Dr. Elaine Ingham vs Tim Wilson on molasses

hyroot

Well-Known Member
I've always understood it as bacteria feed off the molasses and fungi feed of the kelp in a compost tea and oats too if you add that.

Elaine Ingram also has a phd in microbiology. Tim wilson is self taught ( he even says he has no formal education) and more of a salesman pushing his microscopes and vortex brewers. I disagree with quite a few things he says.. his site he has even changed a few things after they were proven wrong on here.
 

MammothGrow

Well-Known Member
I've always understood it as bacteria feed off the molasses and fungi feed of the kelp in a compost tea and oats too if you add that.

Elaine Ingram also has a phd in microbiology. Tim wilson is self taught ( he even says he has no formal education) and more of a salesman pushing his microscopes and vortex brewers. I disagree with quite a few things he says.. his site he has even changed a few things after they were proven wrong on here.
I thought that was weird that she didn't have some type of degree in microbiology. Do you know if the molasses promotes breeding microbes that are specifically good for cannabis plants? Cause ive been reading a lot about how certain tea recipes breed microbes that aren't the right kind for cannabis plants.
 

MammothGrow

Well-Known Member
I thought that was weird that she didn't have some type of degree in microbiology. Do you know if the molasses promotes breeding microbes that are specifically good for cannabis plants? Cause ive been reading a lot about how certain tea recipes breed microbes that aren't the right kind for cannabis plants.
nevermind that last question, the molasses is just a food for them, they form from the compost, ewc, etc correct?
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
I thought that was weird that she didn't have some type of degree in microbiology. Do you know if the molasses promotes breeding microbes that are specifically good for cannabis plants? Cause ive been reading a lot about how certain tea recipes breed microbes that aren't the right kind for cannabis plants.
Ingham does have a degree. She got her phd in 1981 at the university of colorado. in 2011 she became chief scientist at the rodale institue. Tim wilson read books and wikepedia.

Yeah . molasses is food stock. the microbes feed on the sugars and breeed and multiply. They also feed on old dead roots and other organic material as well.

bacteria dominant imo is better for veg and fungi dominant is better during flower. You have to add the fungi so to speak. The bacteria thrives more in the soil than fungi.
 

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
I've always understood it as bacteria feed off the molasses and fungi feed of the kelp in a compost tea and oats too if you add that.

Elaine Ingram also has a phd in microbiology. Tim wilson is self taught ( he even says he has no formal education) and more of a salesman pushing his microscopes and vortex brewers. I disagree with quite a few things he says.. his site he has even changed a few things after they were proven wrong on here.

I feel very confident in saying that Tim Wilson bases nothing on his website gleaned from roll it up.

You seem butt hurt over him. What's up with that?
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
I feel very confident in saying that Tim Wilson bases nothing on his website gleaned from roll it up.

You seem butt hurt over him. What's up with that?
I'm not but hurt over him. Everyone praises him and his info should be taken with a grain of salt. He's just like the Chem nutrient companies that claim to be organic. Just another salesman.. He changed his words about the compost companies being the same after it cake out he was wrong..
 

MammothGrow

Well-Known Member
Elaine is just as much a salesman as everyone else in the industry. In fact, I don't want to lead anyone astray, but I believe she was asked to step down from a university b/c of her doing a start up with university money.

Check out the section on Compost teas and the soil food web:

Snake Oil, Horticultural Myths, Horticultural Urban Legends, and Persuaders in our Industry

P-
Dr Elaine is definitely money motivated now, i sent her an email asking her why she says no molasses in the tea and i got a response from some carol lady telling me if i wanted to talk with Dr Ingham i had to pay 250 an hour, payable in 15 min intervals. FUCK OFF I SAY!! You cant just answer a simple question real quick, woulda took her 5 minutes tops. GREEDY BITCH LOL
 

Pattahabi

Well-Known Member
Dr Elaine is definitely money motivated now, i sent her an email asking her why she says no molasses in the tea and i got a response from some carol lady telling me if i wanted to talk with Dr Ingham i had to pay 250 an hour, payable in 15 min intervals. FUCK OFF I SAY!! You cant just answer a simple question real quick, woulda took her 5 minutes tops. GREEDY BITCH LOL
Lol, welcome to the rabbit hole. ;)

