thinking about other situations where im sure the plants adapt & change to fit the condition.

Im still not convinced that the dutchmasters has anything special in the product as im naturally sceptical about magic sauces,expensive nutes or any product that makes insane promises,however i am really starting to think that somehow they have stumbled onto something very simple & basic in nature,maybe an exact ratio of a select npk number that they've discoverd can have an effect in certian situations.

ya it just doesnt make sense that a plant will make half and half.. i mean if sex were completely genetic and predetermined we would not be able to induce hermies through stress..
i feel like along with the awareness factor that the plants may have, the males are produced in situations of more stress because they will be less likely to produce wholesome buds that are used as like a breeding ground for seeds...
also a male in a stressed and environment that is lacking would mean that the other plants around it are probably lacking which means a lack of food.. this would lead me to believe that a male would be a favorable food source for animals and would aide in spreading around the genetics.

whereas a female would grow in a more fertile area because having good large sticky buds woud be more condusive to collecting and cultivating pollen and furthering the species..

like you said i feel like they stumbled on something simple that tells the plant hey you are going to be able to have everything you need to be a seed cultivator so start pumpin out them hairs! again purely hypothetical but seems like an easy enough theory that it just might be true!

FLo

FLoJo said:

ya it just doesnt make sense that a plant will make half and half.. i mean if sex were completely genetic and predetermined we would not be able to induce hermies through stress..
i feel like along with the awareness factor that the plants may have, the males are produced in situations of more stress because they will be less likely to produce wholesome buds that are used as like a breeding ground for seeds...
also a male in a stressed and environment that is lacking would mean that the other plants around it are probably lacking which means a lack of food.. this would lead me to believe that a male would be a favorable food source for animals and would aide in spreading around the genetics.

whereas a female would grow in a more fertile area because having good large sticky buds woud be more condusive to collecting and cultivating pollen and furthering the species..

like you said i feel like they stumbled on something simple that tells the plant hey you are going to be able to have everything you need to be a seed cultivator so start pumpin out them hairs! again purely hypothetical but seems like an easy enough theory that it just might be true!

FLo

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yah it sounds like a good theory.

Spent quite a bit of time at the grow today,infact i spent all day there,what i found had me all fuked up & im still trying to find answers,or atleast something sensible to explain the situation i found.

Ok anybody who's read the entire thread knows i used 3 different groups of plants for this test,group 1 was treated (exactly as stated in the directions) with Dutchmasters Reverse & Penetrator foliar spray, group 2 was treated with a very light mixture of my flowering nutes & some dish soap as the wetting agent,group 3 was not treated with any foliar spray at all,all groups are the same strain & in the exact conditions.

When i got there today i was only there a minute or two looking at the plants & i saw a hermie in the Dutchmasters grow,then i saw another hermie so i got out the magnifying glass to look at them all,after i finished looking at the entire Dutchmasters group i ended up finding that 11% of the females had turned hermie,2 of the hermies had pollen sacks everywhere in large numbers,the rest had a few pollen sacks spread out but the worst 2 were loaded.

After i finished i looked at the other 2 groups of plants,not one single hermie in the group i treated with my home brew & not a single hermie in the group not treated with anything,i spent 4 hours looking at the 2 groups that didnt turn hermie thinking i was missing the pollen sacks,i didnt miss any pollen sacks because there are none.

Im confused as hell at this point.

Titan4jah said:

yah it sounds like a good theory.

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Hello titan,i dont really care about the outcome of my little test,it was just for fun & to try something new,im normally anti snake oil so i thought it would be fun to test this stuff out,still i have no real interest in the outcome no matter how it turns out,i only grow for personal smoke for me & my family, & as a hobby.

Can you please do me a favor though,if your going to participate in the thread please keep the posting of a constructive nature if at all possible,ive spent alot of time putting together this test, not to mention dedicating 100% of my grow area to doing the test,ive put myself in a position that makes me spend twice the amount of time on the grow in order to do this test as properly as possible,all at my own expense & at the expense of my next harvest no less.

Im not trying to be a dick head but as far as i know this is the 1st thread on any site dedicated to once & for all proving or disproving weather this stuff works or not.

Thanks bro.

Sorry titan,i came off as a dick as usual,my communication skills obviously need work but i am not angry with you,what i was trying to say was that i'd like it if you (and others) helped me figure out or helped find ways to explain what the hell is going on in this grow,the sheer numbers do not add up,i know i have not posted exact numbers on plant count but im not comfortable posting that info in print,the numbers are large enough to freak me right out.

What i was trying to say was i need help figuring out what the fuk is going down & for people to post more constructive information,sorry.

