Do you even know KNOWLEDGE? Wisdom?

Fogdog said:

nobody...NOBODY...just figured out the Kreb's cycle. There is a good reason for teachers and education. Maybe not for everything well, yes for everything. It's an arrogance to think that you are the best there ever was. Or to think that you can't learn something from a person who dedicated his life to the subject.

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I agree there. Being that Sir Hans Adolf Krebs and Fritz Lipmann won a Nobel Peace Prize in Physiology for discovering the tricarboxylic acid cycle (Krebs cycle) it was absolutely discovered in laboratory utilizing specialized knowledge, I cannot refute your ironclad logic.

Learning from someone who has dedicated their life to a subject from experience in my opinion would be akin to learning directly from one who may have authored a college textbook on the same subject. For example, I have worked with Dr. Merle Jensen form University of Arizona to learn specialized techniques you are not likely to find in a marijuana cultivation book. However, I did not take any of his college courses. He teaches me exactly what he deems is important which is a whole hell of a lot. I consider him to be one of the premier consultants in the agriculture industry. I also have his university work and what I call "Codex Jensen" which is the sum of over 37 years of work in the industry which is essentially a Cliffs notes with its own detailed footnotes and back research pretty much from the source. Considering that I feel he is a priceless wealth of specialized knowledge, I again have to agree with you that there is always someone else to learn from.

My point here is to share that information. If I were to teach you what Dr. Jensen has taught me and it were exactly 100% verbatim, would it be worth any less than if you were to pay $3,000 for that same information? No, you would appreciate it more because YOU paid for it and thus have a debt obligation. The knowledge is priceless but there are better ways to get it than to become indebted for it.

OriginalRoast said:

Gaining new knowledge is not possible. For us to gain new knowledge we would have to learn something new. However, all knowable things are already known. When we find that we don't "know" something, it is because we have simply forgotten it; we just have to be reminded to "know" something.

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Ah, "Nothing new under the Sun." All knowledge is known and yet forgotten or lost through calamity doomed to be relearned and lost again. As Above, So Below.

I do love philosophy and intellectual discourse. Even if not true reality or logical it is still important to expand our mind's capabilities lest we become stagnant. As Socrates so eloquently put it, "the Unexamined life is not worth living for a human being." To go through life without questioning it would be dull.

TheFuture said:

I agree there. Being that Sir Hans Adolf Krebs and Fritz Lipmann won a Nobel Peace Prize in Physiology for discovering the tricarboxylic acid cycle (Krebs cycle) it was absolutely discovered in laboratory utilizing specialized knowledge, I cannot refute your ironclad logic.

Learning from someone who has dedicated their life to a subject from experience in my opinion would be akin to learning directly from one who may have authored a college textbook on the same subject. For example, I have worked with Dr. Merle Jensen form University of Arizona to learn specialized techniques you are not likely to find in a marijuana cultivation book. However, I did not take any of his college courses. He teaches me exactly what he deems is important which is a whole hell of a lot. I consider him to be one of the premier consultants in the agriculture industry. I also have his university work and what I call "Codex Jensen" which is the sum of over 37 years of work in the industry which is essentially a Cliffs notes with its own detailed footnotes and back research pretty much from the source. Considering that I feel he is a priceless wealth of specialized knowledge, I again have to agree with you that there is always someone else to learn from.

My point here is to share that information. If I were to teach you what Dr. Jensen has taught me and it were exactly 100% verbatim, would it be worth any less than if you were to pay $3,000 for that same information? No, you would appreciate it more because YOU paid for it and thus have a debt obligation. The knowledge is priceless but there are better ways to get it than to become indebted for it.



Ah, "Nothing new under the Sun." All knowledge is known and yet forgotten or lost through calamity doomed to be relearned and lost again. As Above, So Below.

I do love philosophy and intellectual discourse. Even if not true reality or logical it is still important to expand our mind's capabilities lest we become stagnant. As Socrates so eloquently put it, "the Unexamined life is not worth living for a human being." To go through life without questioning it would be dull.

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There is a very big difference between an education and applied knowledge

As far as the idea that we have learned everything and nothing is new, well, humans are learning new things all the time. So I don't understand that statement. Perhaps its true that what humans learn about the universe and spiritual world already exists. To the explorer pushing the boundaries of human experience, it's all new.

Fogdog said:

There is a very big difference between an education and applied knowledge

As far as the idea that we have learned everything and nothing is new, well, humans are learning new things all the time. So I don't understand that statement. Perhaps its true that what humans learn about the universe and spiritual world already exists. To the explorer pushing the boundaries of human experience, it's all new.