P-
 

Nullis

Moderator
Both bacteria, and fungi in general (depending on the strain) share some of the same enzymes. Many fungi have enzymes that most bacteria don't have (peroxidases, chitanases, phosphatases, amylase, hydrolytic enzymes for breaking down cellulose, laccases and ligninases for breaking down lignin). Some bacteria have enzymes that most other bacteria do not (Actinomycetes have laccases and can break also down lignin, some Bacillus bacteria have been shown to produce cellulases).

Even just talking bacteria, depending on the strain, a single bacterium may have a couple dozen enzymes referred to as CAZymes or carbohydrate-activated enzymes just for working with carbs... or it may have 5-fold more. In the world of carbohydrates you have monosaccharides like glucose and fructose, and you have polymers or linked units thereof (oligo and polysaccharides). Then you have glycoside hydrolases, which seek to break down complex carbs into their forming units, like glucose, fructose and galactose. E.g. Lactose is made from glucose and galactose. Most bacteria can work with either glucose or lactose, but would prefer glucose as lactose requires more enzymes to break down into galactose and glucose. It takes three more enzymes to turn galactose into glucose, and from there glycolysis can begin which will break glucose down into pyruvate and yield ATP and NADH (energy). In aerobic organisms, the pyruvate can then enter into the TCA or Krebs cycle and yield more energy (ATP) and\or building blocks for the cell.

The point is, the aim of most microbes is to yield from whatever substrate it can, with whatever enzymes it has available, and in the least steps possible, a unit of something it can enter into glycolysis, the Krebs cycle or otherwise do something constructive with. Bacteria, fungi and even humans can perform glycolysis, so we can all use glucose as energy. As far as bacteria and fungi go, it becomes a matter of who can get there first, who can fully occupy the substrate first. And then, for each specific organism, what foods/substrates do they prefer or, if I was a microbe, what takes the least amount of enzymes/steps to go from Compound A to something I can enter into glycolysis, Krebs, or do something useful with?

Maybe I am a fungi and while I'd love me some glucose or fructose, it always seems like there just isn't any left to go around after that bacterial couple with their 600,000 grandkids get finished with it. In compost tea there is fierce competition and bacteria multiply faster than fungi.

As for reading: http://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=6369
I guess I learned that we don't know everything about everything yet, so fuck it, it's all snake oil don't buy or listen to anything from anyone or do anything right? Research argues with itself. Why go home?
 
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st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
Both bacteria, and fungi in general (depending on the strain) share some of the same enzymes. Many fungi have enzymes that most bacteria don't have (peroxidases, chitanases, phosphatases, amylase, hydrolytic enzymes for breaking down cellulose, laccases and ligninases for breaking down lignin). Some bacteria have enzymes that most other bacteria do not (Actinomycetes have laccases and can break also down lignin, some Bacillus bacteria have been shown to produce cellulases).

Even just talking bacteria, depending on the strain, a single bacterium may have a couple dozen enzymes referred to as CAZymes or carbohydrate-activated enzymes just for working with carbs... or it may have 5-fold more. In the world of carbohydrates you have monosaccharides like glucose and fructose, and you have polymers or linked units thereof (oligo and polysaccharides). Then you have glycoside hydrolases, which seek to break down complex carbs into their forming units, like glucose, fructose and galactose. E.g. Lactose is made from glucose and galactose. Most bacteria can work with either glucose or lactose, but would prefer glucose as lactose requires more enzymes to break down into galactose and glucose. It takes three more enzymes to turn galactose into glucose, and from there glycolysis can begin which will break glucose down into pyruvate and yield ATD and NADH (energy). In aerobic organisms, the pyruvate can then enter into the TCA or Krebs cycle and yield more energy (ATP) and\or building blocks for the cell.

