Do you count flowering from 12/12 switch or when you see pistil hairs?

PJ Diaz

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
DrOgkush said:
So your saying a clone can have 3 cells But somehow not the mother.
Or a clone can carry the genetics of duck foot but not the mom???
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Clones have a lot more than 3-cells. I believe that multiple mutations would need to occur in order to present the characteristics of "duck foot", but I honestly don't know the specifics on that genetic attribute.

Yes, a clone can show a genetic mutation that does not exist in the mother, because the mutation occurs after the clone was created. Mutations occur for a number of reasons, however environmental impacts may be one such reason. So that said, if you keep a mother in different conditions from a clone, you may not see the same mutation in both individuals.

DrOgkush said:
I’m really asking. Because iv been under the direct assumption that a clone was genetic replica of the plant it’s taken from. Problems and all
Potency potential
Terpene potential
Yield potential
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That's true.. until the clone genetically mutates, for better or worse. This phenomenon is one of the likely reasons for so many different OG Kush cuts which are very similar, yet slightly different (ie: Tahoe OG vs SFV OG).
 
DrOgkush

DrOgkush

Well-Known Member
Your proving my point that it remains the same other than environmental conditions. In that case it’s not mutations. But an underlying genetic that wasn photo typical until say ‘lower temperature, higher humidity’. That’s what make the cuts different by locality and not genetics. That’s called adaptive traits of survival. Not mutations. And duck foot. If you wanna pic of that random mutation. I have that gene from an og kush seed from hsc. Fucking random

also. Another question. As far as cells go. I’m referring to fascinations (polyploid shit).
third cell producing the extra node. Can a clone randomly have that. Even tho the mother carries no traits?
 
PJ Diaz

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
DrOgkush said:
Your proving my point that it remains the same other than environmental conditions. In that case it’s not mutations. But an underlying genetic that wasn photo typical until say ‘lower temperature, higher humidity’. That’s what make the cuts different by locality and not genetics. That’s called adaptive traits of survival. Not mutations. And duck foot. If you wanna pic of that random mutation. I have that gene from an og kush seed from hsc. Fucking random

also. Another question. As far as cells go. I’m referring to fascinations (polyploid shit).
third cell producing the extra node. Can a clone randomly have that. Even tho the mother carries no traits?
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I don't know the answer to your duck foot question, I don't claim to be an expert.

Yes, it's true that environment has an impact, and you can believe me about mutations or not, however the studies which have been done on identical twins certainly show that mutations likely play a stronger role in noticeable differences between individuals who share "identical DNA".

Unfortunately similar studies have not been done in the botany world (to my knowledge), however there's not much reason to believe that DNA mutations in plants would be much different than in animals. Feel free to google why are twins different if you like, and you will likely find that modern science has dismissed the notion that environment plays a primary role.

If you want to get real nerdy about it you might wanna check out this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3566971/

Or, maybe just skip to the conclusion..

Screenshot - 2021-09-22T202921.800.png
 
DrOgkush

DrOgkush

Well-Known Member
Wait. Am I too high right now?

we’re talking about cannabis clones having the exact dna makeup of its mother And the variables at best are environmental and or grower.(including equipment).
I’m not talking about humans. I just said that one little comment that clones are not the same as twins.
And then got right back to the point. But I appreciate the read though because i love getting into genetics before bed. I can read shit on it for hours. Even when I was breeding reptiles and birds I did
 
PadawanWarrior

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
DrOgkush said:
Wait. Am I too high right now?

we’re talking about cannabis clones having the exact dna makeup of its mother And the variables at best are environmental and or grower.(including equipment).
I’m not talking about humans. I just said that one little comment that clones are not the same as twins.
And then got right back to the point. But I appreciate the read though because i love getting into genetics before bed. I can read shit on it for hours. Even when I was breeding reptiles and birds I did
Click to expand...
 
PJ Diaz

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
DrOgkush said:
Wait. Am I too high right now?

we’re talking about cannabis clones having the exact dna makeup of its mother And the variables at best are environmental and or grower.(including equipment).
I’m not talking about humans. I just said that one little comment that clones are not the same as twins.
And then got right back to the point. But I appreciate the read though because i love getting into genetics before bed. I can read shit on it for hours. Even when I was breeding reptiles and birds I did
Click to expand...
Believe what you want, but DNA acts similarly despite the specific life form.
 
Star Dog

Star Dog

Well-Known Member
I flowered a blackberry twice then on the 3rd flowering I got some buds on the leaf stems and a few leafs that were doubled, unusually thick stems with two leafs on them the 2nd directly under the 1st.
 
PJ Diaz

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
I personally have experienced genetic mutations in clones. I had a cut that I ran for multiple cycles, which had amazing lemon terps. At some point the terps somehow changed, lost their lemony punch and became more purfumey. I did think that it was somehow grower error or environment the first time it flowered differently, although the plant was healthy, and I hadn't changed anything majorly in terms of grow technique. I grew the same cut two more cycles, and it never returned back to the lemoney state that I grew it for so I tossed it.
 
