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Ducting Co2 from outside is it likely I'll be detected?

Discussion in 'Grow Room Design & Setup' started by James1982, Oct 9, 2017.

  1.  
    James1982

    James1982 New Member

    I think a lot of information I've provided has been overlooked.

    I plan on using a co2 controller which turns on a water pump from my pond when co2 levels get below a certain level.

    This will cause the burner to turn on heat the water and then turn off when required.

    It is a propane burner not natural gas.

    My AC vents directly into the chimney stack. It's a two hose portable AC 24000 BTU so it keeps air in the room. mini split isn't an option here.

    The room is definitely sealed well I lined the entire room with a massive pond liner on the floor and plastic sheeting around the walls on top of kingspan. Door is sealed like a fridge door with the silicone seal.

    If I run the co2 burner indoors I'd need to find a pond pump that can lift the water 10m in the air from my pond which could be hard to find.
    I'd still need a pipe going up my house to bring the water in and out.

    Unless my AC is good enough I could heat my 500l res with the burner and then use my chiller to take the heat out of res into the air and then the Ac takes it out of the air.

    I have no way to really calculate if 24000 btu is enough though
     
    ttystikk likes this.
  2.  
    ttystikk

    ttystikk Well-Known Member

    That's quite a tall head for a pump, but if you manage to get it up and through once and keep the return line underwater you should be able to take advantage of the siphon effect to help your pump.

    To calculate Watts of heat vs BTu of cooling, 1W=3.414BTu. Thus 10kW of lighting needs 34k BTu of cooling and that's without the 20% overhead you'll want. You're gonna need more AC- and a dual hose portable isn't going to be terribly efficient.

    The heat generated by your burner will totally overwhelm your chiller, forget that idea. Maybe a big tub outside the room full of water? A buddy used an old hot tub shell sitting outside for this purpose once, lol
     
    Toohighmf likes this.
  3.  
    James1982

    James1982 New Member

    The part you mention about 10kw light = 10kw of heat I don't agree with though.

    Basic physics the law of conservation of energy. Energy cannot be created or destroyed only transferred.

    10,000w of light 50% may be automatically created during production of light so you have 5000w of actual light energy and 5000w of heat energy.

    Of that 5000w of light energy some of it may bounce around the room warming objects. That could account for less than 10% if you manage canopy well.
    The plants convert this light energy into growth. Plants do waste some energy as heat during this growth but very little.

    A very high portion of the 5000w is converted into growth if what you say is true it breaks the law of physics from what I can understand of it
     
    Instape likes this.
  4.  
    James1982

    James1982 New Member

    I have considered using a pump to pump the water up but that's why I started this debate.

    If I have the option pump water up or duct co2 up... I'd prefer to duct the co2 As it's easier and won't cause heat issues
     
  5.  
    ttystikk

    ttystikk Well-Known Member

    Sorry, man, this is flat wrong. It doesn't matter if it's a 10,000W worth of toaster oven, LED lights or supercomputer. Watts in is heat out, period.

    Conservation of matter and energy demands it. Light is just another form of energy. The only part that won't become heat the moment it lands on something is that fraction landing on leaves and creates water vapor via transpiration.

    As I said before, the energy savings is in the ability to run lower Watts/ft² to get the same results.
     
  6.  
    ttystikk

    ttystikk Well-Known Member

    You can try this, but you'll need to exhaust some air from the room or it won't go in.
     
  7.  
    James1982

    James1982 New Member

    So what about conservation of energy - energy that is stored in the plant?

    Or are you telling me that in the wild when cows and horses DEPEND On grass (energy) to live it's made out of thin air?
     
    Instape likes this.
  8.  
    ttystikk

    ttystikk Well-Known Member

    That's a tiny fraction of the energy expended by the lighting. A rounding error at best.
     
  9.  
    James1982

    James1982 New Member

    Your stating that the plant uses very little energy that simply can't be true.

    The energy that the plant uses is converted from light into growth. If we provide 10,000w and only 1% was actually used by the plants we would be better off growing outside in a greenhouse in cold climates.