The point is, the aim of most microbes is to yield from whatever substrate it can, with whatever enzymes it has available, and in the least steps possible, a unit of something it can enter into glycolysis, the Krebs cycle or otherwise do something constructive with. Bacteria, fungi and even humans can perform glycolysis, so we can all use glucose as energy. As far as bacteria and fungi go, it becomes a matter of who can get there first, who can fully occupy the substrate first. And then, for each specific organism, what foods/substrates do they prefer or, if I was a microbe, what takes the least amount of enzymes/steps to go from Compound A to something I can enter into glycolysis, Krebs, or do something useful with?

Maybe I am a fungi and while I'd love me some glucose or fructose, it always seems like there just isn't any left to go around after that bacterial couple with their 600,000 grandkids get finished with it. In compost tea there is fierce competition and bacteria multiply faster than fungi.

As for reading: http://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=6369
I guess I learned that we don't know everything about everything yet, so fuck it, it's all snake oil don't buy or listen to anything from anyone or do anything right? Research argues with itself. Why go home?

Any chance you could dumb that down a bit for me?

Is unsulphered blackstrap molasses a good food stock to use for a compost tea?
 

warble

Well-Known Member
Can I try to x-late? Its all a crap shoot.
It could help your plants and help bad bacteria or
it could help your plants and not help bad bacteria.
Since it can help fungi, it might be good towards the end
of your flowering, so the fungi that are helped, don't do
much harm before you're finished.
 

PeaceLoveCannabis

Well-Known Member
To add on the shroom thing on the first page, i would like to point out you can grow a Liquid Culture in sugar water...But this would not be an ideal environment to fruit in (IE grow the shrooms.) That's why people use grains, it provides solid support and optimal nutrition the whole way threw. But i have seen liquid cultures in nothing but RAW sugar water last for months but they don't require to much nutrition at this stage.

So i would imagine if you added grains to your tea, you are adding a food source with nutrients. However i bet BS molases breaks down faster/ is consumed faster then oats, or brown rice flower. I could be wrong, just food for thought!
 

Nullis

Moderator
Any chance you could dumb that down a bit for me?

Is unsulphered blackstrap molasses a good food stock to use for a compost tea?
Why not.

Both bacteria, and fungi in general (depending on the strain) share some of the same enzymes. Many fungi have enzymes that most bacteria don't have (peroxidases, chitanases, phosphatases, amylase, hydrolytic enzymes for breaking down cellulose, laccases and ligninases for breaking down lignin). Some bacteria have enzymes that most other bacteria do not (Actinomycetes have laccases and can break also down lignin, some Bacillus bacteria have been shown to produce cellulases).

Even just talking bacteria, depending on the strain, a single bacterium may have a couple dozen enzymes referred to as CAZymes or carbohydrate-activated enzymes just for working with carbs... or it may have 5-fold more. In the world of carbohydrates you have monosaccharides like glucose and fructose, and you have polymers or linked units thereof (oligo and polysaccharides). Then you have glycoside hydrolases, which seek to break down complex carbs into their forming units, like glucose, fructose and galactose. E.g. Lactose is made from glucose and galactose. Most bacteria can work with either glucose or lactose, but would prefer glucose as lactose requires more enzymes to break down into galactose and glucose. It takes three more enzymes to turn galactose into glucose, and from there glycolysis can begin which will break glucose down into pyruvate and yield ATP and NADH (energy). In aerobic organisms, the pyruvate can then enter into the TCA or Krebs cycle and yield more energy (ATP) and\or building blocks for the cell.

The point is, the aim of most microbes is to yield from whatever substrate it can, with whatever enzymes it has available, and in the least steps possible, a unit of something it can enter into glycolysis, the Krebs cycle or otherwise do something constructive with. Bacteria, fungi and even humans can perform glycolysis, so we can all use glucose as energy. As far as bacteria and fungi go, it becomes a matter of who can get there first, who can fully occupy the substrate first. And then, for each specific organism, what foods/substrates do they prefer or, if I was a microbe, what takes the least amount of enzymes/steps to go from Compound A to something I can enter into glycolysis, Krebs, or do something useful with?