PJ Diaz

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
Star Dog said:
I flowered a blackberry twice then on the 3rd flowering I got some buds on the leaf stems and a few leafs that were doubled, unusually thick stems with two leafs on them the 2nd directly under the 1st.
Click to expand...
I've had plants which formed mutations on specific buds. I forgot what it's called right now, but makes the bud look like it's all doubled up or something. The stem got all weird too. I know that if I had cloned that one stem I would have had some cray new clone.
 
PJ Diaz

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
DrOgkush said:
Wait. Am I too high right now?

we’re talking about cannabis clones having the exact dna makeup of its mother And the variables at best are environmental and or grower.(including equipment).
I’m not talking about humans. I just said that one little comment that clones are not the same as twins.
And then got right back to the point. But I appreciate the read though because i love getting into genetics before bed. I can read shit on it for hours. Even when I was breeding reptiles and birds I did
Click to expand...
Oh look, what do you know, science is on my side and botany agrees with me..

This:
www.biorxiv.org

Accumulation of somatic mutations leads to genetic mosaicism in Cannabis

Cannabis is typically propagated using stem cuttings taken from mother plants to produce genetically uniform propagules. However, producers anecdotally report that clonal lines deteriorate over time and eventually produce clones with less vigour and lower cannabinoid levels than the original...
www.biorxiv.org www.biorxiv.org

And this:
www.sciencedaily.com

Why plant 'clones' aren't identical

A new study of plants that are reproduced by 'cloning' has shown why cloned plants are not identical. Scientists have known for some time that 'clonal' (regenerant) organisms are not always identical. Now researchers believe they have found out why this is the case in plants: the genomes of...
www.sciencedaily.com
 
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DrOgkush

DrOgkush

Well-Known Member
PJ Diaz said:
Oh look, what do you know, science is on my side and botany agrees with me..

This:
www.biorxiv.org

Accumulation of somatic mutations leads to genetic mosaicism in Cannabis

Cannabis is typically propagated using stem cuttings taken from mother plants to produce genetically uniform propagules. However, producers anecdotally report that clonal lines deteriorate over time and eventually produce clones with less vigour and lower cannabinoid levels than the original...
www.biorxiv.org www.biorxiv.org

And this:
www.sciencedaily.com

Why plant 'clones' aren't identical

A new study of plants that are reproduced by 'cloning' has shown why cloned plants are not identical. Scientists have known for some time that 'clonal' (regenerant) organisms are not always identical. Now researchers believe they have found out why this is the case in plants: the genomes of...
www.sciencedaily.com
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Oh thx for the read!!! And nobody’s not on your side?? Lol However this read wasn the greatest lol. I read all that just to find out clones are not identical. There not even clones really. But why? Answer. I don’t know. Lmfao.
 
DrOgkush

DrOgkush

Well-Known Member
I pretty much went down most of the list last night and whatever I could find this morning before work. That article your provided was pretty much it. Everything else is very limited. But enough for me to understand where your coming from. However clones are still same as the doner plant Non of the at changes. But dna can split with maturity and when small amounts of stress and bad environments.(cutting high humidity and added hormones I’d assume) Dna splits do occurs leading to mutations. Now your freak plant with terps you never had before. You should of documented that for science. There is absolutely nothing that deep into the study.
That’s impressive. Terps are not a mutations. That’s underlying genetics. So that would be interesting to see if by what you did differently. You promoted the plants to use terps they wouldn usually? Idk. I’m rambling Sorry
 
Lenin1917

Lenin1917

Well-Known Member
Depends. I've had to flip early to finish before a lease ended and the few that were still seedlings vegged for another 2-3 weeks before showing. Mostly though everything shows within a couple days so it ends up being easier to count from flip.
 
Thundercat

Thundercat

Well-Known Member
Lenin1917 said:
Depends. I've had to flip early to finish before a lease ended and the few that were still seedlings vegged for another 2-3 weeks before showing. Mostly though everything shows within a couple days so it ends up being easier to count from flip.
Click to expand...
It actually doesn’t depend at all.

Plants won’t flower until they are mature, and flowering begins once the plant starts forming flowers. Not some made up date when the lights got flipped.

It might be “easier to count from flip”, but easier has nothing to do with plant biology. Plants don’t care if it would be easier, they flower when they are ready to.

Just like they finish when they finish not based off a calendar.

If you were to keep accurate tracking you would find that the ACTUAL flower time of a mother and a clone grown in the same conditions will be very similar. It’s the length of transition from veg to flowering that can vary between them. However if the mother plant is mature in the first place there won’t be much difference in transition either.
 
Lenin1917

Lenin1917

Well-Known Member
Thundercat said:
It actually doesn’t depend at all.

Plants won’t flower until they are mature, and flowering begins once the plant starts forming flowers. Not some made up date when the lights got flipped.

It might be “easier to count from flip”, but easier has nothing to do with plant biology. Plants don’t care if it would be easier, they flower when they are ready to.

Just like they finish when they finish not based off a calendar.

If you were to keep accurate tracking you would find that the ACTUAL flower time of a mother and a clone grown in the same conditions will be very similar. It’s the length of transition from veg to flowering that can vary between them. However if the mother plant is mature in the first place there won’t be much difference in transition either.
Click to expand...
They'll stay in veg as long as you want though even when mature.
 
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