    I guess I'll just have to run my setup and see how it goes. So far my 24000 btu ac can cool 10,000w of Led to 27c easily enough illl just add the burner and if I need to I'll increase the ac
     
  10.  
    Toohighmf

    Toohighmf Well-Known Member

    It’s funny because I’m running about 4960w of LED’s, a water cooled co2 burner. And a quest dual 110 dehumidifier. I have a 2 ton mini split, and I’m considering running a 3 ton to insure I have the cooling power. A portable AC unit almost creates more btu’s than it cools; even with insulated duct which I doubt you are using. You’d be better off with a 3 ton window unit.. Mounted in the fireplace lol.
    While Ttysik and I don’t always agree on everything, he’s been rock solid with his info to you. He and I are really only trying to help. I don’t want to toot my own horn, but after 25 years of indoor growing, owning 3 hydro stores, being an ex national tech rep for advanced nutrients, and now a grow consultancy/contractor firm working with some pretty big entities, I’d like to think I have a pretty good understanding of all the requirements of success in this industry. I strongly suggest you take our experience and advice seriously.
     
    ttystikk likes this.
  11.  
    deno

    deno Member

    Would a hot water heater running in your backyard attract attention? Almost certainly, because it's so unusual. I'm not sure anyone would put two and two together, and think 'grow room', but it would look odd. I think it also somewhat depends of the type of area you live in. Do people commonly heat their ponds? I think most people who do use submersible electric heaters. Your cover story might not cut it, since whoever you were telling it to would already be looking closer. As far as a pipe leading into your house, once you tell them it's for the pond the pipe makes no sense. Might make more sense just to run hot water into your house from there. I don't think it would look out of place in a poverty ridden area, or maybe in the country where jerry rigging stuff is common. On the other hand, LEO might think it's a still. If you live in a nice area, though, it's going to look really odd. Build a shed, maybe.
     
  12.  
    nxsov180db

    nxsov180db Well-Known Member

    Why can't you use bottled CO2? I understand you mentioned room size, how big is the room? More importantly how much weight are you pulling per month on average since the vegetation is what uses CO2? If your room was 100% sealed room size wouldn't matter at all, however there is always going to be some amount of leakage, as long as your room is sealed pretty good room size should only play a small part in how much CO2 you use. I have a 17x34 foot room and I go through 20lbs a week.
     
    Billiam76 and ttystikk like this.
  13.  
    nxsov180db

    nxsov180db Well-Known Member

    100 watts per square foot? I'm around half that and I experience light stress and I currently use CO2 which allows more light and heat.
     
    ttystikk likes this.
  14.  
    pop22

    pop22 Well-Known Member

    If you need CO2, do it right! Get a tank and controller they are not expensive and don't take that much room. Mushroom bags and anything like that are all bullshit and a waste of time and money. Getting set up for CO2 is easy and compared to what people spend on lights, or even nutrients, its a bargain! And in a sealed run with LOTS of light and the right temps, 30% increase in production is possible with the right strains.


     
  15.  
    HydroRed

    HydroRed Well-Known Member

    Make your own SAFE co2 generator out of sugar, yeast, water and a bucket. No heat signatures, risk of fires or risk of exceeding the safe Co2 limit to humans.
     
  16.  
    pop22

    pop22 Well-Known Member

    Consider your going to pump in a shit ton of heat also, and with that much light, heat will already be an issue

     
  17.  
    Billiam76

    Billiam76 Active Member

    Since CO2 is used in welding how about setting up a welding table near the tanks outside?
     
  18.  
    fn217

    fn217 Member

    I disagree with this. As others have stated here, and in my experience with "DIY CO2" in the aquarium hobby, the yeast method results in such an inconsistent and unpredictable CO2 creation that it really just isn't worth it. The hassle of bottled or propane based CO2 generation would be dwarfed by the annoyance of dealing with yeast based CO2.

    I mean, how do you stop the release of CO2 during the dark period? Move the bag/mix out of the room? Seems like a great way to cause mistakes, forgetting to remove the bag, forgetting to put it back, too much mixture causing CO2 to rise too high, etc etc.

    So much easier to just use a proper CO2 generation method with a controller.

    OP, honestly if it's not the end of the world, just use bottled or propane. I get carrying bottles up and down your house will suck, but it's probably the best route IMO.
     
    ttystikk likes this.
  19.  
    cannabiscrusader

    cannabiscrusader Well-Known Member

    Put a PVC t in line with the exhaust from the burner, then two dampers after the t and one after the bull (or middle of the t to your room. This way you can control how much goes into your room.

    If this burner is already exhausted outside, how would you be detected for using it?
     
  20.  
    coreywebster

    coreywebster Well-Known Member

    Look up Photosynthetic efficiency. Roughly speaking of all plants under the sun the leaf efficiency is 2-5%. Under indoor lighting with its narrow spectrum, more of it been 400-700nm we might get 8% of all light falling on the actual leaf converted to photosynthesis, of which some will be used in transpiration. So 92%+ will eventually turn to heat while the other is used as chemical energy.
    Sucks ey!
     
    Billiam76 and ttystikk like this.

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