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Definitely. Applied knowledge is useful. I still have a hard time thinking that everything we could have known was already known at one point. However, in light of new information gleaned from history books or trips around the world I have repeatedly been surprised that the majority of what we have been doing has already been done in the past. Of course we have no evidence of the previous use of computers or electronics... however we may be going backwards as far as education, politics, health, agriculture, banking, and many other subjects are concerned.

In 1608 Hans Lippershey was the first to apply for a patent for a device with three times magnification which would eventually be coined the first telescope. Around the world at Machu Picchu built approximately in the late 1400s the Inca had been magnifying the stars' reflections in completely still reflecting pools at the top of the citadel. Both are methods of astronomy, but Pachacuti certainly didn't ask fro help from Lippershey or Zacharias Jansen (credited with compound microscope.)

The Egyptians, Greeks and Romans mastered medicine and physics for their day. Many of the civilizations of the ancient past have been able to create works of architecture that we cannot duplicate or even explain today. Speaking of Machu Picchu again, it was built to withstand earthquakes and since built has only crumbled a degree because the Jungle overgrew it for centuries and now tourists are whittling away at it faster than time can itself. For what we have been able to repair of it comparing the engineering of today versus 1400s is quite dramatic.

In my opinion we are only learning new information from the super high-tech such as the Space Race, Computers, Nuclear power, DNA sequencing and the like.

OriginalRoast said:

Gaining new knowledge is not possible. For us to gain new knowledge we would have to learn something new. However, all knowable things are already known. When we find that we don't "know" something, it is because we have simply forgotten it; we just have to be reminded to "know" something.

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When we believe we already know everything currently, our cup is overflowing, and there is no room for new knowledge in the cup. Life is ever-changing, and therefore new knowledge is constantly being revealed.
Example. Double Slit experiment, light waves going through two slits are predictable. well known scientific experiment. However, it was recently discovered, that light waves can become solid objects during this experiment. How is that? How can light become a solid, when it is a wave? Well, It was recently discovered that the observer, effects the experiment. Based on what the observer is looking for, life is willing to provide it. New knowledge for the day, as an observer you effect the outcomes of everything you observe. peace.

TheFuture said:

Definitely. Applied knowledge is useful. I still have a hard time thinking that everything we could have known was already known at one point. However, in light of new information gleaned from history books or trips around the world I have repeatedly been surprised that the majority of what we have been doing has already been done in the past. Of course we have no evidence of the previous use of computers or electronics... however we may be going backwards as far as education, politics, health, agriculture, banking, and many other subjects are concerned.

In 1608 Hans Lippershey was the first to apply for a patent for a device with three times magnification which would eventually be coined the first telescope. Around the world at Machu Picchu built approximately in the late 1400s the Inca had been magnifying the stars' reflections in completely still reflecting pools at the top of the citadel. Both are methods of astronomy, but Pachacuti certainly didn't ask fro help from Lippershey or Zacharias Jansen (credited with compound microscope.)

The Egyptians, Greeks and Romans mastered medicine and physics for their day. Many of the civilizations of the ancient past have been able to create works of architecture that we cannot duplicate or even explain today. Speaking of Machu Picchu again, it was built to withstand earthquakes and since built has only crumbled a degree because the Jungle overgrew it for centuries and now tourists are whittling away at it faster than time can itself. For what we have been able to repair of it comparing the engineering of today versus 1400s is quite dramatic.

In my opinion we are only learning new information from the super high-tech such as the Space Race, Computers, Nuclear power, DNA sequencing and the like.

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Do you think that the architectural, and artistic masters of the past didn't study under somebody? They learned and then applied what they learned in marvelous ways. People have been doing brilliant work for as long as we've been people. The times you describe were mostly populated with uneducated people and only a very few had the time and lifestyle that allowed them to study for a decade or more. Some of those performed marvelous works.

Today's world is more complicated and in order to be competent in the world about us, the average person must know more than the average person needed to know two hundred or more years ago. What you describe is mass education that for the most part succeeds in teaching a person who would have been a peasant in the past to read, write, know a bit about history and so forth. And so it is true that looking back a person might think that their education was wasted. Because what they can do isn't exceptional in today's world. What they know and can do today is exceptional compared to the average person of 200 years ago. Using you as an example, that you know a bit about history, can read, write, and so forth, then go deep into an applied field of tech tells me that the system worked. With hard work on your part of course.