Maybe I am a fungi and while I'd love me some glucose or fructose, it always seems like there just isn't any left to go around after that bacterial couple with their 600,000 grandkids get finished with it. In compost tea there is fierce competition and bacteria multiply faster than fungi.
Enzymes are substances that allow microbes, and other organisms cells to manipulate other chemicals in meaningful ways. Glucose is a simple sugar and can be immediately converted into energy (via glycolysis). Other simple sugars usually require extra work on the part of the cell to utilize. More complex carbohydrates such as sucrose and cellulose are "polymers" which means they are comprised of smaller units of simple sugars (in this case). Sucrose is a unit of glucose and a unit of fructose. Cellulose is made up of chains of glucose.

Many bacteria (not all) lack the enzymes required to break down complex carbohydrates or other substances like lignin. This is why people will say materials with high cellulose\lignin\chitin content are good for fungal dominance. It isn't that fungi can't use sugar, because that is what cellulose, for example, breaks down to anyways. Preference for microbes is a matter of what enzymes they have to work with whatever materials or potential "foods" are available.

But then there is also the matter of competition between organisms. Bacteria in oxygenated solution given glucose can multiple very rapidly and they grow faster in this environment than fungi do. Even though certain microbes have more specialized enzymes, most soil-dwelling microbes can use glucose.
 

GrowerGoneWild

Well-Known Member
Dr Elaine is definitely money motivated now, i sent her an email asking her why she says no molasses in the tea and i got a response from some carol lady telling me if i wanted to talk with Dr Ingham i had to pay 250 an hour, payable in 15 min intervals. FUCK OFF I SAY!! You cant just answer a simple question real quick, woulda took her 5 minutes tops. GREEDY BITCH LOL
You're asking for a consultation, of course she is going to charge you. My brother does research for some pharma companies, hes not doing that for free. Or is he going to tell somebody the theory on how they make compounds that work, not everybody can do work pro bono.. Hes got bills to pay.. strippers to put through college.. etc..

Bummer she wont tell you whats up.. but that is typical of nutrient companies I found. When you want to know the secret sauce, the emails stop real quick.
 

GrowerGoneWild

Well-Known Member
To add on the shroom thing on the first page, i would like to point out you can grow a Liquid Culture in sugar water...But this would not be an ideal environment to fruit in (IE grow the shrooms.) That's why people use grains, it provides solid support and optimal nutrition the whole way threw. But i have seen liquid cultures in nothing but RAW sugar water last for months but they don't require to much nutrition at this stage.

So i would imagine if you added grains to your tea, you are adding a food source with nutrients. However i bet BS molases breaks down faster/ is consumed faster then oats, or brown rice flower. I could be wrong, just food for thought!
Mmmmmm yummy brain food..

Yeah, I havent got to doing LC with 'cubes yet. All my 'cubes are done BRF cakes.. super easy. To see 'cubes done in a LC seems like more trouble than its worth. BRF is pretty much the perfect food for them.

Well, i'm thinking if you are trying to get a fungal tea going, I would go easy on the simple sugars. I would stock up on polysaccharides like say potato flour or grains like BRF or Oats.. etc. makes sense to me. Once a fungi is established/colonized, it literally grows at an exponential rate, additionaly some fungi like trichoderma pennicillin, sacromyces.. etc.. exhibit an antisymboitic trait.

I think the point is to get the right fungi or bacterial activity based on your needs, molasses just is added whenever without any real thought to why we are doing it. (Im guilty of this too).
 

GrowerGoneWild

Well-Known Member
More info on teas.

http://microbeorganics.com/

Dont wanna read it..?.. here's some highlights.

-BSM could be used to help neutralize chlorine/chloramines.

Good news for me, Im out of sodium thiosulfate, and I dont really want to buy more. I'm trying to remove the synthetic inputs.. keep it natural.

-"black strap molasses (BSM) feeds both bacteria/archaea and fungi equally well"

I agree that you can start fungi in a sugar solution.. however one will win, if the intent of the tea is to simply start fungi and apply within 36 hrs, it might be fine, I still think a polysacchride should be added to continue the fungal activity so it can continue to grow to colonize the roots or medium.
 