Great thread, i'm gonna be keeping a close eye on it. Best of luck with the ladies.

panhead said:

When i got there today i was only there a minute or two looking at the plants & i saw a hermie in the Dutchmasters grow,then i saw another hermie so i got out the magnifying glass to look at them all,after i finished looking at the entire Dutchmasters group i ended up finding that 11% of the females had turned hermie,2 of the hermies had pollen sacks everywhere in large numbers,the rest had a few pollen sacks spread out but the worst 2 were loaded.

After i finished i looked at the other 2 groups of plants,not one single hermie in the group i treated with my home brew & not a single hermie in the group not treated with anything,i spent 4 hours looking at the 2 groups that didnt turn hermie thinking i was missing the pollen sacks,i didnt miss any pollen sacks because there are none.

Im confused as hell at this point.

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I'd be on the phone with Dutchmasters or if that isn't possible, I'd email them. I'd really want to hear what they have to say.
BTW, when looking around about this product, I saw a comment about mode of action which I have never seen before. Something about Reverse having phospholipids to help with the rapid uptake of phosphorus inhibiting male flowers. I don't know if you're homemade nute solution was high in P or not. I personally didn't know enough about foliar feeding to figure a good NPK ratio, what did you use?

mindphuk said:

I'd be on the phone with Dutchmasters or if that isn't possible, I'd email them. I'd really want to hear what they have to say.
BTW, when looking around about this product, I saw a comment about mode of action which I have never seen before. Something about Reverse having phospholipids to help with the rapid uptake of phosphorus inhibiting male flowers. I don't know if you're homemade nute solution was high in P or not. I personally didn't know enough about foliar feeding to figure a good NPK ratio, what did you use?

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Ive emailed them a few months back,before the start of my experiment,they responded but with sales hype type explainations,i do plan to contact them again & foward them a copy of this thread once im further along in the experiment & see what their response is,hopefully they are more giving on the real information.

The foliar spray i used was a 3-9-6 mixture,i used that along with dish soap for the wetting agent.

Ive also read simular things several times about the issue of it containing phospholids as you have read.

Now im 101% convinced that the Reverse does something & somehow interacts with the plants genitics,not only because of the initial 100% success rate with the female ratio as well as the latest episode with multiple hermraphodites comming out within 48 hours of my last close inspection,the fact that the other test plants not treated with the Dutchmasters products have not sprouted a single hermie is a strong indicator to me that the dutchmasters is having an interaction with the plants.

see now that is some crazy stuff.. it makes me think that my theory is correct.. its almost like they realize that there are too many ladies in the bunch and they need some studs, so in an effort to save the species they revert back to being male or somethin.. i dont know... one thing is for sure panhead you are on to something and this reverse does something internally that is messing with the plant.. i will be curious to see if the true females will stay true to their genes when pushed past flowering or if they will still continue to sprout some nuts

I could be all fuked up on this but here's what my theory is.

When i used the reverse on the seed grow where sex had never been determined it forced all plants to exibit female traights,then the longer into bud the plants got the dominate genes in male plants that had been forced female overtook the forced female genes,but as i say i have no real idea its just a guess.

Ive had hermies pop before so thats no big suprise but never that many & never with the amount of pollen sacks that came within 48 hours.

that is probably much more realistic than my psychedelic theory LOL

So by female traits, are they going as far as to push out hairs?

Im assuming they are, so the nutrients in the product and the biodyversity of your soil are making the seeds show female traits, but like you said there diverting back as there hormone level rises with age. DNA is so crazy, the temperature of the germinating medium might effect the sex traits too, theres a shezzz load of variables to look at there. but maybe by keeping nutrient levels of what are in the product on a constant level and rise with the growth of the plant you could "force" a female plant. you would have a heck of a time watching each plant and measureing parts ppm, along with allot of guess work at first befor you could get it down...PLUS a perfect constant enviorment. so add up , temp,medium,nutrients,lights,humidity,airflow. and a shit load of man hours, you could find out for sure. maybe...... im baked tho might be a waist of 5 grand..who knows?
happy 09bubbleberry and some nice water hash inspired this post

Today was inspection day again,i went over all the dutchmasters plants & no more hermies were found,i killed all the hermies that came from the dutchmasters plants,i didnt think it would be a fair test using plants that were allready treated twice to see if the product works to control/stop hermies so i chopped them.

In the home brew grow no hermies were found

In the grow that was not treated with anything two hermies were found,the pollen sacks just popped out & are very small,i segragated the plants & treated one plant with dutchmasters,the other plant im going to let keep going untreated for another day or so until i treat it,this way i'll know if it works at different stages of hermraphrodites showing pollen sacks.