A problem that I see is today's tech is complex and it now takes almost 20 years to produce people with enough knowledge to push our boundaries of knowledge further. I'm not talking about average people, but the kind of people that performed the great works in the past. The things we know about the physical world, including the biological world are amazing yet its obvious that we've just scratched the surface.

Socially and spiritually, much development is needed too. Yet, 200 years ago, monarchy was the most prevalent form of government, which stultified the lower classes by intent. That form of government is not much of a factor today. So I do say that people are developing new ways to cooperate with each other. Philosophy, philosophers and anthropologists are working on this but the going slow because we understand people the least of all.

The way towards improvement is to learn as much as one can while living and doing what one can to improve our ways. There is no magic way out of that.

Having a Mentor is the path to a lifetime of learning, remaining youthful throughout life. I have a Mentor and I am still learning daily. Every profession has mentoring as a process to becoming a professional, as most other trades and areas of learning. peace. I still study Andre Palladio for inspiration and understanding.

VegasWinner said:

When we believe we already know everything currently, our cup is overflowing, and there is no room for new knowledge in the cup.

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A cup is designed to contain some kind of substance. So, if we are putting knowledge into our theoretical cup then it would have to be designed to hold that knowledge. If our container overflows then perhaps a poor container was made that does not have the capacity to hold anything more than what fits in it? Or maby it was specifically made to hold the entirety of the substance that it was designed for and doesn't actually overflow. If your cup is overflowing maby it was designed poorly? Perhaps we could fashion a catch pan of some sort?

Also, nothing new can be created in this world, this includes knowledge. We see this esp. in physics, i.e., the conservation of energy.

OriginalRoast said:

A cup is designed to contain some kind of substance. So, if we are putting knowledge into our theoretical cup then it would have to be designed to hold that knowledge. If our container overflows then perhaps a poor container was made that does not have the capacity to hold anything more than what fits in it? Or maby it was specifically made to hold the entirety of the substance that it was designed for and doesn't actually overflow. If your cup is overflowing maby it was designed poorly? Perhaps we could fashion a catch pan of some sort?

Also, nothing new can be created in this world, this includes knowledge. We see this esp. in physics, i.e., the conservation of energy.

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the mind is the container. So if the container is poor, the mind is weak. A strong mind can withstand anything. The ability to understand the difference in real knowledge, opinions, facts, fantasies, theories, theorems, observations, etc, is to understand the workings of life itself. The purpose of wisdom is to understand life.

The purpose of life is to be happy, For many knowledgeable people, wisdom is as elusive and fleeting as happiness, and life lacks purpose, but filled with knowledge. Letting go of what is believed to be truth makes room to evaluate truth and discard that which is untrue and embrace and explore that which is true. But first, the mind must become empty of expectations and seek wisdom from the knowledge within, deciding what knowledge needs to be added and which knowledge is no longer purposeful, and discard it..ie. flat earth theories. Thinking all knowledge is understood is itself a lack of knowledge. Life is constantly evolving and changing, right in front of our eyes. If we do not change with life, we fail to understand life, and it's purpose, and life leaves us in the past.

A wise man says little, and understands much. An ignorant man says much and understands little. peace

OriginalRoast said:

Also, nothing new can be created in this world, this includes knowledge. We see this esp. in physics, i.e., the conservation of energy.

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Physics, quarks, and other minute particles are constantly being identified and discovered, that which we did not know prior. Science is finding new knowledge daily. peace.

I have been pondering this. My final thoughts. Knowledge is static; facts, theories, teachings, science, literature, etc. Wisdom is dynamic, action taken based on knowledge. peace

OriginalRoast said:

Gaining new knowledge is not possible. For us to gain new knowledge we would have to learn something new. However, all knowable things are already known. When we find that we don't "know" something, it is because we have simply forgotten it; we just have to be reminded to "know" something.

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Wouldn't it be all known things are already known ? Present and past.

Wouldn't it be all knowable things could also include things not known in the past or known in the present, but those things which could become known sometime in the future? An example : A knowable thing might be how tall a vegging plant will get a week from now. It isn't presently known, but it will be known etc.

VegasWinner said:

Knowledge is static; facts, theories, teachings, science, literature, etc. Wisdom is dynamic, action taken based on knowledge. peace

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I agree with you VegasWinner. Knowledge is static, there is nothing more for us to know and it is wisdom that allows for improvement.
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Too much crime..makes me wanna escape and smoke that supreme Kush.