Nullis

Moderator
If you want more bacteria than fungus is what hes saying.. Simple carbohydrates are easier to metabolize by bacteria.
My feeling is you're virtually always going to have more bacteria than fungi in a compost tea. Most bacteria seem to like, or at least not mind floating about in solution. Most fungi seem to prefer being anchored to something. Fungi have hyphae and can physically penetrate solid objects with it (sexy, I know). They secrete (ohh yeah) enzymes which help them do a lot of their digesting outside of the cell (extracellularly), which I imagine could be difficult in a solution where stuff keeps floating by and away.

Fungi will grow in teas, though, under the right conditions. The more fungal filaments you have to begin with, the greater the likelihood you'll succeed at getting something dominated by fungi. The typical procedure is to "jump start" the fungi in the compost\humus you're using. You do this by taking a cup full of compost and mixing in a foodstock with the tougher to digest components like cellulose and lignin. Something like oatmeal, flax seed meal, brown rice flour, etc. kelp meal should work, too. If you use oatmeal or a bulkier material, grind it up first to near powder consistency.

Moisten after mixing, but try not to get it too wet, then put it somewhere warm and dark. You may want to cover it partially as you also don't want it to dry out. After 3-5 days or more you'll have a fuzzy white (and maybe green, or yellowish) mass of mycelium. Break this up into nugget, nickle-quarter sized pieces and brew with it.

Now, in this case you really don't want a lot of blackstrap, perhaps a teaspoon if any. Too much sugar is still likely to get the bacteria rocking. Even if they are utilizing different food sources they're still competing for space and other resources, especially oxygen.

Some of the more advanced bacteria have filaments reminiscent of fungal hyphae, including Actinobacteria in the genus Streptomyces, from which we derive a significant chunk of our arsenal of natural antibiotics. As a matter of fact, humans stole the very idea of antibiotics from... a fungus (Penicillium sp).

Can I try to x-late? Its all a crap shoot.
It could help your plants and help bad bacteria or
it could help your plants and not help bad bacteria.
Since it can help fungi, it might be good towards the end
of your flowering, so the fungi that are helped, don't do
much harm before you're finished.
Why, then, ’tis none to you, for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.
It's not really a gamble or anything, the only real requirements for a basic\quality AACT are: start with good-high quality compost\humus\EWC, don't use bad water, and use an air-pump or brewer capable of keeping the solution sufficiently oxygenated. What you don't want is to use compost that has gone anaerobic (smells bad), or allow anaerobic microbes to grow in a tea. That would be due to lack of oxygen and could either allow pathogenic anaerobes to breed, or result in alcohols which are toxic to plants. AACT should never smell bad, but earthy.

The great majority of bacteria (and archaea) and fungi are not 'bad'. AACT is actively aerated, and the microbes we're aiming for are mostly obligate or facultative aerobes. Virtually all fungi are aerobic, with the exception of Neocallimastigomycota which live in the digestive tracts of ruminants. The fungi in compost and AACT are mostly saprophytes which decay organic matter and do not attack healthy, living plants (they wait for the plant to die). Some opportunistic fungi will attack weak plants which are on the verge of death. The thing is that these fungi (and the really bad fungi like Botrytis sp) are ubiquitous, with spores probably already floating about the air in your grow room, and on the leaves of your plants.

Quality compost\castings should not really have pathogens in the first place. Any opportunists are actually suppressed by the activity of beneficial or neutral microbes in the material. The best of the beneficial microbes live in harmony or symbiosis with the plant roots in the rhizosphere. Plant roots exude compounds to feed these microbes and actually influence what kinds of microbial communities are growing there.

Microbes live on plant leaves, as well. When you foliar/spray finished AACT, you cover the leaves in a layer of microbes which will continue to exert their beneficial effects. At the very least, a microbe can be "good" simply by not being "bad": taking up space and resources, and out-competing the microbes which could really do the plant harm.
 
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